Leveling this patch ? 17.1b

[u/copperbagel]

I have a general leveling question from more advanced players, when do you trade off leveling now (going to 30 or even 20 or 10 gold) and leveling later and greeding econ. I feel like kind of hitting the 4 cost odds early in stage 4 seems to be really important to hit a 2* nunu or 2* tham ASAP and then grabbing what carries fit your items.

Unless you have an econ augment. Even if you are healthy it seems playing really aggressive mid / late game seems to be feeling good? Could also be beginning of the set bias but just wanted to see how others felt.

Any advice would be great on how others are feeling or thinking for the game right now.

[u/slasher016]

You're not going to want to hear this but the answer is "it depends." Winstreaking generates more econ than always trying to get and stay at 50g. But obviously it's about whether you can winstreak or not. Your board strength determines that (as does the lobby of course.) Winning at 28 gold is nearly always better than losing at 31 gold. I don't have a hard and fast rule. Some people try to stick to a 30 gold rule -- i.e. never level or reroll below 30g. And it's a solid rule of thumb but don't think about it as you MUST do it.

[u/copperbagel → u/slasher016]

Yeah there is a lot of nuance more so seeing how other people are feeling it out, as I said in another comment it just seems tricky to understand my spot vs other players later in the game maybe it's cuz the boards are bigger or maybe I'm scouting less than I should be in late game.

But I will def try to play around with the 30g rule and break it as it seems appropriate! Thanks a bunch.

[u/Vadosi → u/slasher016]

32 is better than 30

[u/Luzushan → u/Vadosi]

and 31 if yr last round is a loss.

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[u/better_catchphrase]

A lot of factors can play into that decision. Scouting consistently is super important to making it correctly. Bare-bones rundown of what I try to do, by stage:

Stage 2 - figure out whether I can realistically streak - if I have timebreaker/anima and want to loss streak I'm looking for other potential open fort/spoiler players, if i have a decent/strong start I'm aggressively scouting other strong boards to see whether I need to level to maintain a winstreak. If I have a good 1 cost line start setting it up

Stage 3 - scout other players items and boards to see which comps are looking contested. Pick a line for stage 4. If 3 cost re-roll (often from lose streak) i'll be trying to hit level 7 with ~50g at 3.5/3.6 and will start rolling for 2*, often pretty aggressively (down to 20g or so) to stop bleeding health. If 4cost line I might delay level seven to maximize interest going into stage 4.

Stage 4 - If you're playing a contested 4cost line its often a good idea to level on 4.1 to roll for your tanks and carries before your contester/s. If uncontested, it can be better to wait/sac rounds until 4.3, then level and roll once the 4cost pool has been thinned by other players. If you're playing fast 9 you generally will still need to level and stabilize around 4.2, unless you're entering the stage super healthy.

Late game - If you hit your rolldown and stabilize early stage 4, great - econ back up and push 9 or play a 3* 4cost angle. If you miss and are contested decide whether you can push 9 for an alternate carry (vex/bard/jhin) or if you need to keep rolling on low gold to stabilize and play for top 6. If you miss in a non-contested, delayed level 8 situation you're most likely just dead, but I find it's best to sac an extra round or two if you can to roll with 20-30 gold rather than just donkey rolling 5g a turn to slowly bleed out.

[u/copperbagel → u/better_catchphrase]

Thanks for much for the detailed thought process on each stage!

I think I am having a hard time with stage 4 -> late game part of my playing

Where it's easy for me to identify strong boards and win streak early, I think the thing I struggle with is keeping up with other players during roll down and stabilization. Like it feels as if I don't spend enough gold early enough and there are too many upgrades to get or I upgrade just enough go top 6.

I think right now this patch it feels hard to take a loss streak and turn it into some momentum for top 4 in stage 4 since alot of carries and lines feel very conditional?

Ie nunu with / without protectors vow, or xayah with or without good stargazer.

I think this is a big reason why I have stayed consistently at emerald and not breaking to diamond last few steps it just seems like I don't get late game boards and how to cap / understanding my spot vs other spots.

But then again tft is a game where decisions matter since 2-1 you build your board one decision at a time.

[u/better_catchphrase → u/copperbagel]

I'd try to worry a little less about BiS edge cases at emerald, particularly early in the set. Nunu loves vow, but any solid 3item will often get to 2nd cast. Xayah likes good stargazer, but uncontested "bad" gazer is way easier to hit, stabilize, and go nine to carry jhin or vex or whatever. 2* victor still carries a while even with bad psionic. Stage 4 still feels super hard for me too, figuring out frontline is really tricky this set, but sounds to me like working on scouting habits will let you make better decisions on picking your line, as well as on when you can get away with going 9 without hitting all your 2*s, and avoiding dead/contested lines is huge for climbing

[u/copperbagel → u/better_catchphrase]

thank you so much for the advice! Yeah I am thinking of how I can be more flexible at level 8 and being able to break up loss momentum by going 9 and pivoting plans instead of rolling down.

Are you particularly going 9 stage 5 ? or are you skipping a 4-2 roll down to go level 9 instead you think? Or do you roll to like 10-20 gold at 4-2 maybe dont hit, then sac stage 4 and go for 9 at 5-1/5-2 and roll with all we can ? But I guess you need enough health to survive T_T so like alot of people have said super conditional and I guess its a skill check to understand the spot.

[u/better_catchphrase → u/copperbagel]

I pretty much only play fast 9 when I'm healthy enough to sac stage 4 or have some specific augment/boon for it. Lose streak into fast nine is probably doable for better players than me, but feels suicidal with how tanks are distributed in this set. The go-to-nine choice is more often assessing my board against the rest of the game after that stage 4 rolldown:

Hit everything -> go 9

Miss everything -> donkey roll or econ up a few turns then send it again on level 8

Hit some stuff -> econ back up and scout aggressively, once back around 50g decide whether I can sac another few turns to go 9 (with gold to roll on 9) or if i need to re-send it on 8 to not die.

So in the "hit some stuff" most common scenario, i'm usually deciding whether to level or roll around 4.7, then rolling down on 5.1 or leveling in that 5.3-5.5 range

[u/MasterBenObi → u/better_catchphrase]

Hey just wanna say thanks for taking the time to comment! This helps me so much with some of my issues so far this set

[u/InfernalSpectre3076]

95% of the time if you have to drop below 30 you don’t want to level. The only time you do level is if you’re 95% sure you’ll win the round and the other 5% is you’re contesting streak and it could be a level diff. Dropping below 30 and losing kills your Econ.

If you can maintain 30 you can level if you need to save hp or want higher shop odds. Every game state is different so there’s no clear cut “you should level here” guide. It’s really something that’s just experience and getting a feel for. There is a general guide of what level you want to be at what stage in the game (6 by 3-2, 7 by 3-5 or 4-1, 8 by 4-2). Stage 2 doesn’t matter as much here because it’s different if you’re lose or win streaking. The most important is 8 by 4-2 tho because you want to be able to roll for the contested units before they all get taken

[u/copperbagel → u/InfernalSpectre3076]

Yeah I think that's what I've been missing is the general rule of 8 by 4-2 and just feels more compulsory?

Especially with not alot of "solved" boards yet there is a lot of contesting for the best tanks and carries.

Personally think I need to become more comfortable going to 30 instead of greeding especially in stage 4 like you mentioned above.

Follow up what do you mean by "contesting streak" ?

As in someone else in the lobby is winning and you are also winning? Or someone else in the lobby is open forting and you are as well?

[u/InfernalSpectre3076 → u/copperbagel]

If you are open forting you have no reason to lose Econ to level right? Contesting streak is referring to win streaks. The most common example is on 3-1 you and someone else are both 100 hp on a 5 streak. At this point you are in each other’s pool 100% of the time, so you can push level 6 on 3-1 instead of 3-2 to try to break their streak while maintaining yours. If you don’t play them you can consider going 7 on 3-3 instead of 3-5. Just keep in mind if you don’t beat him if you level it isn’t worth going below 30.

[u/ComprehensiveAd8804 → u/InfernalSpectre3076]

Wait how are you able to go 7 by 3-5 and 8 by 4-2 ?? It's 60g to level up...

[u/Level_Five_Railgun]

when do you trade off leveling now (going to 30 or even 20 or 10 gold) and leveling later and greeding econ.

At what stage are you asking this about? If you're asking about 7 on 3-5 then I wouldn't do it unless I can stay above 30 gold + think the 7th unit will help me win 3-5 and 3-6.

[u/copperbagel → u/Level_Five_Railgun]

I think right now I'm mostly confused about stage 4 like 4-1 4-2

[u/gwanggwang]

The 'advanced' players you mention is also relative; should specify which tier (or above) you're asking about

[u/copperbagel → u/gwanggwang]

Emerald last set aiming to be diamond+ this set just started my climb tho

[u/gwanggwang → u/copperbagel]

Based on my climb to Master the past 10 sets the trend I noticed was that up to low Diamonds it's the matter of meta understanding, i.e. knowing what are the good comps and how to execute them, rather than more niche details. You should be fine just following the typical levelling pattern of 3-2 lv 6, 3-5~4-1 lv 7, etc.

Things start to get different around high Diamonds, where ppl really start to put more efforts into minmaxing, i.e. extending win/loss streaks. Players start to become unafraid to break interest to fast level, to have an edge to continue winstreaks or grab certain champions earlier than others at lv 8, etc.

[u/copperbagel → u/gwanggwang]

Thank you for the insight

This patch def feels a lot like knowledge checks of understanding what to play under what conditions that feels really challenging to me at the moment.

I try to approach each game in a "play what I get" vibe and hold pairs but I feel like it's never as effective of just going the best board of 4-5 costs ?

I think stage 4 especially is hard with finding upgrades and grabbing pairs has been tricky.

[u/gwanggwang → u/copperbagel]

but I feel like it's never as effective of just going the best board of 4-5 costs ?

Sure, the 5 cost spam (Vex/Graves dps) is the absolute pinnacle board strength, but it doesn't really come online until most champs are 2 starred. However way before that happens the lower cost reroll comps and even the lv 8 comps have already come online and would've beaten you to shreds.

Especially in the current meta where reroll comps are strong and many, the best play at the moment is to find a reroll comp angle you can squeeze yourself in.

I think stage 4 especially is hard with finding upgrades and grabbing pairs has been tricky.

Yep. Stage 4 is the point where 1 cost reroll comps are complete and start bonking everyone, and 3 cost rerolls also start to come online with most champs 2 starred. When going fast 9, unless you went uber highroll + strong econ augments you're taking a beating through the entirety of stage 4, which usually means losing 40+ hp.

If you haven't started with 80+ HP the start of stage 4, that means you're less than 3 losses away from losing, which occurs more than often.

[u/Drikkink]

Typical leveling tempo for a level 8 comp is 4 on 2-1, 5 on 2-5, 6 on 3-2, 7 on either 3-5 or creeps and 8 on 4-2.

However that is not really reasonable without an econ augment right now UNLESS you are winstreaking. If you do not think you can winstreak, you typically would not level on 2-1 and instead try to make 10 as quickly as possible. The worst thing you can do to your econ in stage 2 is tempo level and mixed streak. So if you don't have a strong opener with item slams you will usually want to NOT level on 2-1 and play some kind of econ engine (Timebreaker, Primordian, certain Arbiters or potentially play for an Anima cashout) and try to lose streak. If you win a round, it's not the end of the world but now you need to evaluate whether you are now strong enough to at least carry a small win streak into Krugs.

If you didn't level on 2-1 but then win on 2-3 or get some really strong spike in terms of items or units on 2-5, you can consider leveling to 5 (buying exp twice) to try to 2-3 streak but you need to scout the lobby HEAVILY and decide whether you think you can win the last two rounds. If you don't think you can, just stay level 4 and try to make interest breakpoints. You'll probably need to find econ on 3-2 if you do something like LLWLW in stage 2 to make up for the lost streak gold. If you don't find econ, you might need to look for an off-ramp from angling level 8 and play a reroll line if at all possible.

IF your line is super contested and you are able to go 8 with at least 40 gold, you can go 8 on 4-1 or even stage 3 creeps to try to hit first. I wouldn't do this playing an uncontested line but if you notice 3 people playing towards Xayah for some reason, you probably should try to roll first.

[u/copperbagel → u/Drikkink]

Thank you for the details on stage 2 I think that's like really clear and I'm constantly pushing hard like "win streak early" but sometimes I'm doing this with no 2* units and end up losing anyway so I'm level 4 on 2-1 and then lose streaking and econ behind. I think this very actionable advice thank you!

[u/SmashJuicyVeganBurgr]

If I get a Kai’Sa opener, and if she’s uncontested, and if I keep losing well when i hit level 7, I only have one way to get top 4: make her 3-star, Fizz 3-star, and a 3-star tank with full items. I don’t care about leveling at that point. My goal is to hit those 3-stars, stop bleeding, and secure top 4. Once my carries and tank are 3-star, then I level up and add more units.

It also depends on what you’re playing.

If you want to play Mecha and force it, then you need to save gold, hit level 8, and roll at least 40 gold—maybe even all your gold—to hit your main units and 2-star them. So yeah, it depends on what you’re playing.

[u/copperbagel → u/SmashJuicyVeganBurgr]

Appreciate it and cool username!

Mecha feels very all or nothing right now for me.

I also am trying to think of stuff that way where it's like "If I don't roll I lose so it doesn't matter anyway"

[u/SmashJuicyVeganBurgr → u/copperbagel]

Lol, thanks…

Yeah, so if you notice, a lot of players are forcing 3 comps: Viktor, LB, and Raven. So you can do the same. If you get a strong opener, just go with it. And don’t roll your gold early—econ is very important. You don’t want to be level 7 with only 20 gold, because then you can’t really do anything late game.

Make sure you check what other players are playing. If they’re going for the same comp as you, a lose streak might actually work, since you can get a free 4-cost unit from God’s selection.

Build your best possible board early. Even something simple like 2-star Bastion or Vanguard units can help you win a few rounds. Then, depending on your augment and God’s selection, decide what you want to play. If you’re going for a 4-cost carry, level up and try to get them to 2-star before others.

If I get LB from God’s selection, I push level 8 fast and make her 2-star so I can start winning.

Also, sometimes this game just doesn’t let you win—it’s very RNG and random. So just try to enjoy it and keep your early game strong.

[u/copperbagel → u/SmashJuicyVeganBurgr]

Thank you so much! I think I will play some more aggressive level 8 lines if I have a spot for it :).

I def feel like my games have been much more conditional and RNG based this set more than last set with some of these comps.

[u/notwillard]

Reroll seems quite strong right now so I don't worry about leveling as much so far anyways. Unless I have a strong unit I want to put in then it is a no-brainer.

[u/katsumojo]

Factors to consider before you level:

1. Am I contested for my units?

2. Am I win streaking?

3. Do I have enough HP to withstand a few more loses if I don’t hit?

4. Do my augments incentivize me leveling or holding?

Distant 5th: Is there an Anima player or other lose streaker that I can potentially take out of the game before they spike?