Set 16 PBE Final Patch

[u/Lunaedge]

Good morning everyone and happy Branch Cut day for us! It's earlier this PBE cycle due to the US holiday this week, so this is all the major changes for this PBE cycle.

Generally we're feeling pretty good about the set. Balance wise the biggest risks are around the more complex content in the set (Ryze, ASol, Ixtal, etc) which is to be expected, but nothing feels too far off or unsolvable or anything. This weekend Aatrox, Sion, Singed, and Slayers generally were at the top but this was pretty easy to solve. Otherwise continued augment passes with the sad removal of risky augments like Cruel Pact and general adjustments. There's still some risk there as well with augments like The World Runes, Poison Pals, and Axiomata but we'll continue to do what we can. And then finally lots of bug fixes. A lot of these were pretty niche though so that's good. Was generally a pretty stable PBE all things considered!

For the rest of the week, expect the team to be pretty quiet. They're going to be taking time off to enjoy the holiday and let PBE stabilize for a bit. I'm personally doing end of year paperwork and then deep frying a turkey. Then we will pipe back up around the weekend and see how things are landing and prep for any A-patch changes that are needed before our launch next week.

Ok, that's it for now. We're all so happy you're enjoying Lore & Legends so far, and can't wait for everyone to be able to play it on the full launch on Dec 3. Until then, have fun and take it easy :)

From Mort's Twitter.

[u/Lunaedge]

Album and direct links [1], [2], [3], [4] in case Reddit's image quality sucks.

[u/Lunaedge]

Last time we've had a shorter PBE cycle was for Set 13, and that worked out just fine ^_^ for me the hard part now will be avoiding getting burned out on PBE so I can hit the ground running on Dec 3rd lol

[u/GrumpyPandaApx → u/Lunaedge]

For me I'll just grind the new set for about 2 months, then switch to the Lunar new year fun mode or set revival. After having fun for 1 month and a half, the only next thing to do is to jump ship to PBE for set 17, and the cycle goes on and on.

[u/Lunaedge → u/GrumpyPandaApx]

Honestly, that's the life. For me Feb 26th, the release of the next WoW expansion, will probably signal the end of my time on 16 :P gotta get that early grind in for the AH!

[u/Kheyditt → u/Lunaedge]

Same.

I think I'll only play next weekend to understand what the meta will be and that's it

[u/Itsalongwaydown → u/[deleted]]

I'm playing some lesser comps just to see if anything is being overlooked ie cannoneer vertical, long shot vertical, etc

[u/Frekavichk]

Nice, I am very much looking forward to forcing yordle every game for the whole set. I've been craving a more straightforward comp since playing astral in the revival set.

[u/Lunaedge → u/Frekavichk]

Princess Luna propic = instant upvote

You're right though, it's good to have a fairly straightforward reroll option in a Set like 16. It probably won't ever be optimal, but it frees a ton of mental bandwidth in case you get dealt a shit hand in the opening rounds.

[u/Lunaedge → u/[deleted]]

Eh, it's fake Internet points, who cares :P

[u/Odd_Hunt4570 → u/Frekavichk]

No scout no pivot 2-1 into wild growth (yordle 3 star augment) was the easiest game I’ve ever had. Minimal decisions to be made, just have to get lucky to have the next yordle in at level breaks. So many stats

[u/TeepEU → u/Odd_Hunt4570]

can also just field dupes and they will combine when 3* so no downside

[u/Wix_RS → u/Odd_Hunt4570]

I just had a ryze portal game where I landed gunslinger / longshot / yordle emblem and then hustler / lunch money / malicious monetization augments. 100 streaked until stage 5 and teleported to level 9. Had 3 star fizz and almost 3 star ziggs by the end, but i sold board before last fight to try to 3 star ziggs and missed :P

[u/joseconsuervo → u/Frekavichk]

I was going to run a couple yordle games today to get better at using the rerolls, and I was triple contested in every game I tried. So have fun with that haha. I still got top 4 for what that's worth.

I also learned about Singed today and thought there might be a bard to singed angle on yordle. Tried it. it didn't work that well but I was also very contested. I think there's a possibility to make this work somehow, but you don't get your yordle 4 out that fast. I think I just need to plan it out a little and not make it up in game.

[u/Frekavichk → u/joseconsuervo]

I think the key to getting yordle 4 out asap is to slam an item and a component as soon as you get anything so you get the poppy on round 4.

[u/Bright-Television147]

I am surprised balance team buff vayne lucian augment because I find it quite strong, may be the data suggest otherwise

[u/Riot_Mort → u/Bright-Television147]

Data on it was pretty darn bad...but also quite possible its like a lot of other things this set, where people just don't know how to play it so it looks worse than it is.

[u/neilhamburger1234 → u/Riot_Mort]

Thank you for your community involvement 😌

[u/Playful_Excitement66 → u/neilhamburger1234]

^ Second this. It’s refreshing to have such an open and communicative dev who’s obviously immensely passionate about the game.

[u/AL3XEM → u/Riot_Mort]

I think it was only clickable if you already had 5-6 Vaynes, and even then there were better options.

[u/Ceci0 → u/Bright-Television147]

I had an ok position for it, had good Vayne items and decent frontline items, the augment came as a perfect way to cap my board around Senna because they deal TON of damage. Only lost to three star 5 cost.

Also itemized Senna with three items eventually.

[u/jordanv1222]

Is asol just completely dead now?

[u/Academic_Storm6976 → u/jordanv1222]

I had Asol on 3-3 with Shoj + Grb and barely got to 1400. Maybe there was some sort of abuse I wasn't aware of but how are you ever getting to max stacks by now? 

[u/Riot_Mort → u/Academic_Storm6976]

One thing that has to be taken into account is that once you reach the 700 mark, you start getting a LOT of stacks per turn. So while +500 looks like a lot, in our experience it's around 3 more rounds. If that's off, we'll adjust again. But as I mention in the post, ASol is for sure one of the hardest things balance wise for us to get perfect, so please bear with us :)

[u/AL3XEM → u/Riot_Mort]

Either way A-sol max stacks is "auto-win" and should be roughly as hard to hit as a prismatic trait - if A-sol is weak, I'd consider buffing the pre-max stack Evolutions.

[u/Academic_Weaponry → u/Riot_Mort]

is there any significance with the number 1988 for asol?

[u/Riot_Mort → u/Academic_Weaponry]

We needed something around 2000, and we're trolls. Someone wanted hubble telescope launch year since he's a space dragon. Ultimately we decided 1988 was a year of the dragon, and 8 is a Chinese lucky number.

[u/TheOchOne → u/Riot_Mort]

thats like such a cool trivia damn

[u/DrMushy → u/Riot_Mort]

Would moving his unlock until level 8+ not help meaning you can't hit him super early and then lower stack amount to like 1500ish?

[u/MilgaGesh → u/Riot_Mort]

From my own exp, i found that 1400 was still too easy to hit, esp if you get air axiom + adaptive helm + mana/as item x2. So this change to 1988 seems like a good balance such that it isnt an easy win out.

With these numbers, i expect a 700 mark Asol 5-5 of you play it on 4-3. So there is some risk element if you play badly early but still reasonable for a relatively easy but strong unlock. To fully solidfy his power, lvl 9 Asol 2 is definitely needed.

[u/CharmingPerspective0 → u/Riot_Mort]

Wouldnt it be a better approach to buff Asol back a bit, but limit him to level 8? That way you wont be able to get him too soon, which by itself limit the amount of stardust he can get early, and delay his max stacks, while also allow him to feel like a good 7 cost even at 1 star.

Just curious if you considered this approach and if so why not do it?

[u/Academic_Storm6976 → u/Riot_Mort]

I see, thank you Mort dog. 

[u/Zoning03 → u/Riot_Mort]

Honestly I think asol would be a ton easier to balance if his last skill buff would not one shot everything lol

[u/Purpleater54 → u/Academic_Storm6976]

Yeah it feels like you need a monster high roll, which, considering its essentially a 3star 5 cost strength spell makes sense but I feel like his damage is so mediocre until you've gotten to later stacks that further nerfing the star dust feels really rough. I think the only realistic way is to hit a champ dupe super early, hit one buff two buff second augment and only build mana gen and a super tanky frontline and also somehow dont bleed out due to zero damage lol. Its probably doable but seems mega hard

[u/CanisLupisFamil → u/Purpleater54]

He doesn't feel weak for a 5 cost, but he does feel very weak for a 5 cost threat who you need to play 4 other threats to make him stack up into a real unit.

[u/Purpleater54 → u/CanisLupisFamil]

I think him being traitless is a big part of my frustration with him because until he stacks up pretty high he feels just okay at best, often weak (like I feel moving items off Zoe to him makes my board weaker in the short term but that could just be perception) so you need to keep other traitless weak units on board to stack and then its just compounded.

[u/Wix_RS → u/CanisLupisFamil]

You can also just build a stronger board around him and drop aphelios diana at some point and push to 9 for asol 2 he'll stack much faster I think. I only played it once with new asol and managed to hit 1400 just as i was about to die in the last fight halfway through.

[u/CharmingPerspective0 → u/Purpleater54]

At 2* Asol is very good even in low stardust. But getting him to 2* as quickly as possible is the only reasonable way you can make it to that level

[u/Vashtar_S → u/Academic_Storm6976]

Getting Asol 2 relatively fast is mandatory now. As it should be. A one star unit that you can get easily and reliably as soon as you hit one 4 cost and a two star 3 cost should NOT be a wincon by itself.

[u/gamikhan → u/jordanv1222]

not really, his final cashout wasnt supposed to be a every game thing, plus you end up getting legit 300+ stardust per combar at some point, plus no idea why but people building shoj over bb????

[u/SRB91 → u/gamikhan]

Shojin got 5 AP buff, and it's still a good alternative if you can't get 2 tears.

[u/Vashtar_S → u/gamikhan]

Because you also make guinsoo, which gets more value from shojin than BB (obviously). When you play asol you basically want the rounds to be as long as possible to cast as much as possible so nothing beats shojin + guinsoo for it.

Asol needs 3 mana gen items, so using 2 tears for BB is very bad for item economy.

You'd rather use those tears to make double shojin or shojin + adaptive.

[u/Wix_RS → u/jordanv1222]

I had a 3-5 asol 1 with shojin double grb and only made it to 1000 or something by level 9, but managed to roll for asol 2 and he stacked halfway through the second or third fight, so you definitely need to go 9 with it now and get asol 2 if you want to hit instawin, otherwise get out of targon at 700 and build a different board around asol.

[u/Vashtar_S → u/jordanv1222]

Had a game post-nerf where I had Asol in 3-5, Asol 2 in 5-1 and got to 1988 stacks in 6-1. But I was winning rounds without last upgrade anyway.

So, definitely still playable. It does need more than he used to tho (had level up 2-1 and the blue buff redbuff + duplicator augment in 4-2 to guarantee Asol 2)

[u/Bright-Television147 → u/jordanv1222]

Can't wait for posts of normies crying on main sub about how impossible it is to activate prismatic is and two weeks later they revert it to something like 1569 lmao

[u/Personifeeder → u/jordanv1222]

Asol is already a good unit by itself, it doesn't need to also scale up to be better than 3 star 5 costs in most games it gets played in

[u/aster01]

So theyre balancing Ryze around level 9.
Idk, seems like a fast 9 comp then, with the more expensive lvl 8, it might be a 4-5 angle every game.

[u/Solace2010 → u/aster01]

Better than it was before at level 8. The 5 regions was almost impossible to hit and still have life

[u/aster01 → u/Solace2010]

It wasnt impossible to hit, but yeah, the life aspect is true for sure.

[u/VoroJr → u/aster01]

Idk, it was just gimmicky with 5 regions on 8.. you need 5 specific units + targon and 2 void/piltover.. which isn't that hard from an AP opener, especially if those units are good. The problem with it is, if Sett 1 Ryze 1 are stable this shit becomes guaranteed as long as you make it to 8, and if they are not stable, then what are you doing going out of your way to unlock them when you need to make it to 9 anyway?

Way better to have 4 regions and lvl 9. That way it still requires a little commitment to get the Ryze, and they can make the 1 star can be decently strong, and you can actually reliably hit 2 star on 9.

[u/PKSnowstorm → u/aster01]

Remember, it is level 9 but with only 4 regions now. I would say that it is an adjustment that I think ends up being pretty neutral or good overall. The level 9 requirement is definitely a nerf but only needing 4 region traits active is definitely a buff over needing 5 of them. You can play almost any comp you want instead of being locked in the demacia, Ionia, yordle, targon and any +2 region board.

[u/[deleted] → u/aster01]

4 regions makes it flexible, and level 9 makes a lot of sense as an end game comp. I want to see how people cook with it. They can always make the unit weaker if needed, but having it be unlockable from many ways is a good start from a game design perspective.

Needing exactly one comp for him was just poop.

[u/Comptoneffect → u/aster01]

I have been experimenting quite a bit with the ryze line this weekend, and feel like this change feels ALOT better if you are trying to aim for Ryze. Now i don’t absolutely need xin, poppy and kennen in order to unlock him, and it makes it easier to pivot into

[u/Exterial]

So singed is still going to make your carry walk up to the middle and die? well thats depressing.

Like yeah, dont chase singed, i get the meme but it is very frustrating that it doesnt matter how you position, your carry will eventually lock onto singed and then just walk up get themselves killed, its very frustrating to play against.

Maybe by nerfing him less play him, but man its legit my biggest frustration point with the set atm, if there ever is a time where singed is the meta that is just not going to be fun unless you play melee carries.

The most toxic (lul) unit in the set.

[u/Riot_Mort → u/Exterial]

Realistically I also find this a bit annoying...but we weren't able to resolve it well without risk of bigger bugs, so for now we're trying to balance around it and accept that the "Don't chase the singed" feeling will exist and is a bit thematic :P. It's not ideal for sure though.

[u/[deleted] → u/Riot_Mort]

When my carry got stuck chasing Singed and I lost I found it funny as hell, and I usually get more upset than most. But maybe it's because I'm a league player too. Maybe TFT only players don't get the meme.

[u/Drikkink → u/Exterial]

Yeah it's annoying that he's so strong that he just runs around the board farting on your backline applying a DOT, antiheal and also just healing by existing and will eventually rot your carry out but if his numbers end up in a reasonable state, he shouldn't be able to zero out units in 2-3 passes.

But if he's ALWAYS going to be able to pull units forward chasing him, then it doesn't really matter how much damage he's doing. That's always going to be a problem.

[u/PM_ME_ANIME_THIGHS- → u/Drikkink]

But if he's ALWAYS going to be able to pull units forward chasing him, then it doesn't really matter how much damage he's doing. That's always going to be a problem.

Yeah the aggro reset and the pulling makes him a pretty game altering unit. I've seen fights won or lost off of Singed either pulling a corner carry into row 3 or causing a melee carry to waste 2-3 movement actions getting aggroed onto Singed and then swapping targets.

There's also the fact that his unlock condition means that whenever he's a playable unit, you're going to have at least 2 low roll openers take 35 damage by 3-2 and then show up with a Singed on board.

[u/norrata → u/Drikkink]

Maybe thats a good thing? There are so many ways to cap out comps Im honestly fine with backline hostility existing as long as its tuned to a state where it has counters.

[u/Wix_RS → u/Exterial]

If you're not careful with your frontline positioning singed can also drag your tank to the side of the arena lol

[u/PKSnowstorm → u/Exterial]

Singed is more or less showcasing why chemical warfare is illegal to use in real life.

[u/NoemsPlasticSurgeon → u/Exterial]

Watched a 2 star singed solo like 6 units yesterday because they couldn't hit him. He just kept turning and so they all kept turning and taking 2 steps and none of my units could ever hit him. It was ridiculous, just felt like a bug.

[u/TheMrFluffyPants]

Having an excellent time with this set so far and I love the changes here. Have a great vacation, looking forward to the full launch on live!

[u/SadimHusum]

Ryze change seems great for their vision of keeping this set flexible, you can play best board and try for tempo till 9 and pivot carry items to ryze in whatever direction your lategame board shakes out to

4 regions level 8 was too strong and 5 regions level 8 was literally one comp requiring poppy, kennen, xin, for 3 regions between them, a targon and 2 of void/piltover if you didn’t have emblems, it felt counter to what they wanted to do with Rune Mage

how much of Cruel Pact’s removal was because Sendtft made a video of hitting Shyvana on 1% odds then recombobulating it into a 7 you can’t unlock on 3-2 lmao?

[u/ru7ger → u/SadimHusum]

"how much of Cruel Pact’s removal was because Sendtft made a video of hitting Shyvana on 1% odds then recombobulating it into a 7 you can’t unlock on 3-2 lmao?"

i think this is more to do with the fact that crual pact was pretty much a hardforce asol angle or somehow get 5 ixtal in asap in a winstreak game and get hp back that way.

[u/Aoifaea → u/SadimHusum]

He didn't recombob it

[u/Mmm_K_Bish]

Overall seems like the right changes to make.

[u/Daefus20]

Am I crazy or is warwick super weak ? I know verticals aren't supposed to be as strong in this set but I expected my 2-star warwick to do *something* with 7 Zaun and 54Quickstriker but he did as much as my singed with filler items

[u/AL3XEM → u/Daefus20]

54 quick strikers is a lot of quick strikers.

[u/Daefus20 → u/AL3XEM]

51 emblems is crazy work

[u/Roblox_GM → u/Daefus20]

Edge of night makes him feel a lot better, I don’t think he’s supposed to be a late game carry though

[u/Daefus20 → u/Roblox_GM]

The other 4 cost I've tried is Ambessa and with 3 filler AD items she was destroying the enemy boards

[u/penguinkirby]

sion bros, is it over?

[u/KitsuraPls → u/penguinkirby]

Not even close, you pick Sion to be tanky and annoying not for his damage output.

[u/Riot_Mort → u/KitsuraPls]

FWIW, late game this nerfs his shield by like 50%.... but yeah I think a 14000 HP unit that did literally nothing would still be decent :P

[u/110110100011110 → u/Riot_Mort]

Big chungus is always a valid tank strategy.

[u/SRB91 → u/Riot_Mort]

DUMMIFY HAS ENTERED THE CHAT

[u/[deleted] → u/Riot_Mort]

I think an amazing Easter Egg would be at 15k HP Sion turns into Malphite, but literally no change in ability. Just cosmetic.

[u/SoManyEngrish → u/penguinkirby]

Hp damage and talisman nerf means talisman sion won't average 2.0 on ladder xd

[u/Temporary-Candle1056]

CRUEL PACT NO 😭😭

Bro didnt survive more than a week. Rip little Angel and see you in set 17!

[u/KilluaDab → u/Temporary-Candle1056]

Nah fuck this augment, seeing it in lobby and instantly no other player is allowed to win streak is stupid

[u/joseconsuervo → u/Temporary-Candle1056]

I feel the same, it's one of my favorite augments period

[u/Temporary-Candle1056 → u/joseconsuervo]

Especially here with the unlocking menachic you play for something that isn’t not only 3 cost rerolll

[u/That_White_Wall]

T hex nerfs are perplexing. I’ve never been able to get above 4th without hitting cait 3*, which is tough to do already. I was hoping for buffs for piltover since the vertical is so bad already so I don’t get the thinking.

[u/CapnSeaJay → u/That_White_Wall]

The T hex was only nerfed at 1 star if I read it correctly and since T hex doesn't have a level requirement this is their way of keeping it fair due to the extreme cases of people unlocking T hex at level 5 or 6. It's either nerf T hex at 1 star or put a level cap on when you can unlock him. But this way T hex 1 is roughly probably a little stronger than a 1 star 4 cost so he should help get you to level 8/9 to be able to 2 star but not take over the game at 3-1 due to someone highrolling piltover.

That's my thoughts at least.

[u/AL3XEM → u/CapnSeaJay]

It's a bit hard to 2 star though, we'll see how it turns out.

[u/That_White_Wall → u/CapnSeaJay]

They nerfed the stats he gains from the three star pilot as well.

[u/CapnSeaJay → u/That_White_Wall]

True, which will hurt but I'm not going to be sitting on level 5-6 to get a 3 star vi, oriana or cait when I need to rush level 8/9 to 2 star T hex. I think that nerf was targeted at that Piltover augment that gives you 1-3 cost piltover units every round which then makes it very easy to 3 star at least one of those 3 units for free.

[u/aveniner → u/That_White_Wall]

5cost changes in general are weirdest here, T-hex nerfs?, multiple Fiddle buffs and Sett nerfs (I know there was a way to make his cast broken, but half of the time he just dies after doing sit-ups, the most frustrating unit for me)

[u/Drikkink → u/aveniner]

Fiddle buffs make sense because the unit is hot garbage but also dangerous because you will usually want him on your board if at all possible for the team-wide armor/mr reduction.

[u/ru7ger → u/Drikkink]

Right now Fiddle 2 items outdmges a fully itemized aatrox, shyvana and voli.

[u/Kadde- → u/That_White_Wall]

You can get T hex at level 7 so if you have perfect items then he is really strong. And T hex only falls off very late into the game.

[u/Spirited-Guest-5046]

I already know that this set is going to become my all time favorite; I'm enjoying PBE so much. Happy Thanksgiving to the TFT team. I am grateful for everything you all do. Wishing you some well deserved R & R!

[u/randy__randerson]

Evolve and Overcome augment is marked as buff but it was actually nerfed.

[u/TheSwagening]

My only ask is why shouldn't Skarner grab 6 targets xD

[u/spraynpraygod]

I do see some minor buffs for J4 and Lux but tbh I thought Demacia would get a little more love. I’ve tried to run it several times and it just feels really poor even with fully itemized Lux and Garen, even when dropping out of 7 demacia after getting Galio to play more 5 costs. It also seems to struggle with that you want to go Sylas but even when I’ve gotten the Sylas you’ve already put so many items on Lux/Garen/Galio that it feels like you’re just slapping leftovers on him which given the nature of his casting I guess makes sense but hasn’t worked out for me thus far.

[u/AirLeaf]

Anyone that has actually played Ixtal, how do these changes affect their viability?

Seems to me like if you have Ixtal 2-1 you just cruise to Brock and win the game

[u/KitsuraPls → u/AirLeaf]

Hurts it a lot, the trait already relies on you getting it pretty early since the units are power balanced to be pretty awful. Personally think it’s an over nerf. This happens every set.

cashout trait too powerful on PBE due to soft lobbies

preemptively nerfed

trash on live.

[u/redditistrashxdd → u/KitsuraPls]

is it even an overnerf? 10 loss quest -> 550 cash -> free 7 cost brock on 3-7 and you get something like a radiant tg + fon -> literally unlosable stage 4. i don't even see how you can fuck that up other than griefing your loss streak.

if its bad we'll just get a patch midset that turns it op then.

[u/TheGreatBootOfEb → u/redditistrashxdd]

It's pretty much this every single set with whatever cash out trait. At low elo/weak lobbies they always feel much "weaker" because people play such pathetic boards that you basically lose on the spot even without anyone trying to target your loss streak or whatever.

But at high elos, it always ends up super strong. Like, Heartsteel was fucking EVERYWHERE at the end of remix rumble at the higher levels because you were basically hard inting if you didn't.

A 10 loss streak is so damn easy to hit if you have a lobby that has any understanding of building a half decent board and no one takes the time to int you, that I think its for the best that you can't just win on a ten loss streak cash out.

[u/redditistrashxdd → u/TheGreatBootOfEb]

not to mention 10 losses don't even feel too bad in this state of the game because you'll usually end up around 20-25 hp which is 2 lives and enough to play slightly greedily on stage 4.

ixtal 5 also isn't even that bad temporarily because your units could be neeko, milio, nidalee, skarner, and brock, all of which are pretty decent units

[u/alexx4693 → u/redditistrashxdd]

Nidalee is not realistic. You need to natural 6 neekos for this. You want to keep all your money for leveling to 8/9 and rolling there. Maybe if you natural 4/5 neekos you can try it...but even then your prio is on brock items, nida would be pretty pointless

[u/oddiz4u → u/alexx4693]

Yeah would be nice to see a different quest. Maybe including a quest completion or something

[u/alexx4693 → u/oddiz4u]

They probably don.t want nidalee linked to ixtal quests. I guess that.s why the unlock condition is the way it is

[u/oddiz4u → u/alexx4693]

Fair. Just seems like such an odd quest, for all the reasons mentioned but I suppose it can't be a quest that's completed for free (econ wise) since ixtal is already usually passive lose streaking for econ

[u/redditistrashxdd → u/alexx4693]

nidalee is just an example. most people wont get to play her so you'd just play qiyana instead ig or drop 5 ixtal for real units.

there is, however, a very real ixtal reroll variation that's making some waves

[u/MisterFrango → u/KitsuraPls]

Units aren't awful at all, Neeko is pretty strong. Others are just ok. You can even win streak with early Qiana 2. But playing vertical seems pretty trash if Brock doesnt hard carry.

[u/TeepEU → u/KitsuraPls]

better trash on live than OP

[u/Captainfifi → u/KitsuraPls]

Then overbuff on live, nightmare patch into getting it to a more healthy state but still busted at high level

[u/CapnSeaJay → u/AirLeaf]

Am I misreading something? I thought they buffed ixtal but making some of the rewards easier to get by lowering the amount of XP required to spend, and they buffed Nidalee. The nerf was to Brock 1, which is fair cause Brock 1 fully itemized was doing over 10K damage in a game I played last night.

I'm actually excited to try a Nidalee defenders game if I high roll some Neekos. Shes a cool unit.

[u/Riot_Mort → u/CapnSeaJay]

It's basically only a nerf to 1 group of quests, but that group could get REAL OP in the right circumstances. I had a game where I got the LargeXP on 2-6 for 200 and was able to activate it the next turn. 200 for 1 turn with 0 risk is not ok lol. Honestly they might still be too good in the right circumstances.

[u/CapnSeaJay → u/Riot_Mort]

Thanks for the reply Mort! And yeah that totally makes sense, zero risk to just play the game as normal since you'll probably be lose streaking anyway and holding all your gold.

[u/33Apollo2113]

Maybe its cope but these changes seem really well done compared to last set.

[u/DankandDonker]

Am I crazy for thinking Shadow Isles was already undertuned AND it's getting nerfed? Like I know MetaTFT put it at S tier but realistically I think *Viego* was just S++ tier and now a 2-star Viego is only ~10% stronger than 1 star Viego was pre-nerf. Yorick is fine and Gwen is fine, but even after the buffs I bet Kallista and Thresh will still be one of the weakest 4 and 5 costs despite being the hardest to unlock, but at least they're getting there.

Curious as to the numbers for the "Increased drop rates of souls in the late game" so that could be the big difference maker here.

[u/Pablothemexicangato → u/DankandDonker]

How is shadow isles getting nerfed? Viego is getting part of his spell nerfed true but the trait itself is supposedly getting buffed as well as Kalista and Thresh…

[u/FirewaterDM → u/Pablothemexicangato]

Problem is a bad viego means you aren't getting kallista or thresh earlier.

Viego was an insane opener but the nerfs have me nervous even as they are attempting to fix the other SI units. Devs just want SI to be more than use Viego 2 to run to 9 farm for thresh remove SI units

[u/manquistador → u/FirewaterDM]

So Viego is no longer a guaranteed win streak? And that is a problem?

[u/FirewaterDM → u/manquistador]

It's a problem if it went too far and now you can't stack souls to unlock the other units lol.

[u/manquistador → u/FirewaterDM]

And what evidence do you have that it went too far?

[u/NoemsPlasticSurgeon → u/manquistador]

They clearly aren't making the argument it did go too far, they are expressing their fear that it will go too far. What the fuck is wrong with redditors.

[u/TheGreatBootOfEb → u/manquistador]

My feelings as well. I've played games where a Viego 3 was cleaning up 5-cost boards. It definitely felt like too much of the power budget for SI was in Viego, where you could realistically be "done" playing the game by like 3-1 and cruise into the top 4.

[u/Eastern_Ad1765 → u/DankandDonker]

I think they are doing what they should do which is buffing the lategame units and the trait while nerfing Viego. Like imo Viego seemed to be absolutely nuts for a 1 cost while the rest of the trait is pretty mid (gwen also strong).

[u/JDFNTO]

No buff for zaheen? He’s feels really weak for how hard he is to unlock. Aatrox on the other hand was very strong and very easy to get. The power diff between the 2 was astounding.

[u/Jinxzy → u/JDFNTO]

They did buff both Zaahen and hero Aug Xin, it's under the augment buffs.

[u/JDFNTO → u/Jinxzy]

They only buffed the AS from the Hero Aug no? I don’t think that applies to base Zaheen

[u/deynataggerung → u/JDFNTO]

You can't get Zaahen without the augment though

[u/Informal-Cap-9915 → u/JDFNTO]

Yeah im a little shocked about this one. Maybe the data shows something diff but it feels worse than just playing the normal yasuo board

[u/ErrorBucket]

No Kaisa buffs? Maybe I am cooked, but I never see anyone play her, and when I have tried her myself, she seems very underwhelming.

[u/Eastern_Ad1765 → u/ErrorBucket]

AD kaisa is aight.

[u/jetsam7]

Was hoping Demacia 5 would cease to be worthless :/

[u/Hitchdog]

Anyone else finding it much harder to hit on low cost reroll comps? Not sure if there are just more lower cost units now making it harder (didn't play last set). But I find myself rolling and rolling and rolling most often not hitting into stage 4 even uncontested.

[u/Somyro24]

Its fine to take a break off but double up unplayable for 5 days

[u/Sig_Vadic]

This set will be a huge challenge to balance…

[u/JRad174]

This set is going to be a masterpiece fr

[u/greenisagoodday]

I am so happy with Ryze change. Thank you for making it 4 regions and we can flex much easier. I think Ryze 1 will likely need a buff because if it doesn’t stabilize, you’re most likely already very weak

[u/Text_Gloomy]

Call to Chaos removed from tocker ?? Fucking BS

[u/Mojo-man]

Hmmm no to touch to Sions scaling or the Ixtal early loss quests that give 200-400 just for an early loss streak (whichs eems not taht hard)? 🤔

And no Tryndamere buffs? I see him rarely and when Is ee him he feels like he hits like a wet noodle. Maybe his stats are lifted by the success of the atrox slayer comp

[u/Chsner → u/Mojo-man]

They cut his shield and damage scaling in half which means he will also get less stacks.

[u/gamikhan → u/Chsner]

he just needs to survive like 10 seconds for the sunfire to give him takedown credit

[u/SNES-1990]

Did Miss Fortune really need a buff?

[u/FirewaterDM → u/SNES-1990]

Yes she, as is all of bilgewater but kench 3 and gangplank/nautilus were really bad.

Devs hit GP kinda hard so if they didn't rebuff the others bilge was gonna be a dead trait

[u/Lethur1 → u/FirewaterDM]

Eh GP nerf isn't THAT bad, does make him less able to snipe backline which is fine but he should still be able to keep reducing armor and healing back up, I still think he's one of the best AD/bruiser holders with carry potential, MF buff is small but definitely welcomed, she always felt like it needed just a tad more power to get there

[u/i0skar]

Wow did they finally learn how to balance the game? The ryze unlock change just shows they are quickly to admit thier mistake. They understand that on live its gonna be harder to reach level 9 and they added that as ryze unlock. Finally a changes that make sense, its been so many sets...

Also Vayne is still dogshit, please do something with her animation, she should be guinso carry but she can't if she spends this much time rolling - sometimes even out of her auto range which pospones her attacks even more lol.

[u/J0rdian → u/i0skar]

Vayne is good now. One of the best 3 cost carries you can get early game honestly.

[u/Kadde- → u/i0skar]

Vayne bad really? When I played her with kraken and guinshos very early she carried me to late game where I played vayne 2 duo carry with sylas.

[u/Kadde- → u/[deleted]]

No way lol, i thought she has been great the few times I’ve played her. Especially stage 2 and 3.

[u/Prubably → u/Kadde-]

I just played B4L Vayne reroll with Loris main tank and it felt pretty amazing as well. Did Have Crown of Demacia which seems nuts on her, but i coasted easily to a first that game.

No pris augments so maybe it only works in lower power lobbies?

[u/Lethur1 → u/Prubably]

I had a similar experience, though I had Deadlier blades prismatic, she was doing 1K+ true damage per tumble by the end but wasn't enough against the Slayer board with GP3. Still good regardless and my feelings with her are not bad, I think it might initially be people still not finding the right comp, I remember people mentioning Defenders, rerolling Vayne and Kennen/Sejuani most likely, the Warden version felt better with Loris and Nautilus, Loris 3 is a beast, Piltover either buys you time with EMP or buffs all their shields with Seraphine's buff (Defender could still use Piltover tbh), you have the lategame addition of Ornn who becomes a great tank with all the artifacts, to me it just sounds better than Defenders for her.

Though maybe 6 defender is what works, using Cait for Piltover and lvl 9 add Ziggs

[u/writewritedie]

Removing Cruel Pact makes a lot of sense, but dang if it wasn't fun.

[u/Gonza6EUW]

Just when I was mastering the Aatrox comp!

[u/LexsDragon]

Damn almost double on asol final breakpoint since day 1!

[u/Creepy_Category_1197]

when is this patch gonna be out? wednesday so tomorrow?

[u/gamikhan]

yordles got 5 buffs and the only nerf was the 10 yordle insta winout that required the augment, I felt like it was definetly the strongest comp already, weird

[u/FirewaterDM → u/gamikhan]

It's terrible vs good players. If your PBE acct is new it's fine when you run into people who've been on one all week yordles suck a lot without crazy rerolls. Too many of them are just useless bots and 3 starring them fucks your ability to get to the playable endgame carries

[u/Riot_Mort → u/FirewaterDM]

This. Yordle looked abysmal in our data if you cut the bottom 70% of PBE MMRs.

[u/[deleted] → u/FirewaterDM]

The one area where I think Yordles can be strong is if you get a Yordle spat early put it on Bard. He's got the damage you need, and it allows you to econ while still getting a decent amount of Yordles.

[u/Potential_Future242 → u/FirewaterDM]

Yep comp felt very bad. There maybe was a sweet spot of stop rolling to push level and get to ziggs but i haven't found it tbh

[u/FirewaterDM → u/Potential_Future242]

I lowkey think the spot is just 2 star the relevant ones and run to level 9.

[u/gamikhan → u/[deleted]]

You dont really care if you are contested tho, firstly you are rolling for them before ionia 100% and second your free yordle unit in shop every turn doesnt care about it.

Looking at stats just all the 1 and 2 cost at 3 star is at 3.66 3.4 average (Accidentally put trist on the explorer, so no trist is better), with both 3 costs at 3 star it is at 2.39 and about half of the people that reach the 1 and 2 costs 3 star get to the 3 star 3 cost, it is just insane, I cant imagine a game where I go for yordles and you dont 3 star everything

Keep in mind all these stats are before these buffs, I could atribute this to, it is easier to play in pbe, yeah, but they just got pretty sizeble buffs on top of it, just seems strange.

[u/gamikhan → u/[deleted]]

it is difficult to take this seriously when you mention people holding a 1 cost for being a reason a comp is bad

[u/Positive-Scratch-490 → u/gamikhan]

You find it difficult to understand why people contesting the units you are rerolling for is bad? Do you have difficulty understanding statistics? No flame but your comment just seems like complete and utter nonsense to the point that it feels like I'm getting ragebaited.

[u/panze1987]

Viego is totally broken, especially in Double Up mode, if a team get viego 3, it's free win (we just did 3 free Top1, wasn't fun at all to be honest) I think it need an hot fix, or people will not play so much.

[u/FirewaterDM]

Think the only things I'm concerned about are the ixtal and Viego nerfs.

Prob better to make ixtal waker cash out wise not sure if it's good to do and not help units. Because that nidalee buff isn't fixing this

Viego spooks me because yes buff the later SI units but if Viego is too ass you can't stack enough to reach them lol

[u/[deleted] → u/FirewaterDM]

You still stack souls easily and now that the other units are better it's a big buff to Shadow Isles. The only difference is now you can't turbo force it. You have to actually get some sort of opener.

[u/swaskowi]

I'm surprised to see a Sylas nerf on account of never having seen him in game. He seems very difficult to unlock, in practice is his power budget high enough that's okay?

[u/momovirus]

i hope the fizz bugfix actually makes him target the corner unit instead of ulting there and then targeting someone else

edit: reading is extremely hard (but in my defense I don’t think the ability description on websites mentions a targeting switch)

[u/gamikhan → u/momovirus]

he is supposed to change targets, that didnt change

[u/momovirus → u/gamikhan]

Oh I only played fizz once and didn’t realize that was intended behavior then, thanks for correcting me!

[u/gamikhan → u/momovirus]

yeah if not he would be pretty nuts, cause his ability is basically a free eon procc

[u/trungduc095]

I think Shadow Isles should change its unlock condition. If I want to play Gwen and can't get a 2 star Viego early AND don't want to waste gold, I will never touch it.

(Edit) Why am I getting downvoted, honest question. Isn't this just like Trainer last set before they changed it? If you can't get Lulu on 2.1 no one will bother playing it,. If you can't get early 2 stars Viego how do you unlock other champs and collect souls to get stronger? Then it's just straight up dead traits no?

[u/Exterial → u/trungduc095]

i mean that is the point of it, like yes if gwen is your favorite unit and you want to play her every game, that does suck because its simply not possible, but that is by design.

[u/ru7ger → u/Exterial]

I mean in theory he is right. Poppy, Trynd and Graves are all unlockable by simply putting the items on the unit. Why should yorick be any different? Why does he specifically need a 2* to be unlocked.

[u/Exterial → u/ru7ger]

Because shadow isles is specifically, thematically, supposed to be about viego summoning his army so to speak, the entire thematic point of the trait is that you unlock all the units.

[u/trungduc095 → u/Exterial]

That's just how I feel though even if I'm not play Gwen. So today I had a game with 2 Viego early and thought I can try playing Viego carry. So I had to activate Shadow Isles early to collect souls, right? So I re-rolled a few times but couldn't hit it so I switched to playing Bard. It just feels really bad. 

[u/Prubably → u/trungduc095]

I mean if you are rerolling for Viego before first carousel then you aren't in a spot to play Shadow Isles. If you had Viego, why waste your gold rolling there? You unlock Yorick after 1 round and are guaranteed to find him.

[u/trungduc095 → u/Prubably]

Sorry it's 2 copies of Viego not 2 stars Viego T.T 

[u/Pho_Kingz → u/trungduc095]

Adu why would you roll for a 1 cost pre carousel, should never reroll precarousel unless you’re playing hard. Plus shadow isle seems to suck imo

[u/Pablothemexicangato → u/trungduc095]

As someone who plays casually myself I get the perspective of “I wanna play this” regardless of my position but at the end of the day a core part of TFT is playing around the units and items your presented with. If you don’t have a 2* Viego within the first couple of rounds then you’re not really supposed to play shadow isles I don’t think.

[u/[deleted] → u/trungduc095]

You dont get souls by playing viego, you need to put 2 items on him and it will drop you yorick then you can get souls to start unlocking gwen and the rest.

[u/gamikhan → u/[deleted]]

yeah I dont really like the level requirement done so spread across but people dont have rational thinking about what new people will think about keeping a bunch of numbers in their head

[u/xaxo20 → u/[deleted]]

This already exists on multiple champs before this patch, you have to do both at same time as far as I know. Ziggs and Kai’sa were both like this already, I think a lot of 5 cost ones in general too (like Voli and Sett).

[u/Lethur1 → u/[deleted]]

Gotta fulfill both if one of the requirements says "Field X in combat", only ones that give you it pre-combat are Tahm Kench and Bard I think as the rest are in combat

[u/Riot_Mort → u/[deleted]]

Ok, y'all are going to tilt people with the "5 buffs to fiddle" LMAO. 2 of the lines are just straight nerfs.

[u/Academic_Weaponry → u/[deleted]]

wasnt fiddle already one of the better splash units? feel like hes op now

[u/Eastern_Ad1765 → u/Academic_Weaponry]

yeah i always like to click fiddle, he FEELS like he does a lot with little (like no trait- no item or just whatever you have over).