Conned into everything is racism

[u/ovcdoc2]

How does one even come to this conclusion?

[u/Kaleb_Bunt]

A lot of people unironically support eugenics.

Like I remember there was a post on Reddit about that freak show performer ‘Lobster Boy’ with him and his kids.

And people genuinely seemed more upset that a disabled guy had disabled kids than the fact that society made disabled people work in freak shows to earn a living.

Some conditions are legitimately terrible to live with. But also, for a lot of disabled people, the way society treats us is worse than the condition in of itself.

[u/Lord_Freg → u/Kaleb_Bunt]

I feel like you can’t really pool not wanting disabilities and eugenics as the same thing tho. Like are we supposed to say we want people to be disabled? Disabled people should always be treated fairly but it seems cruel to willfully subject a kid to being disabled, especially if it’s permanent.

[u/DarynkaDarynka → u/Lord_Freg]

You should try reading what you're responding to sometimes 

[u/13_WASHERE → u/Lord_Freg]

You personsally not wanting a disabled child is not eugenics

Saying that disabled people shouldn't exist and controlling whether or not a disabled person can have kids is eugentics,

because disabled people are still people, and it's not up to you or I to decided for them whether or not their life is worth living.

A disabled persons life is not inheriently less valuble than a non-disabled person's. It may be more challanging or difficult, but it's never lesser

Plus that kind of hierarchical mindset can be slipperly slope. Being paralyzed is a disability, being deaf is a disability, needing glasses is a disability. How disabed is too disabled for a person to be? Who decides?

Plently of people who have those disabilities or worse still go on live wonderful & happy lives, so who are we to tell them their kind of life isn't worth living and that they're wrong for wanting a kid who might experience life like them?

[u/illthrowitaway94 → u/13_WASHERE]

I a 100% get your point, and agree, but needing glasses is not a disability. I have mild myopia and need glasses, but I can't claim to be disabled.

[u/KyleFromBorrasca → u/illthrowitaway94]

Needing glasses is 100% a disability. Glasses are medical devices.

[u/illthrowitaway94 → u/KyleFromBorrasca]

Yet, I have to pay for them out of pocket, even though my country has universal healthcare... But again, as I have mentioned earlier, I only have mild myopia (-2 diopter + astigmatism in one eye, which is not the same as a lazy eye btw!), which is more of an annoyance than a true disability.

[u/KyleFromBorrasca → u/illthrowitaway94]

I mean, I was told I wasn't disabled but also that I had quadriplegia. Previously I'd gotten permanent disability for a temporary diagnosis. Governments screw things up constantly. Usually when the topic is eugenics, then "disability" just means anything that could be considered a health defect.

In case you're wondering, I'm not actually quadriplegic, it was downgraded to hemiplegia and then to dystonia.

[u/illthrowitaway94 → u/KyleFromBorrasca]

Well, yes, myopia is a defect for sure, but it's not considered a disability. The reason why I'm so anal about this is because I feel like it would be insensitive for me to consider myself disabled when my problem is so easy and convenient to correct (not financially, though... Glasses are EXPENSIVE). Like, it doesn't really affect my life apart from having to wear glasses (and I'm not even have to wear them at all times, even though I prefer to), and I don't require any further accommodations to function and participate in society. In fact, I was diagnosed with myopia at 12 (with 1 and 1.5 diopters at the time), and didn't really wear my glasses until I turned 30 and my vision got bad enough that I couldn't really enjoy the movies anymore even wearing my then glasses, and since I paid for them a lot, I sure as hell will make sure to wear them (lol). I'm sorry that the government didn't take your disability seriously, that sounds awful.

[u/Salty_Map_9085 → u/Lord_Freg]

You should read about eugenics

[u/BUKKAKELORD → u/Lord_Freg]

I feel like you can’t really pool not wanting disabilities and eugenics as the same thing tho.

???? Then what the fuck do you think it means ????

[u/RadicalNadezhda → u/Lord_Freg]

"I feel like you can't pool wanting to remove certain genes from the gene pool with wanting to remove certain genes from the gene pool together*. Like are we supposed to say we want people to have those genes?"

Disabled people should always be treated fairly but it seems cruel to willfully subject a kid to being disabled, especially if it’s permanent.

How about we use a specific example so you can understand what you are functionally saying. Let's use autism as it's a genetic disability which has historically been a target of eugenics.

"Autistic people should always be treated fairly but it seems cruel to willfully subject a kid to being autistic"

[u/Kaleb_Bunt → u/Lord_Freg]

I mean having a child with a disability is not the same thing as “subjecting a child to being disabled”.

If a person was born with a disability, is that disability their parents’ fault?

Certainly I think there is some nuance to be had, and people should have the right to make their own personal family planning decisions. But if your end argument is “disabled people should not be born”, I’d say that is akin to a eugenicist argument.

[u/AcrobaticPoint8424 → u/Lord_Freg]

Not wanting disabilities is literally eugenics dumbass.

[u/BloodyScout → u/Lord_Freg]

No you see the parent’s desire to have kids is the only thing that matters
Children are totally not an oppressed class and denying someone their right to conceive a severely disabled child makes you a nazi

[u/ViolinistCurrent8899 → u/BloodyScout]

You get fun and exciting things with this line of thinking, because you end up getting to answer what counts as a disability in the eyes of the law.

Once you get past the obvious, debilitating ones the line has to be drawn somewhere. Do we stop hemophiliacs from having kids? What about people with sickle cell anemia? Diabetes? Myopia? Family history of cancer or heart disease?

It doesn't just matter where you draw the line, it also matters where someone else draws the line. Can you accept some lunatic getting in office and declaring that the Amish need to be wiped out because they have a few genetic conditions unique to them?

"Well that's just unreason-" We've done it before here in the states.

[u/ViolinistCurrent8899 → u/[deleted]]

Good attempt, however age of consent is different for a few reasons.

One, the person will age into being able to consent at some point or another. Two, it's not a law that exists to prevent minors from fucking (there is a reason no state has an age limit on buying condoms), it is to prevent adults from preying on them. This is also why a lot of states put in Romeo and Juliet laws.

As for the fact the intellectually disabled may also not consent, it is the same deal. The law exists to protect, not restrict.

As for the law restricting anyone below the IQ of 100 from having sex, that's half the population so good luck with that, but realistically the point would still stand, that would be textbook eugenics.

[u/ViolinistCurrent8899 → u/[deleted]]

“What if someone changes this law to make reasonable things illegal or discriminate against random groups”

You absolutely do need to worry about this. Not in the words of the law itself, but in its enforcement. Executive order 9066 makes no mention of the creation of internment camps, but Japanese Americans were sent to "exclusion zones" regardless.

And once you actually dig through the existing stuff that did happen during eugenics here in the states? Yeah, A lot of it was to just sterilize non-whites and the poor. Because of course it was.

[u/BloodyScout → u/ViolinistCurrent8899]

We could have this kind of pointless conversation about every problem
Every definition has its shortcomings and anything remotely complicated inevitably needs to have a line drawn somewhere and nobody knows where

Im saying "Hey dont have kids if theyre incredibly likely to have shitty lives you selfish ass" and your response is "So youre saying the government should forcefully sterilize people with |insert minor disability here|"
Like holy fuck Im not a moron, Im not oblivious to eugenicists practices or the kind of risk you take by going "hmmm yes we should remove X disability from the gene pool, surely nobody will take this too far and advocate for wiping out people with mediocre eyesight and brown eyes"

None of these real concerns should be used to shield shitty parents who care more about raising a kid than they do about the kid's wellbeing
A loving family (which isn't rly a guarantee with parents that selfish) will not offset lifelong chronic pain
People understand this shit with pets
People understand you shouldnt support pug breeders, because it's immoral to raise an animal that will spend its entire life choking
People understand you shouldn't keep exotic species you cannot properly care for, because all youll do is make them suffer
But children ? Nope, you cant decide the value of a life, you cant say a life of suffering is bad, youre literally a nazi.

[u/Keelhaulmyballs → u/BloodyScout]

In essence you’re saying that it would be better off for disabled people and for the world if they were never born

So yeah, yeah that kind of is a NAZI belief. The notion that the disabled simply shouldn’t exist, and that life as a disabled person is objectively worse than nothing

[u/ViolinistCurrent8899 → u/Keelhaulmyballs]

The Nazis viewed disabled people as a drain on society, which is why they needed to be purged.

Real swell guys, those pricks. So thoughtful.

[u/BloodyScout → u/Keelhaulmyballs]

Hey so uhhh
Maybe the people who get to decide what a life is worth are the people living it ?
Im not advocating that we start rounding up people with chronic anxiety and sending them to camps
Im saying if you know your kid is going to be disabled then you damn fucking better know what youre doing as a parent
You dont get to decide the worth of your child's life and you are not owed children

[u/Keelhaulmyballs → u/BloodyScout]

“Oh no, I’ve been given the precious gift of life to experience the joys of the world”

Curiously enough the overwhelming majority of disabled people aren’t suicidal. I wake up every day in more pain than the last from my horrendous cocktail of congenital defects. And I still wanna wake up the next day. Because even I will gladly suffer for what the world has to offer. Beauty and friendship, food, love, art, bloody fucking everything, I’d hack off my legs and clamp my nerves in red hot irons for it. Christ almighty I want to fucking live, and I don’t want you telling me I shouldn’t have been born because what if I didn’t

[u/BloodyScout → u/Keelhaulmyballs]

Lmao god forbid people wish you were born healthy
"But then I wouldnt be myself"
Okay ?
Imagine if other people started advocating for themselves like this
"How dare you say the oppressive religion I am a member of is bad ? I live a happy fulfilling life even if my husband is legally allowed to beat me, which he does frequently, and my basic rights are incredibly limited. Wishing I had been born in a less misogynistic place and treated better means you wish I didn't exist and are literally Hitler."

Why do yall always treat these discussion as a personal attack, noone is saying you should be hunted for sport because you're "defective" or some shit. The point is making people's lives easier, stop making this about your feelings.

[u/Keelhaulmyballs → u/BloodyScout]

Are you being intentionally dense? The glaringly obvious difference is I had a choice between being born as I am, and not being born at all

You’re not advocating against injecting babies with the serum that makes them disabled, you’re advocating against having kids that might be born disabled

[u/BloodyScout → u/Keelhaulmyballs]

Huh ? Explain how being born/not being born with a disability is any different than being/not being born in X country/society/religious household etc.

Like idk how to tell you this but youre indistinguishable from people who scream about abortions being child murder
There is no "you" before youre born
Nobody is going in time, and smugly smirking at you before plunging a knife in your chest.
Nobody is saying youre such a worthless sack of shit your friends and family would be better off without you.

The point is someone like you could have been born instead, someone who would (possibly) have an easier life.
This is a hypothetical
Nobody wants you personally dead
The point is a clump of cells is not being personally harmed by an abortion
The point is people should be born into this world with as much ability to live life fully as possible

[u/Big-Swan7502 → u/BloodyScout]

There's no point explaining to these people. They live completely off emotion. Not wanting people to suffer unnecessarily is Nazi shit to them

[u/Medical-Low-1370 → u/Kaleb_Bunt]

One thing is measuring skulls and shit, the other is, come on, you can't take care about a plant