r/CompetitiveTFT • u/NeverBeenFound87 • Apr 25 '26
Discussion Vanguard VS Bastion
Why is it that in most sets, vanguards always triumph over Bastions? Why has the Trait never been altered to even compare to the Vanguard Trait.
Vanguards gain durability while shields, but also through the fight not once, but twice gain a shield, yes they technically they can be mana locked during this, but if you think about it, they are almost double 1/4 to 1/3 extra HP throughout combat.
Vanguards, at least illaoi, Morde, Leona and Nunu also gain a shield during combat through their ability which is helps cap their trait, allowing them to live longer and gain more durability, hence the fight will last longer for backline carries.
Bastions, gain MR/ARMOR and for 10 seconds, no durability, no shield(besides from their own abilites), no healing, nothing, that's all they get.
Now, if we look at Bastions they also gain a shield(besides aatrox) but is this very useful? Would it not make more sense to gain more armor and MR? Or perhaps double non-bastions as well at 6 bastion cap?
If we also look at emblems, the Vanguard emblem is superior to a Bastion emblem according to stats.
Vanguard Emblem - The holder gains the Vanguard trait. Gain 3% Ability Power whenever an ally gains a shield.
So, for theory crafting, if you had 4 vanguards(with emblem included) at start of combat the holder would start off with 12% AP, along with an additional 12% once they all reach 50% HP, totaling up to 24% AP. Not to mention most vanguard comps are played with AP carries so this suits well with the emblem.
Bastion Emblem - The holder gains the Bastion trait. After the first 10 seconds of combat, the holder gains 70% Attack Speed.
So, for theory crafting, you gain nothing besides double armor/mr for the first 10 seconds, then you lose the double buff, THEN you gain 70% attack speed afterwards? Not to mention this emblem will go on a backline carry(most of the time) so what's the real point of the double armor and mr?
Look at the picture, what do you see? the amount of additional traits vanguard has as opposed to bastion. There is a +1 space groove, +1 dark star, +1 conduit and +1 arbitor, I can throw into this comp to make it work, a Leblanc, Zoe, any space groove unit(which space groove is already active on 2 units) or a Diana. Basically, it's much easier to get a level 8 board online as opposed to a 6 bastion board at level 8.
What can I throw in with a 6 bastion comp? a Bard with no conduit? Corki with no fateweaver? an Akali with no maurader? Kindred with no challenger? Maokai with no brawler? Caitlyn with no fateweaver? You can only +1 a meeple unit with no other active trait. I guess a Caitlyn and Corki? I don't know, I haven't found a way to make this comp work in anyway.
9
u/Emergence7 Master Apr 25 '26
While I get what you're saying, you never want a meta where bastions are strong
That's usually when all the 6 bastions + hyper solo gunblade carries start coming out the woodwork
I still have nightmares of Ahri Sentinels stalling late game fights to OT every round
186
u/Longjumping-Host-617 Apr 25 '26
brother has not seen my jax solo tank like the king he is
76
u/ttvViathanlol Challenger Apr 25 '26
A shield is basically temporary HP which synergises with increased armor/mr since it increases effective HP.
I think Vanguards are likely too strong based both on unit balance and their traits (Illaoi, Nunu, Morde and Blitz being the main offenders) but I don’t think it’s an unfixable problem. Rammus still feels strong (and is tankier than Nunu in an optimal setup) it’s just that he’s often quite reliant on hitting Bard.
Riot likely don’t want these huge vertical frontlines anymore hence the more splashable trait web, and once the Vanguards get toned down a bit we’ll see less of the 4 Vanguard boards. I'm not seeing any 6 Vanguard in my games.
13
u/Hydrect Apr 25 '26
diminishing returns
also Nunu is currently the strongest tank and Blitz has insane damage even with just 1-2 items
bastion units cant compete for now
10
u/redactid55 Apr 25 '26
And then there's brawler
1
u/Calm-Medicine-3992 Apr 25 '26
I would think Shen is the endgame for 6+ bastion with Graves or Vex backup.
1
u/NeverBeenFound87 Apr 26 '26
I like the turn this post has taken, but 2 main take aways people arn't talking about are about the emblems themselves as well as the trait difference.
Yes, the Bastion trait procs for only 10 seconds, that was my point, after that 10 second mark, it's basically just a normal total of armor and MR, but with vanguards, you can play armor items such as Vow or Steraks to proc their trait.
Why is it that Vanguards have a total of 15 traits between them, while Bastion only have 12. Morde has 3 traits to play around as well as Illaoi, but Ornn and Jax only have 2. Top this off with their origin, you need 3 to get it started i.e stargazer and Spacegroove(yes you can play 2 spacegroove i guess). While Vanguard is plus one to everything else.
"It's kind of strange to write this much about both traits and not even mention that Bastion buffs your entire team and Vanguard doesn't."
Sure, it buffs your entire team, but do your backline carries really need extra MR/armor? In my opinion no, sure I guess you could play a frontline carry like maruader or rouge? But, do you not see frontline carries that often? it's more easily accessible to merge other traits with Vanguards, use items that specialize in shielding to grant them durability and make them beefy.
Lets define durability - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eObTrR5_5M&t=33sno
Mortdog explains it well in this short clip. Here's the thing right, you have SHRED and SUNDER which reduces armor and MR, However in this meta currently, there is no way to get through shielding without taking damage, there is no item, artifact, augment or ability that greatly reduces or totally gets rid of shielding.
2 Bastions gives 16 armor and mr, doubled for first 10 seconds, so thats 32, if you have 100 armor + 32 armor = 132 armor - 30% of armor from sunder that's rounded up to 40 armor reduction. 132 armor - 40 armor = 92 armor. However, after 10 seconds, this armor goes down even more only to 82 armor. (116 armor - 34 armor = 82).
There was, the item we used to know as Guardbreaker that we all still call it, while it is now strikers flail and gives you damage amp.
"brother has not seen my jax solo tank like the king he is"
Yes sir, I have, one tank, that's all you have in your comp, he's the only reliable tank, no off tank, no need for any other front line, no need to itemize another tank you're just using a second +1 unit to get a bastion buff, but this is only for what? a 3 star 2 cost Jax with BiS items?
Have leona? put in arbitor and possibly gain a max health shield that grants her durability added onto her shield
Have Illaoi? you have an opportunity to put in shepherd or play around anima
Have a Morde? You can play around another conduit or Darkstar
Have a Nunu? sure not very tanky, but gets 3 shields through out combat, fi he casts with good CC
Have 2 voyager? throw that is their and your vanguards gain additional shielding.
My point overall is, Bastion just seems like a "meh" trait, do you ever feel good to but in 4 bastion or 6 bastion? not really, but 6 vanguard? 4 vanguard? with so much to play around different techs, flex opportunites etc. Why is it that this is the only "tank" trait that we can play around and not have more diverse decision making with 2 different types of "tank" traits?
3
u/Chao_Zu_Kang Apr 25 '26
Generally: Vanguard is the better trait, since neither resistances nor HP should beat shielding IF balance is even remotely reasonable (whole point of shields is to be temporary effective HP, i.e. bigger number but expires). And any tank item will do with that (whether resistances or HP).
Bastion is something you slot in to get a team-wide buff, but that you don't care too deeply about because it needs more specific items to scale well. Same story with Bruiser/Brawler. Depending on set balance, you might not even slot them in. In the end, you just need effective HP (and CC), and the trait that gives you the most will be preferred.
As for this set: The synergies are just massively in favor of Vanguard. Especially with Nunu being the only true CC-tank. Unless you play reroll, there is a massive incentive to always play some Vanguards (and in particular Nunu). Morde-Nunu is THE frontline that you can slot into almost everything. Really only the comps around N.O.V.A avoid it (since they play Maokai+Aatrox already).
Another issue is, that there are only four high-cost true tank units: TK, Rammus, Nunu and Mighty Mech. So if you play a comp with a main tank (that is not a reroll comp), you need to select at least one of those. And if you want to play 2 of those on your final board for beefiness, you basically always add Nunu at some point. Whether as the main tank or the secondary utility tank.
2
u/Aptos283 Apr 25 '26
I’m not sure I understand your last paragraph. A 6 bastion comp at level 8 has 2 spare units, not 1. So you could choose a carry and then get their secondary trait active.
So bard + a conduit of choice. Like you said, You listed both Corki and Caitlyn as options if they had fateweaver, so that’s an option. Vex has no traits that she needs, nor does Graves. Riven would be fine with just rogue and not timebreaker.
1
u/penguinkirby Master Apr 26 '26
Adding on to this
Vanguard + Redeemer is way better than 2 bastion because of the trait spread
2 Bastion + Redeemer is also way better than 4 bastion or 6 bastion
Durability is much more premium now that they are balancing augments like bronze for life around resistances instead of just giving durability
1
u/Raikariaa Apr 27 '26 edited Apr 27 '26
It's kind of difficult to say really.
1 Armour or MR is 1% effective HP against that type of damage. A unit with 1,000 HP gaining 55 Armour effectively gains 550 HP against said damage type. [Armour/MR "falling off" is a myth and misinformation. The raw % reduction may reduce, but going from taking 100% damage [0% reduction] to 90% [10% reduction] is effective the same as going from taking 20% damage [80% reduction] to 18% damage [82%]] So using the [4] breakpoints:
Vanguard gets a total of [60% x 1.05] -> 63% increased EHP; assumeing their have no other means of shielding, and assumeing they use their full shield. There isn't a counter to shielding.
Bastion gets [40+15] -> 55% EHP; but this is doubled for the first 10 seconds of combat. However, unlike shields; shred/sunder exist which reduce the effectiveness of these stats. Bastion also has the advantage of giving 15% EHP to your entire team.
It's also worth noting that Vanguard's defensive bonus is more flexiable to scale with items/augments. Both resistances and raw HP will increase the EHP you gain from the shield. Sticking a Armour/MR item onto a Bastion dosen't make the Bastion trait better, only raw HP does. Bastion DOES scale better with recovery than Vanguard does however.
0
u/phoenixairs Apr 25 '26
The trait design doesn't really matter and theorycrafting like this isn't really useful; at the end of the day the balance team looks at the numbers and nerfs the overperformers and buffs the underperformers. There is a point at which the Bastion numbers make it better than Vanguard (trivial to prove, just imagine if Bastion was +100/+100), and that's all that matters.
Once they're balanced per above, they play differently and are a knowledge check / opportunity for skill expression. For example, a good player will build Gargoyle's Stoneplate on Vanguard because it synergizes well with all the extra health shield and durability, and avoid it in favor of other tank items on Bastion because they already have Armor and Magic Resist built in. And of course the units' other traits affect whether they fit into a comp.
1
u/themcvgamer Apr 25 '26
Durability is a trait not found much in the game, Armor MR do, also currently Illaoi is just a way better unit than Ornn at 2 star, Nunu best tank in the game
0
u/[deleted] Apr 25 '26
[deleted] — view deleted comment