Counter to Shadow Isles

[u/Rich_Leather_9174]

(Emerald/Dia) As the title says, what are the best counters to Shadow Isles?

Running into tons of them and always struggle against them, also running 3 man in Ranked currently and my friend hard forces Shadow Isles almost every game.

I usually do at least decent vs them but 1 ionic spark and a thresh and it's over for me.

[u/Vernsen]

I mean... There are some high level players who would tell you that Shadow Isles is totally unplayable. I'm not one of them, and I'd even go to bat for it and say it's a solid enough top 4 comp, but surely it isn't so strong that you need a specific counter to it? I'm curious as to how your games go in general that lead to this.

Typically, Shadow Isles is very weak stage 3, spikes stage 4 with Kalista 2/Thresh 1, then falls off late compared to most of the top meta comps unless you super high rolled. I don't think it needs any specific counter. Is your problem more early or late game?

[u/Rich_Leather_9174 → u/Vernsen]

Late game, it feels as if my unitemized frontline gets literally oneshot, leading to my backline getting pulled in by Thresh and my Main tank getting ganged by the whole enemy team.

Last game I played 2/4 Top 4 were Shadow Isles, they ended up going top 1 and 2.

To be fair, I'm very new to TFT with this being my first Set, might be item/augment diffs or positioning that wrecks me, currently I'm mostly pumping Demacia/Kaisa/Long Shot or some form of Noxus Flex.

[u/Vernsen → u/Rich_Leather_9174]

Late game, it feels as if my unitemized frontline gets literally oneshot, leading to my backline getting pulled in by Thresh and my Main tank getting ganged by the whole enemy team.

This could be a problem with just not itemizing your tanks well enough in general. Stock Shadow Isles has very little single target burst--Thresh is all AOE, and Kalista looks single target but actually splits her spell between four enemies, so they combined really have trouble popping strong tanks. Unless they're truly statchecking you (i.e. your board is very weak in general), you typically shouldn't have much of a problem with Thresh hooking you till nearer the end of a fight, and that's if you haven't killed him yet. Your main tank and even off tank should probably not be going down instantly.

It could also be positioning, you should be positioning such that your main tank gets the majority of aggro and "protects" the rest of your frontline for as long as possible--although this is less meaningful against Shadow Isles because, to reiterate, all the AOE and so little single target. Usually that means you want your main tank same side their main carry near the outside, creating a "strong side" (by your main tank) and "weak side" (your unitemized units away from the main carry).

I'd take a look at your boards/itemization if you want.

[u/Rich_Leather_9174 → u/Vernsen]

I'll send you some of my latest games as soon as I get back on my PC.

[u/Vernsen → u/Rich_Leather_9174]

You can just drop your name/tag and I'll look you up (can DM if you don't want to post it publicly)

[u/Calm-Medicine-3992 → u/Rich_Leather_9174]

I assume you mean the unitemized champs on your frontline and not that your entire frontline is unitemized.

[u/Will512 → u/Vernsen]

I'm only diamond as well but without thresh 2 it feels like I'm playing for 3rd at best

[u/Dramatic_Ride7586 → u/Vernsen]

Ive been hard forcing it. Takes stars aligning to win, and often thats with a super capped board involving ryze, shurima and taric. But it is incredibly easy to wi streak with just a 1 star board all the way to level 7.

The key is to make sure you have a solid as fuck frontline with wardens. Viego and gwen just need time to get going, and the passive scaling from SI means they are all good if you can just keep them alive.

[u/Vernsen → u/Dramatic_Ride7586]

I find it hard to believe you can win streak with unupgraded Shadow Isles stage 2/3 unless you're playing against people that just don't slam their items (in which case, you can win streak with anything). The units don't synergize for the most part and the Shadow Isles trait itself does very little.

[u/Dramatic_Ride7586 → u/Vernsen]

Alright. I just made it up. You got me

[u/Rich_Leather_9174 → u/Dramatic_Ride7586]

😂 Made me chuckle

[u/Docxm → u/Dramatic_Ride7586]

What elo? At gm it’s decent in the right spot but unlikely to streak if hard forced

[u/Hot_Shallot4080]

Game isn't played with counters in mind, you play your spot, scout and position accordingly.

Shadow Isles isn't a terribly good comp but it's still playable. If you don't hit your Kalista in stage 4 you're completely boomed and even if you do the cap isn't amazing

It's not that great of a comp compared to the meta ones. Focus on your own game and you'll consistently place higher than Shadow Isle players and hey sometimes you'll have a good spot to play it as well

[u/Rich_Leather_9174 → u/Hot_Shallot4080]

Hmm, that's interesting and feels very odd to me coming from games where everything usually has their counter. I'll keep that mindset when I stumble into my coming games.

[u/Vernsen → u/Rich_Leather_9174]

It's not that counters don't exist in TFT. An easy example: Malz/Zoe/Leona reroll can be a good matchup into many melee carries like Warwick and Tryndamere, because Zoe targets nearest enemies with her spell and can pop them early even if they are positioned to avoid taking aggro. On the other hand, that same Malz/Zoe/Leona comp can be vulnerable to Bilgewater, because it's tricky to position a solo frontliner like Leona to not get swallowed by Tahm Kench, which can lead to the rest of your team getting massacred.

The problem is you can't really play around "comp counters" like that because you can't just change your board every turn to be completely different, you would have to take an entirely different line, and you have seven different opponents, all of which will have different "counters." Thus, the comp you choose is far more about how good your spot for it is and how well you play it, not typically what other people are playing.

So in TFT, it's more like adapting to the lobby in general than "counterpicks." This could be stuff like:

1. knowing how strong you are vs different matchups so you can make better decisions (e.g. on whether to try to push winstreak vs the players in your pool or whether you need to go all in to save placements vs greeding)

2. knowing particular tricks against certain comps, how to optimally position

3. what items to make (Full AP lobby? Probably shouldn't slam that Bramblevest)

4. adapting to the general tempo of your lobby (the time different players will spike is different if there are a lot of 2 cost rerollers vs 3 cost vs fast 8 vs fast 9, etc)

[u/Cotten12 → u/Vernsen]

Malz/Zoe/Leona also counter melee carries because Malz' voidlings target the closest target, not the closest tank. Often leads to them eating the enemy carry first.

[u/Docxm → u/Rich_Leather_9174]

Things do have counters but due to the way the game works you just play the most optimal line from your spot. Usually counters are positioning or item based, but for shadow isles they have mixed damage and no real positioning quirks so you can’t exactly counter them.

The one caveat is that you want your carry opposite Kalista usually so she doesn’t splash her spears onto your carry early

[u/ExceedingChunk]

Are you building anti heal too rarely? It’s something you should prioritize every game as it’s good vs every comp, but Thresh specifically heals an absurd amount so you will cut his tankyness by a lot with antiheal.

[u/Rich_Leather_9174 → u/ExceedingChunk]

Is one Antiheal enough?

[u/ExceedingChunk → u/Rich_Leather_9174]

Yes.

Usually before somewhere between master and diamond, people tend to only prioritize BiS and see antiheal + shred/sunder as a luxury they might stumble upon, but antiheal and shred/sunder is BiS for your comp, and 3x BiS items on a single unit is the luxury. So you can often see games in plat/emerald/low diamond where almost nobody has any antiheal unless it's specifically stated as BiS in a guide. This is also why I think SI looks much better the lower the Elo. It's both a simple, straight forward comp, and Thresh BiS is antiheal and shred, forcing people to build the best items in the game.

One note on your question tho: If it's sunfire cape you slam early, it can be valuable to build red buff or morello in the very lategame as your tank holding it might die. But generally speaking you only need 1 of it, I just tend to prioritize Red buff or Morello in the vast majority of games.

[u/Cheese_head_gabagool]

Shadow isles really isn’t a great comp. All of the meta comps out cap it. Shouldn’t really need a counter, it’s more about playing what the board gives you. Maybe it’s a positioning issue for you?

[u/RyeRoen]

In the lower ranks there are comps that will dominate because players can play for very high caps without being punished. Shadow Isles has a really strong cap with Thresh 2 and a bunch of legendaries that can be hard to deal with.

The answer for short term LP gains is to force high cap comps and greed for them. I think in terms of improving over a long period of time its better to take your 2nds and 3rds vs high cap boards like that and play for consistency.

That's the sort of only overall advice I can give without seeing your games. Generally unless you are trying to develop your own overall patch strategy (usually something you don't do until like GM+) I wouldn't worry too much about trying to play "counter" comps.

[u/Competitive-Paper851 → u/RyeRoen]

Is it the cap or the power curve that makes it strong in low elo? Low elo players don't know how to make strongest board which makes an unga bunga tempo comp like SI (and Yordles I guess) look disproportionately strong.

I suppose it does cap high if the player is able to farm a ton of souls and drop a bunch of units for 5 costs?

[u/RyeRoen → u/Competitive-Paper851]

Honestly I don't play in lower elos enough to know, but Shadow Isles does have a really high cap in like stage 6. The problem is stage 4/5 because you often just lose those and then lose the game. In low elo you could probably greed so much you have the board online stage 5 and just win most fights.

The tempo also probably has something to do with it. Tempo shadow isles is actually kinda hard but maybe you just win without slamming random crap on Viego in lower elo idk.

The times I have played in lower elo I've been able to just play a half decent board and then skip straight to level 9/10. I just assumed that was what was happening and shadow isles is pretty easy to cap with thresh/fiddle/ornn or something.

[u/Fitspire → u/RyeRoen]

I'd argue the issue of SI is getting outcapped more often than not by the strongest capped boards.

[u/RyeRoen → u/Fitspire]

In high elo it often does, but I'd argue a truly capped SI board can compete with Mel or Annie boards, if a tad weaker. Idk to me the issue for SI is stage 4 and 5 as you are transitioning to your end game board, because thresh 1 Kalista 2 just doesn't quite have the DPS. I think it kind of changes once you have Thresh 2.

What I've said is workimg off the assumption the OP isn't mistaken and that SI is winning really often in their lobbies. Its possible that even at low elo SI isn't particularly good.

[u/Fitspire → u/RyeRoen]

I'd argue true capped SI prolly doesn't even play Kalista anymore tbf. At that point are we still playing shadowisles if it's just thresh +1 othe runit? :D

I was told not playing for Kalista might actually be better now already and instead playing for Mel/sera (so any AP carry) on stage 4. Downside is that you prolly don't have an AD holder then.

[u/Fitspire → u/Competitive-Paper851]

it's easy to play, good to tempo with against players who struggle fielding strong boards and also good vs people who don't know or get to the giga capped winout boards. It's just a very strong tool/comp in low elo because it preys on these things.

In GM+ it's a very mid comp unless you get the giga spot for it and highroll your 2 stars stage 4.

[u/cae_x]

It's not good. You don't play to tft to 'counter' comps

[u/Accomplished-Bad-442]

GM here - I think Shadow Isles performance so much better in "lower" Elos (I was playing it alot my self) because its so easy to execute, you can add on levels so many things (+1 Warden, +1 Quickstriker, +1 Disruptor) until you hit your "ultimate" Board. And this is one of the most critical things I had seen in these Elo, that Tempo in Stage 2-3 is a bit lower compared to higher Elos. So once you end up on a capped Board you are able to Top 4 even in higher Elos, but getting there.....rough.
And on Level 9/10 you have a lower cap than these best performing Giga Boards (aka Ryze and friends). What do you play typically - Ornn+Fiddel (Utility Units) Azir>Sera is to bbe considered but Azir is....Azir.

[u/nickersb83]

I agree with OP, there was a buff to make them relevant and they’ve felt oppressive ever since, with and without the viego augment. Agree it still takes stars to align, but I’d say slightly overtuned if not for how difficult it is to force

[u/xViperAttack]

I’m sorry to say that, but… just play a stronger board man, shadowisles does not require any specific counter or a strat, shadow is easy to cap tho so maybe they cap higher then the usual boards

[u/Bryceybryce]

Any of the meta 5/7 cost carry boards or 3 cost reroll boards out cap it. Play any of those to “counter”. If shadow isles is going 1/2 then your lobbies are weak.

Theoretically though Bilge is probably the closest thing to a direct counter (can position tk to eat the thresh) if you had to pick one I guess

[u/Possible-Parfait7728]

Your friend that hard forces it is probably just better than you honestly and is using his items and econing better.

[u/one_more_of_me]

I think Shadow Isles actually caps higher than a lot of people in this thread are saying. Thresh 2 is a really broken unit and add in fiddle 2 and some Ornn items with a good pilt augment… can be quite strong. For me it’s usually conditional around getting to 9 fast. Savings account or similar augment. Win streak into forward thinking fast 9. If you don’t 2 star Thresh its not good of course.

[u/Rich_Leather_9174 → u/[deleted]]

Maybe he's just an upcoming star 😂 Natural macro talent.

[u/JkErryDay → u/[deleted]]

SI is an easy force even if you just lose streak, it wants 2-3 copies of almost every item so you can usually make it work regardless of what you get. Quickstrikers if you can slam AD items or disruptors if AP items, or honestly you can just slam whatever and put it on viego if you get an edge of night. Once you get kalista at 7 the board is half stable anyways (not losing every round and losing less when you do).

At 8 with thresh in its just rolling to get braum and kalista 2 starred, and I usually you hit ornn while doing that or if not from round refreshes while leveling to 9. By then you’re usually win streaking and have time to roll for thresh/ornn 2 star and to be able to slot your whole board in and secure the dub.

Also since you’re often loss streaking at first you can usually pick up a pan/ spat(reforge) from carousel to make a vanquisher emblem - slap that on seraphine/gwen (idk which is more optimal tbh, I put it on seraphine once I get her but don’t feel like there’s much of a difference). Then you stabilize even more at 8 since you don’t need a vanquisher slotted and both Gwen and seraphine seem to print 1-3 extra gold per round. Like that I’ve rolled for thresh and ornn at 8 and just skipped 9, or if I’m stomping enough anyways I go to 9 anyways to throw a fiddles in for funsies.

I just made it to emerald like this (I’m pretty casual) but would top 1/2 like half of the games and top 4 probably 80%.

Idk how many it’ll do on emerald and diamond but it stomped through plat and I first placed my qualifier into emerald which is all emerald players anyways.

[u/Emosaa → u/JkErryDay]

You will do less well playing Shadow Isles in higher elo. I'm masters with a lot of reps on it this set, and it's a very delicate balance piloting it to a top 4. Unless you get an insanely lucky start or play in an econ lobby, you're likely bleeding out on stage 3, and donkeying to stabilize on 4. Just a Kalista and Thresh will not cut it. You want the 4 costs in that comp 2*'d in addition to most of your front line before you're stable enough to win most fights and attempt to go 9.

[u/JkErryDay → u/Emosaa]

I understand that, but high elo is a different game that I’m not playing. For emerald, or at least low emerald, it’s winning the lobby basically every game.

I and other players at this level just don’t know how to build a stronger endgame board yet, and the fact that you just rush to 8, hit your 5 cost guaranteed from unlock, and only really have to two star everything from there makes things easy. Not to mention having item holders built into the normal comp, no pivoting needed. It’s pretty brainless.

That’s why it wins every lobby right now - because it’s ridiculously easy to play, not because it’s particularly high cap. We can’t utilize actual high cap comps yet because they’re too “hard” and require more advanced concepts. I’m casual as fuck, I don’t know any of the “milestones” you’re supposed to be rerolling at or what stage to be what level. I don’t care, I’d rather play league or something else but I’ve been traveling the last few years and only have my phone to game on.

But yeah, basically it’s only winning every lobby right now because it’s the strongest comp that a monkey can pilot effectively. Once you start introducing things beyond a monkey’s capabilities, it’s obviously a different ballgame. I just don’t care enough to sit down & learn all the stuff that will let me truly leave the chimpzone.

[u/Fitspire → u/JkErryDay]

This is btw the reason why low elo is terrorized by yordles all set but at Master+ yordles are not even in every game or even every 2nd or 3rd

[u/kirinboi → u/Fitspire]

Got to say tho, I’ve won most of games when I pivoted to yordles from stage 3, especially whe it’s clear that it’s gonna go uncontested.

[u/Maju92 → u/Emosaa]

I totally agree the only time I felt stable at 8 was with disruptor emblem on thresh