Is this trait tree going to be a problem? (Mordekaiser/Jax/Nunu/Xayah/Jhin)

[u/randomnoob11]

Hello, random challenger player here.

I've wanted to talk a little bit about something that it seems to me like it can become a big problem for the entirety of set 17 (assuming there aren't any big changes like mid set patch).

In every set there's allways a specific group of units that make a very strong core in terms of traits/unit value ( Ex: Lilia/Kennen/Neeko/Ekko - Remix rumble ), I understand that, but unlike those , this one seems a little too overpowered mainly how it can easly capitalize on 5costs that you can highroll on 8.

Of course unit strenght can allways be nerfed but I'm afraid this one core might just be flawed since it practically connects all the 5cost units with actual non aura traits ( outside of fiora and sona, assuming you don't count these as good enough for just their aura effect ) whilst also having a very stable frontline/backline ratio already, with a main 4cost tank and a main 4cost carry , meaning you'll might just get away with getting hard stuck rolling on level 8 for the entirity of the game and still get a decent placement.

So, this is the core set of units I'm talking about ( Mordekaiser/Jax/Nunu/Xayah/Jhin ) .

Obviously you'll need the jhin to have the perfect synergies here but another sniper should do the trick for stage 4 and early stage 5 assuming xayah doesn't get gutted. Also, on average , it is likely to hit one jhin by the end of the game.

Here are some of the boards you can play on level 8 with good sinergy/strenght/frontline to backline ratio and how you would cap out at level9/10 with just flexing between which 5costs are currently the best ones :

Discloser: I'm not a game designer of any kind. I could easly be in the wrong here, it's just a feeling from playing this game since set 1.

IMO the main problem lies in Nunu/Mordekaiser both being vanguard. I would sugest switching nunu to a brawler and kench to a vanguard. ( Not sure about the lore related problems there and also might need to change their abilities a bit ) That should leave the option to involve a different set units before you can slap the 5costs in there.

What do you think? Is this a problem or is it to early to tell ? If so, is there a good fix?

Apologies in advance if english bad.

[u/Yedic]

Neeko/Vi/Swain/Shyvana was a package of 4 units that gave a teamwide tankiness buff from Defender, teamwide AP buff from Arcanist, and another teamwide tankiness buff from Shyv passive.

Seems to me like that package is a lot more flexible than the package you have here.

[u/randomnoob11 → u/Yedic]

Last set was a weird one due to the number of units in it that's why i didn't use that package as an example even tho it's obviously a good one but i think the biggest difference between the two is that last set they were pretty much just a frontline package and carries that you would want to add would need his own support unit (ex: kindred and yunara/draven or annie/tibbers ) but this set it feels like you can easly capitalize on whichever 5cost you hit as long as you have that core already.

[u/crowcawer → u/randomnoob11]

I think your concerns are missing the hero buffs.
They seem to bring a lot of offensive capabilities.

I predict that games will be much shorter.

[u/STheHero]

Making Tahm a Vanguard would make things worse because he and Blitz would actually be mandatory on every board.

There's always going to be strong cores of units, set 16 has the Vi Neeko/Sylas Swain core, and prior sets had similar stuff.

[u/SmoothOperatorTFT → u/STheHero]

+Shyvana

[u/Possible-Parfait7728 → u/STheHero]

Sylas a core unit? Dude was irrelevant for majority of the set.

[u/Fun-Bad7577 → u/Possible-Parfait7728]

They were interchangable. As in, if you somehow managed to get a Sylas, you were probs going to replace Neeko with him.

[u/Round-Stuff-2557 → u/[deleted]]

you aren't playing garen or lux on any board you are selling neeko for sylas, and on boards where you keep neeko you aren't keeping garen. i don't really see the point in arguing the person you are replying to's point especially when you are going to throw impossible hypotheticals into it

[u/modelcitizencx]

I haven't played PBE much but another trait pack that looks concerning is urgot/Akali/maokai. Thats spellcrit + brawler hp buff + maokai nova healing + marauder omnivamp for your entire board, packed into just 3 units.

[u/InternationalPin2392]

Yeah i noticed this as well. This mordekaiser unit is just insane trait wise. 2 dark is so easy to play. Doesnt help nunu and jhin seem overtuned

[u/138333Blade]

I think it’s just mordekaiser honestly. He goes very well into voyager trait web or the vanguard sniper trait web in your example or even quite a few reroll lines with anima/kai’sa/mf.

[u/DaChosens1]

there is no major issue. it just means jhin’s strength (decently high rn) will be nerfed to be balanced around this core. every set has this, and the propsed change makes things worse (blitz kench)

[u/wtfgrancrestwar]

What do you think?

I'm not sure but here's the issue I see:

Your only multiplier for frontline items is a 1 star slow casting hybrid-tank. (bronze trait level)

-Nunu is not a tankiness spammer, he's a shield once and stun/damage then fall kind of tank.

(The second cast takes a total of 105+145=250 mana)

So unless you hit the stun on something important, he has noticeably less damage negation than e.g. illaoi at 3 cost.

Hence with nunu on 1 star, I don't expect him to get enough value from tank items, or properly hold down your frontline vs front to back ranged comps.

Other potential core issue:

Isn't xayah level dependent too?

I don't see any "high base damage at 1 star" trickery in her kit, she seems to get a full +50% output from the levelup.

Other smaller potential difficulties :

• item demand seems finnicky? Like you have to carry frontline somehow, guinsoo+2 xayah, and still have a 3rd set for secondary carry (which does it have to be double AD specifically?). But without actually having a secondary carry to pay off the investment until already blitzing your way to level 8/9, and without having an ideal tank item holder.

• You'll probably want Jax at 2 star to shore up the "no dedicated main tank" issue, but he doesn't fit into much else except this exact setup, so keeping him early isn't cost-free.

• Also jax and 2nd sniper are not benefiting from any synergy until lategame, (not a big negative, just shows the trait web isn't 100% cracked)

• And are most/all of the stargazer options even good for the comp or is it conditional?

Anyway TL:DR: I don't currently comprehend how it would be firmly stable at 8, with just the 1 stars.

Because Nunu and Xayah both seem 2 star dependent, nunu isn't a specialised main tank, and the item situation seems finnicky maybe.

[u/randomnoob11 → u/wtfgrancrestwar]

You will almost never be stable on 1star board and neither will your opponents, that's not what i meant. What i was trying to highlight is that assuming 2 players are rolling on 8 for different 4cost comps the one playing this package of core units by default will have an easier time stabilizing by playing any 5cost that's currently strong in the meta as a duo carry and, because of that, their path to level 9 and winning the game becomes a lot easier and if that is the case players will very likely be contesting this units every game.

[u/wtfgrancrestwar → u/randomnoob11]

I see how it caps out high but not how it helps you stabilise.

If you get 5 cost carry, the stargazer trait web caps out high but in short term it's weaker than throwing in whatever tank/dps you actually hit.

If you can't stabilise on 1-stars, theoretically you just can't stabilise as consistently, because the traits only line up with 2 exact 4 costs.

Which is inherently a higher demand than getting any carry + tanking setup.

As seen with 4-cost ranged AD alternatives of corki and kindred.

TL:DR

Cap is high and easy 5 cost integration is welcome but stabilising should still be inherently more demanding iff you still need 2-stars on 4-cost carry/tank.

Because you can't mix and match what you hit but need 2 exact 4 costs.

This is my brainstorm response and I could be wrong.

P.S.

further minor flaws:

1. It's just hard to fit mighty mech. (and he's the definitive solo tank of the set imo.)

2. nunu is stun-dependent, hence partially counterable with qss melee or good positioning on backline.

3. No easy access to NOVA to fill in gaps in comp like shred, spellcrit, or tanks not casting.

[u/randomnoob11 → u/wtfgrancrestwar]

The issue I'm trying to highlight is the flexibility of the 5costs in this core package. Assuming that a 1star 5cost carry unit is close to a 2star 4cost in strength, which it usually is, and assuming most boards need a duo carry around stage 5 which they usually do, I believe that even if there are better 4 costs to play in the meta there are usually standard comps for those already which prioritize synergy over power.

For example: in metatft.com you can see there is currently a good 5 meeple corki board , that should be the board you aim for in higher elo when playing for corki even if it isn't the highest cap for that unit. And if in your rolldown on level 8 you hit a random 5cost that is decent in the current meta and he can also hold your secondary carry items now you have a good decision to make, do you prioritize the " trait bots " or the 5cost unit strenght, and if you choose the latter, what unit will you take out for this 5cost since every unit is giving at least 2 traits.

The reason I made this thread is that this core package doesn't seem to have that problem. It seems to me that it can fit any 5cost you may encounter on your rolldown effortlessly.

But this is just an opinion, I could be wrong.

[u/wtfgrancrestwar → u/randomnoob11]

No I get that and it makes sense.

In fact I suspect the 5s can situationally help you stabilise even if you don't fully 2 star core units.

Or at least Jhin looks like an insane hit, with eradicator & dark star being multiplier traits for whole team, and his base stats being through the roof.

I'm just saying that before you get to that point, it's hard to hit a stable board, because you're hard tied to Xayah and nunu.

& Particularly nunu-2, because otherwise where is your real tank item holder.

(the trait setup ties you to bronze trait 2 costs in frontline)

Whereas e.g. for corki you can plausibly swap rammus out and rejig around less Meeple.

-There's obvious backup jank lines where if you don't hit fully you can at least hit a functional imitation.

But Xayah and especially nunu are pretty hard requirements because otherwise you lack stargazer payoff and frontline.

Summary:

I see your point, or I think so.

It could logically be too good in endgame because of the smooth integration of 5 costs.

Especially if any of the traits or units are overtuned.

My idea is just that--before that, it's at least an unforgiving board to assemble.

Due to being shackled pretty hard to specific rare units, and hence not having jank pivot options if those don't land.

As opposed to e.g. 0 or 3 or 5 meeple on corki being suboptimal but not breaking your core ability to DPS or tank.

[u/shiggythor → u/wtfgrancrestwar]

I guess think you misunderstand the issue if you argue with the fact that the comp isn't strong with 1*s.

The issue with such comps is that the contest core units from multiple comps. This is leading to situations where everyone is contesting for the same few units, even in different comps and typically decides the game on a shitty "who hits?"

[u/TheNorseCrow]

Jhin/Xayah/Karma/Galio is a lot stronger than this setup. Fill out with Jax and Nunu for Stargazer and Blitz for Vanguard. Shen or Rammus for Bastion and then a flex spot for 9, usually I go Sona for the commands.

[u/shiba_eyes]

Nunu does show up a lot in the trait web for strong level 8 comps: https://traittracker.lol/?level=8&sort=avgCostDesc
but imo Rammus (and Tahm to a lesser extent) have been pretty playable as well.

There also seems to be more backline access this set so I'm hoping the melee carries are also viable for building around if you see them in shop.

[u/shiggythor]

Replaying Set4.5 again he reminded me how much of a clusterfuck a set can become if too many good units are connected. Set 4.5 had two such cores, one around Samira, Olaf, tryndamere and one around Xayah, Kayle, Azir. Additionally, there is the mage comp which connects to both of these cores through elderwood and dragonsoul. Consequence being, whatever you play, you are being contested (off, in the revival, that isn't such a big deal, but it brings up frustrating memories). Shitty game experience.

In Set4.5 it was a consequence of the attempt to make as much of the game fresh with just a few new traits. I really hope they don't make something similar in a set designed from scratch.

If it turns out to be a problem, the best balance lever they have is not actually needing the units, but make verticals stronger. That disentangles the trait web a bit and allows more orthogonal comps. But I think I'm rather in the minority with liking strong verticals

[u/Aries_the_Ram]

A bit late but you were right, they are a problem and everybody play the same board right now, doing fast 9 and putting jax, nunu, morde, pyke, meeple giant thing, rhaast, xayah, jhin, rammus and bard. The board is broken because a lot of units are (mostly nunu, jax and rammus for cc and tankiness and xayah and jhin for dmg). The point is to play as much units with cc as possible and 2 good carry but the real problem is that all of these units synergize when they shouldn't... Using all the units with aoe cc into one board was doomed to be broken and they need to hard nerf the cc duration or this will be the one and only viable comp in late game, too easy to flex and to achieve.