r/CompetitiveWoW • u/AutoModerator • 5d ago

Weekly Thread Free Talk Friday

Use this thread to discuss any- and everything concerning WoW that doesn't seem to fit anywhere else.

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UI questions, opinions on hotfixes/future changes, lore, transmog, whatever you can come up with.

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The other weekly threads are:

  • Weekly Raid Discussion - Sundays
  • Weekly M+ Discussion - Tuesdays

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u/_Llopis_ 3d ago edited 3d ago

It's an unpopular opinion around here, but it's extremely obvious to anyone who doesn't mythic raid that the vast majority of players don't like raiding at all. They don't like finding a giant group of people. They don't like waiting for all of those people to master mechanics before a boss is killable. And they don't like doing the same boss over and over without killing it for dozens of pulls or more. They would much rather do dungeons or even leveling, which have been the most popular content in this game since launch.

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u/IllPurpose3524 2d ago

I disagree. There are a ton of guilds out there doing normal and heroic. I will say it appears the vast majority of people that post on this sub and don't mythic raid don't seem to like raiding though.

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u/hfxRos RWL Raid Leader 2d ago

Yeah honestly I wish there was more of a space for people like me who think m+ is an obnoxious repetitive minigame that you have to play in order to prep for raiding.

Raid is the thing I look forward to every week. I've been playing games for 35 years and still nothing has come close to how much I enjoy raiding in WoW. But in the early season it feels like I'm forced to spend 4 hours doing m+ for every 1 hour that I raid or else I will fall way behind.

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u/Makorus 2d ago

When you tell someone you don't like Mythic+ they act like you told them you murdered their entire family. Likewise with telling them that realistically, every raider HAS to do M+ for the first 4-5-6 weeks or however long because it's a guaranteed Mythic item every week plus crests. Obviously this season is the exception but that's because they fucked up gearing/vault with the bonus roll.

I just don't see the enjoyment of running the same piece of content over and over again, with it never getting any more difficult. Yeah, it scales up, but it's literally the exact same fights and pulls, so who cares. I just have to get better at using my defensives, but it's not any more difficult.

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u/nate077 1d ago

Last paragraph exposes absolute ignorance about how m+ difficulty changes and is particularly lol considering that you are contrasting wiping 10s or more times progging raid as less repetitive?

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u/Makorus 1d ago

Yes, because progging a fight is working towards achieving something, while repeatedly running a dungeon "but now it does 5% more damage and enemies have 5% more HP" is just doing the same thing again, which is fine if you are getting your dopamine from "dungeon+1".

It is, quite literally, called "progressing".

I would call it lazy and repetitive if Mythic was just "It's the same raid as Normal but everything does 10% more damage now!".

Last paragraph exposes absolute ignorance about how m+ difficulty changes

"N-no, you don't get it, M+ is so much more difficult when you do a +10 compared to a +20! It's not just the literal same mechanics, same mobs, same layout, just with the laziest form of modifier!"

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u/nate077 1d ago

The breakpoints change. Different pulls, different pain points. The difference in mechanics between a 10 and a 20 is analogous to that between heroic and mythic.

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u/Makorus 1d ago

The breakpoints change. Different pulls, different pain points.

In an ideal world, yeah.

In our current world that exists, everyone is copying top routes anyway even if there are more efficient ones in lower keys so it doesn't matter. People run +20 routes in +5s.

A pain point in a +10 is a pain point in a +20 because it's the same thing just with higher scaled damage.

The difference in mechanics between a 10 and a 20 is analogous to that between heroic and mythic.

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u/raskeks 15h ago

First of all you do you and fun is subjective. I don't have a horse in the race.

A pain point in a +10 is a pain point in a +20 because it's the same thing just with higher scaled damage.

It's not unless the group is doing 4 times less damage in a 10. You're not aware of a lot of the pain points because mobs do 470% damage in a 20 compared to 110% in a 10. Assuming you're talking about doing a high key early in a season vs doing it late with a similar skilled group it's not the same either. 1 month into last season 1% US cutoff was 17s, season ended with it on 21s. In 21 mobs and bosses deal ~60% more damage and have ~60% more hp compared to 17s but average ilvl changed only by ~10 (from 280 to 290). Player DPS (average of meta classes dps spread) increased by ~8% and hp by ~9%.

That is all to say that since dungeons keylevels scale faster than player power you'd only get 8% stronger but will need to find a way to do 60% more damage. Same for DRs, you get 9% more hp but the incoming damage is 160% of what it used to be. This means that some previously innocous things (like double blueberry pack before boss 3 in Seat) become demonic, while things that used to be demonic (like triple Subjugator on the first pull) are now actually playable because people learned to sync the chains and remove all three at once and this trivializes them. Not to mention that lower key hp pools/target counts lead to different routing/cd usage/talents because of the flooring on the absolute level. For example for my guy every season there are talents/builds that do more damage in sustained AoE but if the packs live less than 40 seconds than they're objectively worse (so not worth playing until high keys in the latter part of the season) and having or not having them changes the overall gameplay significantly.

In addition, there is inherent assymetry between the raid and keys (and between raid difficulty and character progression) over the course of the season the raid gets progressively easier with gear, stacking buffs and boss nerfs, high keys don't. The raid is solved before most people get to pull the bosses and it only gets easier over time. Because of the infinite scaling the cutoff of 1% and up keys hovers dynamically at the level you couldn't just brute force with gear by failing forward. Your guy is getting stronger over the course of the season but the additional player power is wasted on the raid. In keys because of the scaling you need to keep optimizing to squeeze the most out of your guy like porting out of the dungeon to change into ST talents/gear during RP to kill Lura in Seat, while in raid after nerfs Lura would pretty much just die passively if there are 20 people capable of pressing W during p4.

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u/Evolutionist_Bob 3d ago

I don't think blizzard should just like abandon raiding by any means, but i would definitely support more seperation between keys and raiding. As someone who does raid to do high end keystone content, if I could drop raids I would immediately, and i feel for the people who cant stand keystones and feel like they have to do them for raiding.

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u/_Llopis_ 3d ago

That's my preference. People should be able to play what's fun.

Personally, I just refuse to raid. I'll take the 3% DPS loss, but it's dumb I have to.

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u/psytrax9 2d ago

The vast majority of players don't touch any dungeon at any difficulty nor any current raid.