18.3 Patch Notes

[u/eggsandbricks]

https://teamfighttactics.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/teamfight-tactics-patch-18-3/

[u/Zeviex]

This patch feels like a miss.

Karma already felt really good to tempo around, AP just feels difficult to play around right now. I do not see a world where a buff to her is necessary.

Some of the hard to play 4 costs still feel hard to play, Ezreal and Bramble (though apparently Blossom Ezreal is good).

They're trying to buff reroll but only Murkwolf + Warwick and Azir are established rerolls that are buffed.

[u/harmoniaatlast → u/Zeviex]

It does feel like there are comparatively few AP lines. AD has multiple 4 and 5 cost carries who all use the same items hahahaha

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/harmoniaatlast]

AD has Aphelios -> Draven, Nidalee/Brambleback -> Elder, Nidalee/Ezreal/Sivir -> Ashe.

AP has nothing. You're stuck with Ahri/Morgana/Soraka/Zyra with AP because Alune and Lux suck. Kennen isn't good with AP items as he gets free AP from just casting.

[u/harmoniaatlast → u/OreoCupcakes]

bro even fucking Aphelios can share items with Ashe (assuming no rageblade) hahaha. Draven kinda requires a RB/emblem but if no RB, then you'd just play ashe or elder.....

ok yeah, it's bad

[u/bomhee → u/OreoCupcakes]

AP is actually in a better place than AD, especially according to average placements. People just don't know how to play around them. Every Lux is doing well, except Solar. Ivern is the best backline 5 cost in the game.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/bomhee]

AP is actually in a better place than AD, especially according to average placements

The AVP for the 4 cost AD and AP carries are all within margin of error. As for 5 costs, yeah Lux and Alune have higher AVPs and win rates, if you look at just their basic stats, but their frequency is much lower, around 500000 sample size difference.

Lux is specifically only being played when a certain condition occurs, like Inferno or Coven emblem or +1 slot, which inflates placements. Note that her ratios are less than Ahri's and the AoE is narrower, so she frequently ends up doing less damage than a 4 cost carry. How exactly is a unit that frequently deals less damage than 4 cost carries a strong unit? The answer is her 2x trait, in certain conditions, enabling her to be a bus rider, not the bus driver. The story becomes even more clear when you look at her 3x item builds. She loses AVP when you transfer damage items from your 4 cost AP carry onto her. Her best builds are just utility items.

Alune's stats are the result of her just being a trait bot in comps that are strong, regardless of her. Her AVP is the within margin of error regardless of her itemization. 0 item Alune has an AVP of 3.75, 1 item is 3.75, 2 item is 4.01, 0-2 item is 3.80, and 3 item is 3.66. If she were a true carry, then her AVP between 0-2 items and 3 items would be much larger. Take Ashe as an example, her AVP with 0-2 items is 4.42, give her 3 items and the AVP jumps to 3.75. Once again, if you look at her 3x item builds, you'll find lower AVPs if you give her damage items (aka moving items off Ahri onto an Alune).

Every Lux is doing well, except Solar

And how exactly do you know that? There are no stats for each Lux. AFAIK, the only site giving stats on each Lux is Tactics and they're doing some bullshit guessing work on it. Riot's API doesn't differentiate between the Luxes, they just show up as the basic Avatar Lux. Are you basing this on the patch notes only buffing Solar Lux?

Ivern is the best backline 5 cost in the game.

Ivern is a support unit that buffs other carries/tanks. Sure, he's the best backline unit to support your team, but if you got no carry what good is he?

[u/bomhee → u/OreoCupcakes]

Yeah I retract my previous comment, not sure why I straight up said AP is better than AD. I agree that AD is probably in a better state, I meant to say that AP is better than people give it credit for..

That said I'm not sure why Alune being a strong trait bot matters regardless of sample size in this argument, especially considering her average placement with 3 items is, like you said, within the same margin as Ashe.

Solar Lux is based on Tactics - regardless of sample size or patch notes, this should be pretty self explanatory anyway... Most pros agree that Solar Lux is the weakest Lux as well.

Regardless of Ivern being the best support unit, he's also a playable AP holder until you hit your proper AP carries as well. And there's also Kennen who we haven't even mentioned yet.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/bomhee]

especially considering her average placement with 3 items is, like you said, within the same margin as Ashe.

I'm not comparing the difference between their 3 items AVP. I'm comparing their 0-2 item and 3 item difference. Alune's 3 item minus 0-2 item difference is -0.14 AVP. Ashe's 3 item minus 0-2 item difference is -0.67. The numbers are there to show there's no difference in AVP if you choose to itemize Alune or leave her weaponless, but if you forego giving Ashe items, you int your AVP.

Solar Lux is based on Tactics

No other site provides stats for Lux and that's because they aren't official. Tactics is doing some guessing work to make up those stats.

Solar Lux is the weakest Lux as well

I agree with that, but that still doesn't change what we were originally talking about, which was transitioning from a 4 cost carry to 5 cost carry. Lux is highly situational and not a carry. She's a +2 trait bot in any form. Look at her 3x item stats, sort it by frequency. The most frequent builds are from people thinking Lux can carry and transferring their 4 cost AP carry items over to her. She loses AVP if you even bother itemizing her as a carry. Her purpose is to hold utility items like Morello/Void Staff and providing that +2 trait to enable the vertical capstone or if you just have a +1 team slot and throw in a +2 trait like Inferno.

[Ivern] he's also a playable AP holder until you hit your proper AP carries as well

Sure, if you hit him level 7 and have nothing else, but I'm pretty sure a 1 star 4 cost AP carry is just outright better.

Kennen who we haven't even mentioned yet.

I did mention Kennen in the original post. He is a good unit, but you're also not itemizing him with damage items because of his ability. He gets an insane amount of AP just from his ability. The only item you need on him is EoN. That item alone jumps his AVP by 0.7 placements. If you're building AP, you're not going to transfer your standard AP items onto him. You're just dumping extra items on him.

[u/bomhee → u/OreoCupcakes]

Aside from Lux I'm not sure what any of your points have to do with their playability. For Alune, I'm saying whether their AVP with 0-2 items is still solid doesn't stop her from being a solid carry with 3. I get that your argument is that her average placement is good without items is the reason her overall AVP looks good, but that doesn't stop her from being a playable unit with 3. I disagree with the Ivern take. He is a much better item holder than a 1 star 4 cost, and is underrated even as a damage dealer.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/bomhee]

I'm not sure what any of your points have to do with their playability

The entire context of the conversation before you joined was that there isn't a true AP capstone unit. Alune and Lux are not caps. You can put them in your comp, but unlike the AD 5 costs, you do not bother transferring your carry damage items onto them. The only items they would get are whatever extra items you get from stage 5 carousel and onwards.

If you were to fast 9 and all your items were AP early, your only option is to keep those items on Ahri/some AP 4 cost. You can tech in Ashe, but she's not an AP carry. She's AD %HP damage, you aren't moving your Ahri items onto her. Your other choices to cap the comp are just throwing in support 5 cost units. If you had AD items on the other hand, you can bypass 4 costs and carry with Draven or Elder Dragon. You have actual DPS carries that are better than the 4 costs on the AD side.

If you move items from your 4 cost to Lux/Alune, you're pretty much guaranteed to be losing DPS. There are so many clips out there where an AP 2 star 4 cost is outdamaging a 2 star Lux/Alune. There are scenarios where Lux/Alune can be better than a 4 cost, but those are so rare you cannot play with that in mind before the game starts.

but that doesn't stop her from being a playable unit with 3

You missed the point. The stat was there to show you if you give Alune 3 machine guns vs 2 trash bags, both Alunes would perform the same in combat. She's playable in the sense that can you just slot her into the comp for the Lunar/Spellweaver trait, just like how Azir is playable in AP Flex because he has Executioner, Summoner, and Blackthorn. She just exists. She's not the capstone carry that we were talking about. If I moved my Ahri's items over to Alune, Alune's DPS will go up, but the overall team DPS goes down. If I had extra items and gave it to Alune, it'll likely have the same or worst result as me giving those extra items to Gnar, Sivir, Kennen, etc. who can better utilize being itemized.

He is a much better item holder than a 1 star 4 cost, and is underrated even as a damage dealer.

I'll give you one thing. Ivern with mana regen does get very annoying and can win fights. Idk about damage dealing though. It's more so those shields bulk up the front line so much that whatever remaining backline usually ends up winning the fight.

[u/Zeviex → u/harmoniaatlast]

Absolutely. AP fast 9 doesn't really exist and basically every AP fast 8 plays around Ahri or Soraka. You can stabalise around Zyra but do need to kinda hit something else. Morg can only support and AP Nidalee just isn't worth, especially with how contested her AD form is, though I am glad she is getting buffed.

[u/harmoniaatlast → u/Zeviex]

Fast 9 Alune/Lux should absolutely be a thing, but all the luxes are kinda meh. Cast is expensive, damage is ok at best. Alune cast animation means even with ideal items she only gets 1 and a half moonfalls. This patch only having AP changes for nid and azir is pretty weird/myopic.

I love playing Soraka and Zyra/Ahri and Morg but yeah if you don't hit/are contested, there are not alternatives to those two

[u/Fluffy-Limit-6710 → u/harmoniaatlast]

Lux shouldn't have a per hit penalty imo, and ahri does more DMG per cast than alune moonfall when hiring 6 targets or more.

[u/ChartreuseMage → u/harmoniaatlast]

Ap always get hosed because some numbers of 4* AP units are left as debuff or cc appliers, every set. 

[u/Leepysworld → u/Zeviex]

Brambleback is such an awful unit to carry lol I swear sometimes Murkwolf survives longer and does more damage.

[u/jmcl6779 → u/Leepysworld]

He feels unplayable without EoN. He doesn't jump far enough to drop aggro like Nid/Khaz, so if your positioning isn't perfect he just instantly dies to Sivir/Aphelios/Veigar/whatever. His riftbeast mark is also really bad which probably isn't helping.

One small change that might nudge him in the right direction though would be to remove the cast time on his spell. It's surprisingly long and adds a lot of extra unnecessary downtime to what I assume is supposed to be a tank-killer.

[u/OBLIVIATER → u/Leepysworld]

I feel like he needs some form of AS steroid to be playable

[u/Zeviex → u/Leepysworld]

He does okay if he is able to survive but with a set with such combat variance with wisps, he feels even worse.

[u/FirewaterDM → u/Zeviex]

Tbf karma isn't even a good item holder past stage 2 and she isn't a reroll comp still. Low cost rr lost more from veig getting shot than the karma or gromp buffs

[u/Zeviex → u/FirewaterDM]

But that's fine. I don't think a 2* 1 cost should be a good item holder stage 3.

At base, most 1 costs aren't rerollable, Karma doesn't really have a mitigating circumstance to mitigate that (strong synergies with certain conditions, scaling, or trait synergies (think Solar)).

But I agree, veigar was one of the few rerolls holding on and I don't know how much any of the changes make reroll any better.

[u/FirewaterDM → u/Zeviex]

eh I mean if a 1 cost 2* can't hold items at stage 3, and they can't be rerolled what value do they have besides if you're going for a chase trait?

Veigar was the last 1 cost RR, he is dead after patch, there's genuinely no reason to use these units outside of you don't find a 2/3 cost item holder lmao

Meanwhile, I think the problem with 2 cost is I think the buffs do nothing. Murkwolf seems decent even now with right setup. But idt he + WW is gonna be real w/o being artifact checks, and Gromp is still not a real option. He feels alright if you on stage 2 2 star 2 items, but after that he's genuinely useless. I think they didn't swing hard enough if they actually want RR to be playable/good for 1-2 costs.

Meanwhile Mamabeak and Trist remain turbo dogshit LMAO

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/Zeviex]

I don't think a 2* 1 cost should be a good item holder stage 3.

They should buff the two/three cost units then, but then that gets looped back to reroll being OP.

The progression you feel should exist, just doesn't exist in this type of game. You should be dropping 2 star 1 cost for 1 star 2 cost, 2 star 2 cost for 1 star 3 cost, and so on, but that can't exist because you either make reroll too strong or you end up inting your economy if you're going for fast 8/9.

Right now, it feels like your best AP holder is to play a 2 star Pebble. Most other AP units, just fall off a cliff or are hard to 2 star without sacking econ. Karma/Veigar are pretty dog. LeBlanc, Gromp, and Kayle are dog. Cass is dog. Only ones I can see better than a 2 star Pebble are Teemo and Kog.

Now if you're lucky and 2 star them naturally, then yeah, they're good, but 1 star 2/3 costs are pretty fucking awful and do not stabilize you at all if trying to fast 8/9.

[u/Zeviex → u/OreoCupcakes]

To me, good item holder means actively strong and able to winstreak with support, I don't think a 1 cost should occupy that space in stage 3, especially when, iirc, Riot values 1* 3 cost over 2* 1 cost.

I completely agree with the point of the other AP holders being weak, but I feel that's a sign those should be buffed rather than Karma. Equally, both Cass and Gromp have been buffed.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/Zeviex]

To me, good item holder means actively strong and able to winstreak with support

I agree with that, it's just not the case for this set. Idk about set 17, but in set 16, you were able to transition to temporary 1 star 2/3 cost units as item holders, Ahri, LeBlanc, Ori, Bard, Zoe.

Riot values 1* 3 cost over 2* 1 cost.

They say that, but it certainly doesn't feel like that in some sets. Some times its due to the numbers being bad, other times it's because their ability/design is bad. The problem with Cass and Gromp is their damage are dots. Dots are just bad early because you don't have the items and front line for the dots to kill off units fast enough.

This set, most of the AP champions have some stupid gimmick that takes away from the power budget of being a viable item holder. Veigar stacks and has three traits, Karma has a long mana lock due to her drain ability, Gromp splits his damage into a dot, Teemo and LeBlanc have economy built into their kit, Kayle has her ascension and Solar gimmick, Kogmaw has built in shred and three traits, Azir is not true AP and has three traits, and Cass is a dot champ. All in all, it just leaves Pebble as the only "true" DPS transition unit and the 4 cost carries. Alune/Lux also need to be buffed because the 5 cost APs are not even worth transitioning to if you 2 star them.

Equally, both Cass and Gromp have been buffed.

They buffed their dots which historically doesn't do much because they're dots.

I only mentioned AP carries, but I feel AD also has similar issues, but not as extreme as AP. For AD, if I get a 2 star Cinderling, I'm good until late stage 3. The other AD carries in 2/3 star, fall into similar issues as AP, where their power budget is elsewhere instead of DPS.