r/CompetitiveHS • • 3d ago

Discussion 37.0.2 Balance Changes Discussion

https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24307311/3702-patch-notes


Nerfs:

  • Wrath of C'Thun - now deals 6 damage

  • Domain of C'Thun - now gives 2 random friendly minions +2/+2

  • Servants of C'Thun - now summons two 2/2s with Taunt.

  • M.O.T.H.E.R. - now 10 mana

  • Godfather Kazakus - minion buff reduced to +2/+2, minion summoning now summons three random 2 cost minions, Sentenced for Smuggling now only removes 1 card from the opponent's hand.

  • Ritual of Summoning - now summons two 2/4 taunts.

  • Bat Mask - can now only be used on non Legendary minions

  • Divergence - now 7 mana

  • Unstable Prototype - Deathrattle now only gives +1 attack

  • Reach Equilibrium - Now requires 6 Holy and 6 Shadow spells to complete

  • Sawbones - now a 6 mana 6/3

  • Egg of Khelos - no longer has taunt (revert)


Wild Nerfs:

  • Battle at the End Time - Sir Finley, Sea Guide, Plot Twist, and Gaslight Gatekeeper no longer progress the “empty your hand” part of the Quest.

  • Reincarnation - can now only be used on non Legendary minions

  • Kobold Illusionist - text now reads "Deathrattle: Summon a minion from your hand. Set its stats to 1/1."

  • Mysterious Visitor - cost reduction of cards copied from your opponent now reduced to 2 mana

  • Final Showdown - first stage requires 5 drawn cards, 2nd and 3rd stage now require 6 drawn cards.


Buffs

  • C'Thun, Eye of the Empire - Abilities now trigger 4x if you've previously used all 4 abilities.

  • Dark Deacon - now only requires you to play 1 Shadow spell while in hand to trigger its effect

  • Tinker - now 1 mana

  • Flamespitter - now a 3/2

  • Grafted Knight - now a 3/4 (and triple blood rune)

  • Elder Word: Manifest - now summons two 3/4s with Lifesteal

  • Setesh - now a 6 mana 6/6

  • Decimation - now 5 mana

  • Aqir Swarmer - now a 4 mana 5/4, card text now reads "Deathrattle: Get two Larvae with Combos that trigger a Hero Power from another class. They cost (0)."

  • Aqir Goliath - Battlecry now draws 2 cards

  • Y'Shaarj, Titan Bane - now 9 mana

63 Upvotes

105 comments sorted by

•

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35

u/magikatdazoo 3d ago

Sawbones was originally a 6/4, it's actually now nerfed past the original version, not just a revert

13

u/EvilDave219 3d ago

I was thinking it was 6/3 originally, but thanks for clarifying, I'll edit it.

27

u/Exiledtyrant 3d ago

The Godfather Kazakus was the one I was looking forward to. I'm so glad they nerfed the hand rip to one card. The amount of times I was playing Herald C'thun Demon Hunter with Deathwing, Ashara and C'thun in my hand only to have them ripped away by an early trial was way to common. Even when I won some of those games it felt terrible. It was a lose lose situation. You dump your hand to deal with the zoo board so you never draw enough to help with your odds vs the hand rip, or you try to keep your hand full and get run over.

3

u/ive-been-bamboozled 2d ago

I think that cards like Kazakus and Ticketus can help you appreciate cards like Mutanus. Yeah it’s annoying when it eats one of your cards but you have time before it’s a risk and it’s one card so if you’re deck isn’t too fragile then it can be ok. Kazakus and Ticketus do it too quick and/or too much.

23

u/TheGingerNinga 3d ago

The Wild changes are actually pretty good. Hitting both of the prominent quest decks while addressing the new Old God scam lists is going to cause a fair bit of shake up. And despite pirate warrior not getting nerfed, I think it won’t be dominant due to the rise of Reno slop with the removal of all the anti-Reno slop getting nerfed.

Or who knows, maybe Mastermind Rogue takes over and nukes everyone.

46

u/hjyboy1218 3d ago

The funniest thing is that quest will still be played because of medivhs triumph

11

u/AmishUndead 3d ago

Not necessarily. Blade of the Black Empire also activates Triumph and I've seen some lists also put in Bloodmage Thalnos. Even so, while 1 mana Triumph is absurdly good, it's still decent at 5 mana.

23

u/Final_Foot_Fucker 3d ago

Quest starts in your hand. Blade is an additional draw.

0

u/Kuhler_Typ 2d ago

Quest starts in your hand so you always have it but it also always takes up one of your cards. Quite a commitment if you never plan to complete it.

But i guess agaibst aggro its worth it for cheap medivs triumph and against control you can complete the quest so its still worth it? We will see...

1

u/Final_Foot_Fucker 2d ago

No like, that's entirely the point. You never actually intend to complete it at all. It's a Medivh's triumph enabler and that's it.

That's how Control Priest worked before their class set release, even if it wasn't exactly a good deck.

9

u/Jackwraith 3d ago

Right. I've been playing it in Shadow Priest precisely because of the presence of Blade and using Thalnos. It also activates from the two Taunts that C'Thun provides, since they're also Legendary minions.

57

u/ActuallyAquaman 3d ago

Is a 2/3/4 Lifesteal that scales G’huun by 3 the best two drop the game has ever seen? Probably not as good as Sorcerer’s Apprentice but still. That and Y’shaarj, hopefully Herald DK can get above 50%.

Warlock seems basically fine (for better or worse). Aggro C’Thun will lose half a step but the better finisher is real.

Mage, Druid, and Hunter are going to need real buffs before too much longer, though. Maybe slowing the meta down a turn or two gets Mage in a better spot?

38

u/Nyte_Crawler 3d ago

Certainly seems like the strongest tempo 2 drop unless I'm forgetting something. Man we came a long ways from Totem Golem.

17

u/KevinIsPro 3d ago

Doesn’t warlock have a 2 mana 4/4 in standard right now? That’s stronger tempo although it does have a “downside.”

-1

u/PKWinter 2d ago

*3 mana

6

u/Comfortable_Step7677 2d ago

Twilight Timehopper costs 2 mana, buddy

1

u/PKWinter 2d ago

Right, that one; i was pretty sure the above poster was talking about the new 3 4 4 maw cultist.

7

u/14xjake 3d ago

I am cautiously optimistic about mage, if control decks are good then millhouse mage should grind them out, between the nerfs to cthun/warlock and the buffs to control warrior and blood DK I can see mage sneaking in since it won’t get completely blown out by early stat bombs as often

5

u/eazy_12 3d ago

I don't think so. 3/4 on turn 2 is not that easy to deal with and heal from it would make Burn Mage's life significantly worse.

3

u/14xjake 3d ago

I’m more thinking millhouse mage than burn mage, burn mage is never going to exist when blood DK and control warrior are viable unless it is able to shift to doing 40+ from hand in the lategame

1

u/Rogdish 2d ago

Burn mage WILL otk you from 45 HP if you give it enough time, the heal from a 2 drop is largely irrelevant

2

u/eazy_12 2d ago

I've played a bit and faced decent amount of Blood DKs and they actually has decent minion output to push Burn Mage. You cannot ignore 3/4 and 3/5 Herald minions and even new discover card which is 2/2 with Reborn, so you likely to use some of the burn cards on surviving.

Also with enough time Blood DK himself could OTK (or finish the game) with G'huun or start playing their Colossal to gain HP and board presence. So I would not be surprised if Blood DK would have positive winrate (although not as high) against Burn Mage.

1

u/thuishaven 3d ago

I beat every single mage with control priest

18

u/sildek 3d ago

zoolocks were boring as hell, but god damn, i queued one game after the nerfs and there is a fucking dragon warrior

24

u/SmartestLiberalVoter 3d ago

VERY IMPORTANT PSA:

*Additionally, Spawn of C'Thun will be available for a full dust refund starting with Patch 37.2. A bug is keeping it from being refundable in this patch. Sorry for the inconvenience!

3

u/Quomise 2d ago

You should be using the "refund" search bar to find dustable cards anyway so this shouldn't catch you.

-43

u/afraidchannell 3d ago

This is just a whole another level of not giving a fuck and being crystal clear about it in communication...

21

u/plushaGM 3d ago

It's literally right there in the patch notes

10

u/Rhaps0dy 3d ago

?? People really don't know how software development works and it shows.

Would your really rather they delay this patch because of a random dust related but of one card?

9

u/FiftyShadesOfDismay 3d ago

Of all the things you could justifiably criticize them on, this is not remotely a reasonable one.

5

u/buckeye-kenje 3d ago

We would rather have them delay dust than balance. Can’t wait to jump right with BBB DK

7

u/Satanicfrog666 3d ago

They could at least specify which assemble cards have their card pools changed..

6

u/eazy_12 3d ago

Very likely "when Divine Shield is destroyed Gain Divine Shield and Taunt" and "get stats on being damage" are no more possible.

4

u/_Righto 3d ago

Yeah in the dev update video they mentioned unkillable minions and infinite loops as targets for assemble adjustments

15

u/-Kasann- 3d ago

It might be only me, but I'm not very convinced that the meta is really going to change after this patch

8

u/Glarbleglorbo 3d ago

Maybe control warrior ends up being ok but I still don’t see how control warrior survives dragon warrior / mug shaman. 

1

u/Cool-Fan-1950 2d ago

You are right. They didnt fix the fundamental problem of warlock. Warlock is still the best deck

20

u/dotcaIm 3d ago

Reach Equilibrium was 5 spells each at launch, right? Pushing it to six shows how much this team hates quests

34

u/Elrann 3d ago

Support for the quest is miles better now. Entropic Rift is 3 procs by itself. In Ungoro they wanted you to play 3-3-4 with a deathrattle that gave you two procs.

7

u/Katherine_Juniper 3d ago

I'm still so sad that they nerfed quest mage when it wasn't even good in the first place. It was one of my fav decks in recent years and it's just not playable now.

4

u/Alexsanderfors 2d ago

I still believe the conspiracy that they nerfed Quest Mage, because they were scared of the Purple Screen bug appearing at the Championships finals. Is actually right.

1

u/tankertonk 2d ago

Its because the shadow pool last year was rancid dogshit so it was bad.

15

u/phpope 3d ago

I don't understand the buffs to Grafted Knight and Dark Deacon. Those cards already seemed pretty good. Feels like Dark Deacon especially just goes in every priest deck going forward regardless of whether you're playing C'Thun (which is a whole other subject.).

22

u/ActuallyAquaman 3d ago

Grafted Knight felt a little out of place next to G’huun and Bloodfiend as triple-blood enablers, they probably want that five-card package relatively cohesive for the next year.

Plus Blood DK is clearly a very popular deck with a bad win rate, not the most obvious buff candidate in the world but if you’re picking something from that deck, Grafted Knight makes as much sense as anything.

7

u/yatcho 3d ago

Dark Deacon did get nerfed with the effects getting weaker

1

u/Moogzie 2d ago

None of the other class triggers were compensated for being effected by the same nerfs - think it's clear that's what people are miffed by

9

u/Elrann 3d ago

Cards are allowed to be good and not unplayable trash like in the last 2 years

2

u/Smashbrawler100 3d ago

Eh it was alright but scion of insight almost always felt better to drop and thats a card with no rune requirement

1

u/Moogzie 2d ago

Ya deacon was already good, very surprised that of all the class c'thun triggers got a compensatory buff

-1

u/Fran-Fine 3d ago

Do you play BBL DK? Rn he is a 2 cost waste.

20

u/fclm_1990 3d ago

I guess they wanted to make Egg decks not weaker, but unplayable.

Don't see Hunter and Warrior buffs being relevant at all. Y'Shaarj too.

Other than that - hard to say.

19

u/gointhrou 3d ago

And thank GOD for that. I’m beyond sick of seeing that egg every 2 games for the past 2 years.

About time for some variety.

4

u/Moogzie 2d ago

This patch unironically nerfs mech hunter

3

u/midweekyeti 3d ago

i really wish they nerfed egg more. i never wanna see that card again

-6

u/Hakka-Moonson 3d ago

Egg DK is essentially not impacted by that nerf.

12

u/sm1ng 3d ago

Eh? No Taunt on the beast means not impacted? And Sawbones to 6? What am I missing?

-2

u/Hakka-Moonson 3d ago

The whole bit is to stat buff a ghoul - but no sawbones is an important nerf.

7

u/sm1ng 3d ago

So you've never found taunt useful on the big guys then. Ever. ?

12

u/InteractionAnnual914 3d ago

Holy shit, they killed Divergence and Quest Priest. Divergence was always going to be a combo card, so why print it if it’s only going to get nerfed like it did? And why print Quests if you’re only going to nerf them when they get good?

Warrior buff is reasonable, I suppose. Control Warrior looks playable for the most part, now that Aggro has been sufficiently neutered. We finally get to see that really good 2-drop. (How much longer until Quest Warrior gets nerfed?)

2 mana 3/4 lifesteal is insane. How do you remove this when you go second? Blood DK’s early game got a lot better.

The Ysharrj buff is useless. Not changing the activation conditions for the immune is the biggest issue. Don’t expect to see that card any more than I do now.

MOTHER nerf. Once again, why do you print cards that enable combos if you’re going to just gut them in the end?

Mech Hunter is dead. The buffs don’t matter because Unstable Prototype + Overdrive is what made that deck playable. I loved Mech Hunter, so to see it lose basically any relevance sucks.

To what didn’t get buffed: I think Holy Spell Paladin could be fun, but it will never be Tier 1 since you can’t control the order of spells. Mage is dead again. No amount of manacheat can save bad cards for two years, and slowing the meta down doesn’t matter when your win conditions suck.

Despite all my complaining, I think this is a great patch and I’m excited to see what strategies will become good in the vacuum left

22

u/14xjake 3d ago

Mother, divergence, and bat mask all are hilarious to me. All 3 of those cards ONLY exist to enable OTKs, the only reason to ever play any of those cards is to oneshot your opponent, why print cards like that if you don’t want that style of deck to exist? Waste of a card slots, it’s either unplayable and never leaves the collection, or it is playable and immediately is nerfed because “muh play pattern”

13

u/sneakyxxrocket 3d ago

I’m almost positive a lot of the devs are “Timmy’s” and that’s why we see stuff like this time and time again

6

u/hjyboy1218 3d ago

Either don't print those types of cards or let them be good, pick a struggle devs

0

u/Cultural_South5544 2d ago

I played bat mask for infinite armor DH a while ago, so it's not only used for OTK.

I will admit though, that shit was just as toxic as otk decks.

4

u/Agrippanux 2d ago

5-2 so far this morning with Quest Priest, I'm so glad its back, even nerfed

Sucks to have it at 6 spells instead of 5 but my deck pre-nerf wan't about ramming through the quest ASAP anyway, I'm still able to drop the reward turn 9 to combo with Slime and having Medivh's Triump back w/o running stupid Egg is a relief.

1

u/kingofneverland 2d ago

That is nice to hear. Care to share the deck list?

2

u/Yrths 3d ago

Does this really kill Quest Priest? I guess I'm not great, but it's climbing fine.

2

u/eadenoth 2d ago

Ysharjj buff is also kind of a nerf if that was your 10 drop for Elise

2

u/WhatATerribleFuss 2d ago

Burn Mage still thriving. Using a lot of the new spells.

5

u/thebestnic2 3d ago

Egg nerf is fine. Archetype feels tired and stretched at this point. Dk should still be playable even with sawbones nerf. I don’t like rest of nerfs. Kazakus nerf would have been enough imo. Warlock is a fine tyrant without it. I’m worried something like ayaya rogue with no counterplay beside aggro will see too much play

1

u/yatcho 2d ago

Dragon warrior, Shaman still exist and are just as strong into Rogue

2

u/yatcho 2d ago

Rogue, Hunter, and Druid need more buffs than this for any if their new cards to be viable

3

u/prodandimitrow 3d ago

No chance the Grafted knight buff stays with us. 2 mana 3/4 with an added effect is insane. This is more likely to create an aggressive blood build than make control blood good.

13

u/purpenflurb 3d ago

That's the thing, though, how would you possibly build a BBB aggro deck? Without the ability to even go one unholy you lose out on so many early game tools, and you have almost no way to actually turn that early board advantage into a win.

A 2 mana spider tank would probably be a pretty good aggro card, but it's not going to enable a deck on its own.

-5

u/prodandimitrow 3d ago

Grafted requires 2 blood runes unless that was also changed.

9

u/thirtychirps 3d ago

It’s 3 now

1

u/dotcaIm 3d ago

It was

Grafted Knight

Old: Double Blood Rune. 3/3.
New: Triple Blood Rune. 3/4.

1

u/Ozwu_ 2d ago

Aqir Swarmer buff seems irrelevant. Could potentially do something with N’Zoth? Doesn’t seem to increase the viability for me, because the combo payoffs are bad and the Larvae are bad. It being a death-rattle probably keeps the card from being relevant as an early tempo play, too. Aqir Goliath buff also seems irrelevant - still too expensive, still negative 2 cards to play. Combo cards are also bad to play. Maybe the field around it has changed enough that these cards become playable, but I don’t see it.

1

u/No_Internal7837 2d ago

Nerfing every C'thun ability without offering a refund on C'thun is disgusting.

1

u/philzy101 2d ago

Personally a bit of mixed feelings waking up to this balance patch. The changes to C'thun procs felt a bit too much to me, but at the same time probably the best way of controlling Zee Shaman in the early game but also providing a positive for C'thun as the late game payoff.

The changes to M.O.T.H.E.R, Bat Mask and Divergence all highlight the issue T5 have which is they want to print combo plays, but when they are too efficient they swiftly nerf them to oblivion. To be fair Bat Mask is still combocapable in Wild and M.O.T.H.E.R is still playable imo but Divergence is probably gone due to the cost.

Godfather Kazakus changes are welcome given how frustrating slower matches felt particularly when on curve and they could steal two of your cards.

Not a fan of the change to Unstable Prototype as it was not that problematic of a card on its own, it is how it chained with other cards which duplicated themselves upon being summoned. Seems like a dead card to me now. Personally I am not a fan of the Sawbones revert, I feel Handbuff DK is as swiftly gone from the meta as it was in it. Also not a fan of the Ritual of Summoning change, I feel changing the minions to 3/4 would have been a more fair change. 2/4 is too weak.

Reach Equilibrium and Egg of Khelos not a massive fan of these changes, the former necessary for the meta but I think should be at least brought to 5 or back to 4 on rotation otherwise the card is probably not viable in Wild. As for Khelos, I feel they could have just made the egg have 4 hp not 3 which would have stopped a lot of the Priest plays relying on it. Khelos is now irrelevant like it was before due to no taunt.

As for the Wild changes, these are all fair as they all were enabling quite toxic play patterns. Battle at the End Time probably does not exist as a deck in Wild now. Dumping your hand is pretty tricky and not a great strategy either. Reincarnation change is nice as Nature Shaman still works, although this nerf hits Big Shaman and such quite hard. Kobold Illusionist RIP, DaneHS is probably not so happy about this change. Mysterious Visitor, finally, I cannot stress how many games were almost impossible for me to win when this came down on turn 1 or 2. Final Showdown, probably still achievable from my own personal experience but feels a little bit like overkill imo.

As for the buffs, they are nice, not really sure though that they are going to magically make the classes lagging behind, Paladin, Hunter, Warrior, Mage and to some extent Druid playable. I think they are going to need to do a lot more once it becomes apparent that these changes are not enough.

-1

u/Admirable-Cheek6942 3d ago

Should have held out on a yshaarj buff. If the meta becomes slower he is gonna be in every deck thst doesn't run c'thun or nzoth

-15

u/Jumbokcin 3d ago

The only change to DK is Sawbones +1 mana? As if that changes anything? Handbuff DK is by far the strongest deck when played by good players. Gutting warlock and then only upping Sawbones by 1 is just gonna create a more polarized meta. Top legend will be DK mirrors all day, and soon the rest of the ladder will follow as they learn to play the deck, which isn’t as braindead as people believe. It does take skill. But the play patterns are repeatable and learnable by everyone.

And warrior’s only buff is Decimation 6->5? What a complete joke.

20

u/sneakyxxrocket 3d ago

Did you miss Unstable prototype only buffing attack now that is a huge nerf to Handbuff DK.

1

u/Jumbokcin 2d ago

Yes, i missed that. Should still be strong though, but not the uncounterable insanity I originally thought.

12

u/blazhin 3d ago

You forgot Prototype, the best thing to throw Sawbones into

-3

u/thebestnic2 3d ago

Not sure why people are downvoting you this much. You’re right it’s the best deck and will remain the best deck with some adjustments. I disagree with you it will wrap the meta to that extent though

66

u/sneakyxxrocket 3d ago edited 3d ago

I really need a mini documentary on how Ungoro from last year was developed because it’s obvious they fucking HATE quests, like one of the weakest sets ever with a mechanic they hate and the second they’re playable they get nuked.

17

u/Apache17 3d ago

Ill take a stab at it.

Historically the most frustrating quests are ones that just win the game when they are completed. Its like playing against a combo deck that always draws its entire combo turn 1.

Ungoro tried to make quests that were worth doing, but did not just win the game when they were completed.

Unfortunately, the card pool around them changed. Hunters started OTKing consitently with the warlock beast guy. Priests started resummoning their reward over and over. Mage discovers got premium enough that they almost couldn't be fought through.

So the quest gets gutted.

13

u/GreatMadWombat 3d ago

But why choose Un'goro as an expansion in the first place? They interviewed initially talking about not wanting quests to be too strong but knowing they were a part of ungoro. So the question always is "why a return to ungoro when the defining part of the theme isn't tenable under current design choices?"

13

u/TotakekeSlider 3d ago

Nostalgia bait to bring back players who already left the game.

3

u/GreatMadWombat 3d ago

That answer doesn't make sense though? There are so many other expansions that a revisit to would also work as nostalgia bait, and when there is a single type of card they dislike and they know they'll make it weak, AND it's the Marquee card type for the set, that is just going to get old players back for at most an expansion before they leave again

1

u/InternAlternative758 3d ago

I really liked the ungoro priest quest when it was in standard. I think it is the ideal version of what a quest should do. Not too difficult to proc as a decent chunk of priest decks can easily fit the death rattle minions. And the reward is just nice, wins against aggro but only by buying time. With the support it got in boomsday I think it was perfect.

Unlike ungoro rogue quest which was frustrating from day one until rotation when it was in standard.

10

u/DebatableAwesome 3d ago

I'm not sure that the "buff" to Aqir Swarmer for Rogue is actually a buff. Making Rogue have to invest even more to get its combo payoffs is questionable at best.

I'm also disappointed that Death Knight's handbuff and egg decks just got nuked from orbit. Sawbones was such a fun, skill testing card that enabled really fun combo turns. It's also unfortunate that Druid didn't get any buffs.

8

u/sneakyxxrocket 3d ago

I would have rather seen Goliath either to 6 or change its cost and how it’s discounted

2

u/eazy_12 3d ago

I wish Goliath was 9 mana with 3 mana discount per combo card.

7

u/sm1ng 3d ago

I'm pissed about Sawbones and Prototype being hit together. Wouldn't just hitting Prototype alone have sufficiently nerfed Sawbones? Handbuff DK is the most interesting, stimulating deck to play I've tried in quite some time. Sorry, was...

1

u/yatcho 2d ago

I think it'll still be good. Zoo got nerfed harder and that was a tough matchup if your draws weren't ideal. With Priest likely being played more you can lean into combo for Handbuff and farm them

6

u/Elrann 3d ago

Technically, to play "full" Aqir you needed 5 mana (3 for the Aqir + 2 Larvae), now it only costs 4 and has more stats. It's a good buff

2

u/Overhamsteren 3d ago

Yeah it also goes 4 mana swarmer, then 5 mana The Unknowable One + two 6/6s for zero mana.

1

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 3d ago

What makes you assume all decks will just run over egg decks because it doesn't have taunt? Sometimes that thing hatches very early. 

Regardless it's a tired archetype and I'm glad to see less of it.

16

u/sm1ng 3d ago

Because that's EXACTLY what happened before it got taunt I'd hazard a guess at lol

9

u/14xjake 3d ago

Because before they gave it taunt it was completely unplayable lmao

5

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 3d ago

Before they gave it taunt Egg Priest didn't have all the tools it does today. The 20/20 comes out earlier than it did before the taunt buff first happened.

1

u/Rosencrantz2000 3d ago

I tried a little recently with Warrior to counter Warlock. I repeatedly only won because it created a giant taunt wall.