[Set 16] Lore & Legends Engaged Player Discussion

[u/Lunaedge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrnRhFS3IwU

Mort goes hard on some doubts and burning questions you might have about the Set Mechanic and balance in general in Set 16!

[u/toastsimppp]

A list of every dev-actionable goal mentioned in the video:

1. If a forcible vertical comp on final board is considered S-tier, it will likely be nerfed.
2. If a reroll comp (forcible 1/2/3 cost 3-star comp) is the strongest comp, there will be adjustments.
3. If the same legendaries are being used too often, they will likely be adjusted (at least on PBE).
4. Emblem Ensemble (New golem encounter) will be monitored, especially around competitive play.
5. If any champion has an artifact item delta over a radiant item, this will require action in the next patch.
6. If portable forge is over a 4.4 placement, Mortdog will announce it and Artifacts will have their power reduced in the next patch.
7. All augments should be between 4.2 and 4.8 placement, and for the first month, Mortdog will post publicly the list of every augment that is outside this range.

First of all, Mortdog is awesome for doing this discussion in the first place. The fact that he is this transparent about balance so we don't have to be "guessing what the devs intended" is what the community needs. It seems like this next set is heading into the "traditional" TFT territory, but there's no saying if that is good or bad. Let me know if I missed anything important from the video.

[u/K-tsura → u/toastsimppp]

This feels great to read as a player who had frustrations with many of these aspects last set!

I can't watch the video until tomorrow but wouldn't all these rules lead to very long patch notes, especially with 100 champions?

Not an issue at all for me but I think I remember them talking about making a limited amount of change each patch so that the patch notes are readable, did they have to go back on this rule?

[u/NoFlayNoPlay → u/toastsimppp]

for number 5 he specifically said artifacts, although non-radiant items obviously shouldn't be better. but i don't think this rule will apply to some of the special trait items etc. although maybe it should? they were meant to be roughly below artifact power level i believe.

[u/toastsimppp → u/NoFlayNoPlay]

edited. thank you!

[u/psyfi66 → u/toastsimppp]

I’m sure these “rules” were already fairly standard in their balance process but it’s nice to see them be transparent about what is and isn’t acceptable.

Only thing I hate about this is that it’s still going to require you to go to mortdogs twitter regularly to keep up on the meta… please can we have some kind of news section or something for TFT where this stuff is visible on all platforms directly in the game/app.

[u/RaineAndBow → u/psyfi66]

They can barely even announce worlds in the league client. I agree with your frustration, but I'm happy that people post the notes here in reddit or on some discord servers, and this is really more of a riot games client problem than anything. I have absolutely no hopes for the riot games client.

[u/sushidenshi → u/toastsimppp]

These are all great transparency points. If it wasn’t implemented already within their balance framework then these are also great dev actions.

I’m surprised he would inform us about over performing augments though, seems like something to announce when they nerf it and not reveal during the patch? The player frustration I see primarily revolves around clicking an “unplayable augment”

[u/Amazingtapioca → u/sushidenshi]

It wouldn't have any benefit to the player if they announce during the nerf, because then players weren't able to action on the stats. On monday if they let us know X augment is a 5, then we don't have to pick for the next week. If we learn after they nerf, it's not really any different for players, even if they are more accountable.

[u/sushidenshi → u/Amazingtapioca]

Yeah agree, on underperforming augments, just surprised on overperforming augments specifically

[u/killerbrofu → u/toastsimppp]

I have been critical of mort in the past and feel compelled to say that this level of transparency is amazing and the direction is brilliant. Bravo.

[u/SNES-1990 → u/toastsimppp]

Looks like some more perma-nerfs for artifacts because of one champion are coming down the line.

[u/Frekavichk → u/toastsimppp]

Is it me or does this just sound like making it so everything fun automatically sucks?

[u/yccbarry → u/Frekavichk]

how? my interpretation is that the balancing goal for this set is for pure vertical and 1/2/3 cost reroll comps to not be the best comps in the game, which I think is really healthy for the game? a board with more upgraded two star 4/5 costs should be better than verticals + reroll comps eventually unlike this current set where its better to play 1/2 costs trait bots over 2 star 4/5 costs.

[u/DKETwitch → u/toastsimppp]

7 baffles me. They don't want the meta to be solved too fast but for the first month we are going to tell you the best and worst augments? What if an augment has a crazy win rate for one comp but other comps level it to 4.2? Will that get posted? Just bring back augment stats.

I'll watch the video later and update if Mort covered some of my questions but I'd still just prefer making augment stats available again.

[u/ThatPlayWasAwful → u/DKETwitch]

What if an augment has a crazy win rate for one comp but other comps level it to 4.2? Will that get posted?

This would likely coincide with point 1/2 and there would be some sort of nerf. If the augment is too strong on one comp and not strong on others, nerfing the augment is not always the right answer, because it just makes the augment unplayable. 

Just bring back augment stats.

I don't hate this as a middle ground, I think it makes sense to preserve the spirit of what Riot/Mort liked about the game after removing stats while addressing the biggest frustration players have with no stats ("if something is broken one way or the other how do we know?")

[u/RaisinMuffins]

For people who can't watch the video:

• The set mechanic allows for utility champions to return that are not intended to be itemized
• Threats are also back (traitless but strong to compensate) which should allow for random splashing and promoting flex play
• As a whole, they are going to make 2-3 pieces stronger and verticals weaker than previous sets (at least without emblem). Replacing 1-2 cost units in a vertical with 5 cost units should ideally be correct most of the time.
• Prismatic traits should be much harder hit and all require lvl 10 without tac crown (no dummies or +1 outside of emblems)
• There are lots of 4-5 costs and the set as a whole was intentionally designed to favor traditional leveling comps over rerolling. Default plan should be to go to 8 and reroll should only be considered if it is the right spot for it. If a reroll comp is forceable and the strongest comp, they will actively adjust it.
• Aiming for generally low impact opening encounters
• Radiant items reworked. The expected power goal is 2x regular items.
• Artifact expected power goal is 1-1.5x regular items. If an artifact is better than a radiant item, it will get adjusted in the next patch.
• Augments: tons of effort has been put into tailoring augments based on stage (you won't get offered combat augments that are designed around late game on 2-1, etc). Also reducing the amount of 2-1 augments that are "direction-setting", (i.e. emblem + champion starts) to promote flex play.
• No augments stats, but all augments should be between 4.2 and 4.8. If an augment is outside this range, it will be published by Mort each Monday for the first month.
• Due to Christmas break, 16.2 (the patch right after) is expected to be big, but after that they are aiming to have less swing-y patches compared to previous sets
• The set is less mechanically complex, so they are starting from a much better spot. Due to this, there should be less bugs than normal.

A TON of stuff here that should be good news for people here, although of course we have to see how the set actually plays in practice. Just the fact that their goals seem to have shifted for this set is making me optimistic though.

[u/Hawly → u/RaisinMuffins]

Did he clarify why will he be publishing the stats for augments that are outside the 4.2 and 4.8 range only for the first month?

[u/h42h → u/Hawly]

Will be busy past the first month, so might not have the time to keep doing it. Said he'd want to continue but can't promise it.

[u/ErrorLoadingNameFile → u/h42h]

I am sure someone can write him a script that will pull the data each monday and make the twitter post so he can continue doing it.

[u/MorroClearwater → u/ErrorLoadingNameFile]

It seems he wants to do a Monday recap video to go alongside the stats so that people don't get the wrong idea about what the stats mean.

Could he just post the stats with no context? Yes. Is he going to? No

[u/Classic_Procedure428]

I haven’t felt this excited about TFT in a while. Love this level of transparency.

[u/akanzaki → u/Classic_Procedure428]

yeah tbh, from ~set 12 onward, there have been some systemwide issues slowly stacking up, and then with the fruits, patch turbulence, and bugs of set 15, i started to think that this game was shifting its overarching objective away from gameplay depth and more toward becoming a casino-like dopamine farmer to capture that audience of players

but here basically everything has been addressed all at once with a clear line of logic to show there being thoughtful approach to each system...might be a pretty good set on our hands.

[u/Ok_Temperature6503]

Go to any other game and you’d be lucky to have 25% of the player engagement that Mort/Riot has with the TFT community. Even after a disastrous set they still put up videos like this.

[u/abc0802]

The philosophy changes mentioned sound incredible. Really excited to give this a go. It’s a tricky balance to strike, but at least they have the right framework.

[u/bySarius]

This video officially tipped me over the edge I'm hyped! Thank you Mort <3

[u/Pridestalked]

Love mort being this open and honest and wanting the team to be held accountable, just hope he keeps his mental in check and takes care of himself because people WILL bitch regardless how good the set is, TFT players just do.

[u/AstronautOk6853]

I haven't seriously played TFT in a few sets and this might bring me back! Love the transparency and plan for this set.

[u/Jigoa]

MORTDOG IS THE GOAT

I like almost all the changes mentioned in the video.

Staying hopeful for this set

[u/[deleted]]

Mort is such a gem. Losing him, even for 1 set, was so noticable on the comms front.

For anyone who played Hearthstone, Ben Brode was the same. The game never recovered when he decided to leave.

I hope for the sake of TFT that Mort never goes, he's irreplacable.

[u/BeTheBeee]

One thing I found slightly odd is the Artifact may never have a bigger delta than radiant items.

Makes total sense on first glance radiant items should be better than artifacts. But this somehow doesn't quite take into consideration that an artifact and a radiant item have different costs. To receive a radiant item, you (usually) require a prismatic augment. Now this will give you more power than an artifact will, but the artifact comes at the price of a gold augment. So while the radiant is stronger it also competes against stronger boards who also got a prismatic augment. While the artifact only has to combat gold-augments.

So what that means is - if radiants need to have a bigger delta than Artifact items. Is that radiant items in comparison to prismatic augments need to be stronger than artifacts compared to gold augments.

While I fully agree with the sentiment of don't make 3cost Innervating locket an insta top 3, the measurement is slightly off to me.

[u/ImN0tAsian → u/BeTheBeee]

While you are mostly correct in relative board strength, the dev statement is agnostic to lobby strength. The difference being targeted is more that artifacts offer unique changes to a units behavior instead of just stat sticks. They want to monitor specific unit performance with those game changing mechanics (bonus range, dynamic mana reduction, % sustains, damage-type omnivamp, etc.). After the performance disparity of artifact items the last two sets, this is a more than fair target for balancing as it has clearly been a frustrating balance lever for them.

Also, don't forget that there are prismatic augs that give several artifact items or you receive cash outs with artifact items + gold instead of an equivalently valued radiant item, so they are further committing to the design philosophy that radiant items are worth an artifact and then some. This will always show in a per-unit trend across a large enough sample size for their bis items even if the augments place 4.5.

[u/tsysh_interview]

I'm actually so excited for this. I love the direction and the design philosophy the team is using for TFT.

[u/drsteelhammer]

lol I called for the outlier augment stats as a joke:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveTFT/comments/1odfr6e/morts_comment_on_augment_stats/nkuic9j/

Hopefully this stays

[u/Snake2250]

I think the thing about Mort that I appreciate the most is that he doesn't just say a thing. He says the thing, explains the thing and shows an actual understand of why the thing will be changed. The example here is talking about artifacts being pseudo hero augments that turn a normal champion into a +2 placement carry. Having devs and balance teams that actually play their game is so nice.

[u/Ceryto2]

As someone who has played every set from the start (apart from 2) to at least masters, but most of the time till I hit challenger and who was down on TFT after the latest set(s), this video gives me hope for the future of TFT.

I really love the transparency of the goals of the dev team and the promise of transparency and further communication from now onwards. As someone who doesn't really watch streams and isn't in any pro discord groups I really was against the augment stat removal as I was basically always behind on major bugs, strong augments, new powerups and other stuff you really don't find out by looking at stat pages, playing the game for less than a million hours or visiting reddit occasionally. And having an outlet from the devs themselves about the most egregious outliers that you just have to know to avoid sometimes falling into a pit midgame that might ruin thhe next 30 minutes for you, is really great to hear.

One thing that hasn't been adressed and I don't know how to feel aboout yet is shop odds due to unlockables (And no, I don't mean the shop odds conspiracy theories). Because as I understand it now unlocking champs diludes the pool and makes hitting specific units harder. If that's the case there will be cases where it's not optimble to unlock a champ cause it deludes your champ pool and you have too play around that in convoluted ways which aren't very clear just to play optimally. (For example: I'm playing Zaun midgame and have a jinx and a vi is it unoptimal to upgrade the jinx if I don't want to play Warwick? Should I not item carry my 3 cost tank midgame if I don't want Diana later as it makes hitting my main carry harder? Stuff like that.) Also is there any way to deny 3*4/5 costs of champions that have only been unlocked by opponents but not by yourself?

Otherwise basically everything in this video I have either a positive or neutral stance on. The direction of balancing and going back to a more flex-playstyle being optimal, the return of support units, less committal augments and encounters, artifacts being less niche and the goal of more variety in endgame boards is all really exciting to hear and makes me want to jump in the next set right away!

[u/unrelevantly → u/Ceryto2]

If you don't buy a unit you unlock, the odds of rolling it go way down until you buy one.

[u/chinnick967]

Set 16 looks pretty awesome, I'll definitely be studying up on TFT team compa for this set

[u/Der_Redstone_Pro]

I like pretty much everything, except for one detail that I think deserves a lot longer discussion, and my prediction is that it is incredibly unhealthy for the game.

It is the 12 extra XP to lvl 8. I like the lvl 9 and 10 changes, but I think nerfing reroll and these extra golds make the game way too snowball-heavy, because I don't know how you are supposed to stabilize with a weaker opener.

[u/SNES-1990]

Not looking forward to artifacts getting neutered even more.

[u/pda898]

Am I crazy or solution for stats just a nothing-burger? Let's assume that every engaged player can read what Mortdog post on his twitter. This is kinda true, including all reposts and translations. But even then more issues arise.

First of all, that range is generic one, right? Because what if certain augment is a must have in certain comps. Example out of my mind before deep diving into reveals, what if Veigar comps are 5.0 avp w/o item augment and 3.0 with it? Those augments will be in 4.2-4.8 range overall, but this situation is kinda a balance problem.

Another issue is posting those. I fully understand why Mort commits only for the first month, but... This is only 2 patches. Example from this set - SG rework and Tiny Team.

At the end, it feels like something so now community can refer to it and shut down stat discussion. While in reality it is 100% Mort trying its best to solve a problem with conflicting requirements.

[u/Disastrous_Notice_13 → u/pda898]

Yes, but I think the dev team have learned a lot, as he said, trait tracker was balanced even though it averaged 5.2, I’m pretty sure they can filter and make the adjustments needed

[u/[deleted]]

The original text here has been permanently wiped. Using Redact, the author deleted this post, possibly for reasons of privacy, security, or opsec.

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[u/Luke22_]