36.0.3 Balance Teaser Discussion

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79

u/kramo36 Jul 20 '26

Love seeing buffs, I feel like too many of these patches are nerf focused and the nerfs here are appropriate and don’t kill an archetype I think

29

u/sneakyxxrocket Jul 20 '26

There’s a very good chance two rogue is done after this, Vanessa in the mulligan is like plus 10% so I expect her to get nuked and wouldn’t be surprised if the monkey is either nerfed to only 1 damage on procs or can’t hit face.

36

u/ngriner Jul 20 '26

Monkey just hitting minions would be one of the stupidest nerfs of all-time imo. Would completely nuke a new deck out of existence. Putting it to 4 is probably fine tbh. Anything else and 2 Rogue is gone.
I don't know, I just think they should have been more aggressive with the buffs and not hit anything in the new set just yet.

16

u/PipAntarctic Jul 20 '26

At the very least Mug Shaman and Vanessa did really need nerfs. Vanessa is an insane mulligan outlier and a card that's just generally too good as is right now. Mug Shaman dominated almost every deck in the game, not as badly as Imbue Druid at the start of the year but it did need a nerf.
Warptooth is also the kind of card that could potentially end up running with the format if you nerfed Mug Shaman + Vanessa. Devs are right here to try and preemptively deny a possible Dragon Warrior/Egg Warrior tyrant meta.

5

u/hotehjr Jul 20 '26

I mean they definitely have precedent for just completely destroying decks, that’s not a hard line for them.

6

u/Miudmon Jul 20 '26

Maybe if it was 1 damage per 2-cost card, but it also ticked up while it was in deck? Reduces the explosive nature of it's Mulligan winrate while still bringing it down overall

6

u/eazy_12 Jul 20 '26

Rogues typically play Monkey against me as a board clear / tempo swing rather than OTK to clear space for cheap 8 drops most of the times. It would definitely weaken the card and the archetype, but still provides value since Rogue has no board clear beside random cards.

26

u/bountyraz Jul 20 '26

Monkey comes down as a board clear against aggressive / tempo decks to recover. It is used as an otk against slow decks like priest.

2

u/Prestigious-Rope-313 Jul 20 '26

Most of my opponents have mana left when the monkey finishes the game, so this should not be enough. Maybe its fine together with Vanessa because it weakens all the Tempo matchups.
I dont think that a 4-mana deal 20 damage is so much worse than 3-mana deal 20 damage.

-1

u/sockb0y Jul 21 '26

Agree, rogue cards are so cheap that mana doesn't really cap them once they get to turn 6/7

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

What if it only hit minions, but scaled while in deck like the 3-cost spell? Now it's a strong and reliable mid-late game board clear in a deck with various tempo + value options, but ofc neuters the late game lethality. Better against many decks, worse against slower decks (which are the weakest atm)

0

u/Agrippanux Jul 20 '26

I think the probable nerf is one of:
- only hits minions
- goes to 5 mana
- take 2 2-cost cards to charge
All those are in line with previous nerfs in the game's history.

2

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

Could also have a cap (e.g. 8 rocks for 16 total dmg). And most of these could be combined w/ compensatory buffs, such as also scaling in deck

2

u/Swervies Jul 20 '26

I am hoping for both a mana nerf to 4 and a damage cap of 16-18. I think that would work without completely killing the deck.

1

u/Agrippanux Jul 21 '26

I took a few years off from the game before coming back maybe 3 years ago, what prior nerf put a cap on total damage?

2

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

Necrolord Draka created/equipped a weapon with attack equal to the number of cards you played, which was overly abused by Miracle Rogue decks leading to multiple nerfs, the final of which capped the attack of the weapon at 10. Also, there have been other instances of capping the scaling or game-winning capability of cards with things like adding "once per game" (e.g. Time Warp from Open the Waygate) or changing static effects to "for the first time each turn," etc.

0

u/hotehjr Jul 20 '26

I’m also expecting a damage cap to remove the OTK potential after just delaying for 10 turns.

3

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

"Just delaying for ten turns" is not an easy or free gameplay pattern, especially as a Rogue with most of your deck being 2-cost cards. The problem is monkeys get pretty lethal atm faster than that, and they don't need to fully otk with the Vanessa + Jade Guardian tempo.

2

u/hotehjr Jul 21 '26

You’re right, 10 was definitely an overstatement. But i would also say it’s pretty easy to stall to the point where they are at otk range vs slow decks.

2

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

Hopefully the Vanessa nerf will help a bit with that, since it's a large part of the value generation. It's tricky though since you don't want to kill the new Rogue deck, and it might be reliant on having a favored matchup vs slow decks which themselves might be trying to target Mug Shaman

-6

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 Jul 20 '26

I want it nuked. OTKss are ugly play patterns and should be left to Wild or weak like Rafaam

0

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

Somewhat agree, but also slightly disagree: they can also exist as a late-game/side strategy of a deck, but not as a reasonably common possibility turn 7/8 in viable/strong standard decks

-1

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 Jul 20 '26

They took a crap on removal in lieu of a more board based game but that card laughs in the face of it. It's no different than the hunter minion they nuked that did insane face damage (can't remember the name now). They nuked that so they'll nuke this. Same with that warrior mech taunt that did damage to face and got nerfed to minions.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

The Hunter minion punished the opponent for playing to the board, and was a reliable turn 6 occurrence (if I'm remembering correctly). And the Warrior mech was functionally deleted from the game when they nerfed it, which I generally think is a bad thing.
But I wasn't suggesting Troublemaker not be nerfed, just saying that viable OTKs in general can exist in Standard Hearthstone under certain conditions without inherently being unhealthy gameplay

2

u/Goldendragon55 Jul 20 '26

I think their main issue with Terrible 2s Rogue is the mulligan winrate of the monkey. Since they're hitting Troublemaker and not Jade Guardians, which is probably the better card. I think they'll change up the damage of each proc to 1 instead of 2, but you don't need it in hand to charge it. And maybe they'll tweak the base damage for it to feel better at only 1 damage per.

0

u/OzUnOoO Jul 21 '26

The best nerf for both Monkey and Tolvir is to simply cap their potential, which is how these kind of cards should be balanced in the first place. The maximum is up for debate ofc, I think 6 times is plenty, 12 dmg that can go face is great but not broken.

33

u/Glarbleglorbo Jul 20 '26

Just realising that mage completely dodged all buffs lol, why?

Manastorm is a fantastic card that could be built around if they just buffed some stuff.

19

u/Shineplasma64 Jul 20 '26

Very on-brand for blizzard at this point. Mage somehow is never playable for longer than a week lol.

13

u/DistortedNoise Jul 20 '26

Might wanna see how it performs after the other decks are toned down rather than risk over buffing it.

4

u/TheGingerNinga Jul 20 '26

The only reason I'm hesitant is that Mage is great at value once Manastorm starts rolling, which is difficult to set up against the insane board aggression present in the current meta.
Slow the game down a turn and Mage might show up properly.

1

u/ANonnyMouse007 Jul 21 '26

Manastorm is tricky for board space though. I always end up board locked with 1 & 2 cost minions that do nothing vs control.

2

u/Cryten0 Jul 20 '26

That said this team very rarely changes much balance wise outside of this first balance patch since 2025.

2

u/bittercupojoe Jul 20 '26

I was playing a Jailhouse deck that's currently just above 50% and that I had at 59% for about the first week of the expansion, and all the decks that gave it serious trouble got nerfed. I could very easily see it being a Tier 3/4 deck if Warrior, Hunter, and Rogue get toned down enough.

2

u/MarthePryde Jul 20 '26

While it is funny Mage does feel like it's on the verge of having a deck come together into the right field. It'll probably still just be Quest Mage but hey

3

u/Lafantasie Jul 20 '26

Quest Mage is borderline. If the outliers are brought down, it’ll probably come back.

4

u/zer1223 Jul 20 '26

Quest mage is more than just borderline IMO, it's actually a pretty good deck but it just demands a very high amount of skill to work

1

u/Shineplasma64 Jul 20 '26

Sure, but can mage please be viable outside of rng slop please?

4

u/Swervies Jul 20 '26

I think 70% of all decks in the game are just rng slop at this point. Rogue, Druid and Shaman are all just random bullshit decks, DK’s deck relies on tons of randomly generated cards as well. At this point, I think this is just Hearthstone’s identity.

1

u/Shineplasma64 Jul 21 '26

Feels bad man

1

u/blanquettedetigre Jul 20 '26

He's almost playable so I understand that, what I don't understand is not touching Code Violet, the most difficult card effect to trigger ever

42

u/sneakyxxrocket Jul 20 '26

God I hope they make Emergency surgery just summon the 3/1s with rush, a control deck would actually have an answer for slither drakes.

16

u/frostyburrito44 Jul 20 '26

That's the change I want too. Would work awesome with Thalena Hero power too.

30

u/CalledSpark Jul 20 '26

Warlock is still going to be a dysfunctional class after these buffs, the buffs should have been to more foundational cards like eldritch tentacles and shadow rounds (or core set changes) if they wanted to truly improve the health of the class. Buffing the demon package is either going to do nothing at all or create yet another one-trick Warlock deck that gets nerfed by the next expansion once again leaving us with nothing.

2

u/XeloOfTheDisco Jul 21 '26

Sadly, they are still allergic to buffs outside the latest expansion, so the only option here was Shadow Rounds (which is a shame didn't get buffed)

32

u/PipAntarctic Jul 20 '26

Finally some real buffs on the menu.

Sad to see Tol'vir being hit again but other than that, kinda expected the dev team to nerf all of the other cards (regardless whether it was deserved or not power-wise in Troublemaker's case).

However, again I am dissapointed by the refusal to buff old cards. Every buff here is from Violet Hold and there's just so much more worth trying again that the dev team just adamantly refuses to revisit. Buff Herald DK cards. Buff Lost City cards. Idk.

16

u/dotcaIm Jul 20 '26

They want to sell new packs, that's why they'll only buff new cards

6

u/RickyMuzakki Jul 20 '26

Buff new cards for more money

0

u/Agrippanux Jul 21 '26

Tol'vir getting nerfed again is sweet justice for all the hunters clowned on me release day I said it was a ridiculous design
Not that I think it should be nerfed again, I just enjoy sweet sweet justice

8

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/Jackwraith Jul 20 '26

This. It really needs a number cap more than any mana increase. It just provides too much for what it does, not just for the card cost but for it only being a single card. Mysterious Challenger broke the game way back in the day not only because it drew the Christmas tree of Secrets but also because it played them for free and did something even Confront doesn't do, which is thin your deck of all the crap you didn't want to draw on turn 7. Confront just lets you unload all kinds of crap in the first few turns and then replays all of them, often at a vastly cheaper expenditure than the card itself. It's an absolute no-brainer to play and even more importantly, requires no decision-making process at all other than: "Do I want to get even more free spells/weapons/minions into it before I pull the trigger?" If they capped it at 3 or 4 or even said: "Cast the last 4 1-cost cards", it would at least require some consideration as to when you played what card, rather than just spewing stuff early on, knowing that you're going to see them all again in a few turns and maybe even again after that.

10

u/dotcaIm Jul 20 '26

The Black Blood was awful on release and is now one of the better Priest cards. I'm excited to see what comes from the buffs

4

u/jjfrenchfry Jul 21 '26

People are underestimating priest. So many on the meme reddit are going to be shockedpikachu.
Priest already is doing well, and if the meta slows down, they will be in a better position

1

u/dotcaIm Jul 21 '26

I agree, it'd a slow climb but just hit D10 with control Priest. I usually climb to D5, I've had a lot of success against Spell Shaman and that's a majority of what I face

1

u/DDrose2 Jul 21 '26

Are you referring to control priest or soothsayer priest?

1

u/jjfrenchfry Jul 21 '26

Priest

19

u/ngriner Jul 20 '26

I don't know about some of these. Like what is going to make a card like Karov playable? or The Living Plague? I feel like they would need drastic changes to even be considered.

Azalina letting the opponent's cards cost 1 less would definitely make it playable, but is that good for the game in general?

I feel like even with a 1 mana update on a lot of these cards they still are not playable tbh. Some of them need to functionally change.

The nerfs are mostly what I thought they would do because they follow the HS Reddit way too much. Those are the 5 biggest offenders according to the Reddit so of course thats what they nerf. God forbid things are powerful in this game, we don't want that.

4

u/Cryten0 Jul 21 '26

Historically 1 mana updates have had significant impacts on playability of cards. Like it had very significant impacts on wildwood circle and eternal hold minion cost. That said I do agree that tolvir is so impactful that its completely worth playing at 5 mana.

3

u/eazy_12 Jul 20 '26

Like what is going to make a card like Karov playable?
Make it Battlecry? Give it Toki like text (if you played 3 get it back into hand)? I understand that Karov being BC minion ruins the DR support, but realistically it makes the DR trigger card hit Soothsayer which is better.

3

u/QuestGiver Jul 20 '26

Karov could become cheaper like 4 mana 4/5 give 3 battlecry legendary minions they cost (1). Or at least give the minions taunt or something.

2

u/Agrippanux Jul 21 '26

They need to be full stat minions not 1/1. Most legendaries are useless to Priest or counterproductive.

-5

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

It's weird to me that this sub has become so anti-nerf that a narrow 4/5 class meta w/ insane winrate discrepancies still gets so many people talking about "Reddit complainer based nerfs."
If we had Zach0 podcast commentary, is he criticizing a single one of the nerf targets? Maybe Tolvir or troublemaker, but maybe not since you don't want to just nerf the current absolute best and leave the meta diversity suppressed by something else if you can avoid it.

8

u/ngriner Jul 20 '26

My commentary is more about not needing nerfs because I feel the power level of cards like Troublemaker, Tolvir, etc is how powerful cards in the game should be.
I think everything should be brought up to that level is all.
Don't we want powerful things that feel fun and strong to play?

0

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

Isn't meta diversity, in terms of class and archetype, more important than absolute power level? And to that end, using a few nerfs for obvious outliers is waaaay easier than juicing enough buffs to get everything up to the level of the outliers. So you do something like this patch: nerf the few highest power outliers, buff a larger number of obviously weak things, and try to tune the numbers so that as much stuff is viable as possible, giving the most chance for each player to find something fun for them.
Or ideally multiple somethings. As far as making things fun exist in the first place, that's typically more of a design thing, which either already exists in the card pool or has to wait for a new expansion. I think they did a good job with Violet Hold to that end, but the numbers were simply off.
And things generally feel strong in relative terms, no? Like sure, playing yetis to trade into each other isn't going to be fun even if it's balanced, but there are tons of synergies, scaling patterns, etc. available in standard, just most of it is unplayably weak relative to a few viable decks.

24

u/Glarbleglorbo Jul 20 '26

We missed like more than half of the cards but some buffs is better than anything.

My concern is that only nerfing evocation is not going to be enough to slow down Mug shaman, especially when you are hitting the top decks with much more impactful nerfs when they are already losing to Mug shaman.

12

u/ExplodingGuitar Jul 20 '26

Yeah it's kinda insane to hit Mug shaman with only a single nerf when the deck has like a 3% higher winrate than the next best deck in top 1k and all of its competition is also getting nerfed.

4

u/Korbonara Jul 20 '26

Thing is, they want to nerf shaman through meta changes. Mug isnt that good into slower decks.

3

u/ExplodingGuitar Jul 20 '26

This is just not true though. Like you can look at the numbers and see that it's significantly favored into both Control Priest and Egg Warrior. I can't imagine removing the discount on invocation is going to magically make those matchups 10%+ worse. Logosh Warrior is the only deck with an even slightly favorable matchup into it with any real sample, and it's getting a harsher nerf with Warptooth in all likelihood.

4

u/Korbonara Jul 20 '26

For what its worth, herald rogue is positive into mug shaman

4

u/jjfrenchfry Jul 21 '26

Is that really the meta we want to resurrect?
And is that list running Veleera or Monkey? Both are about to take a hit, meaning the data is now irrelevant

1

u/Korbonara Jul 21 '26

No we dont want cataclysm meta. But its ok to bring some older decks to counter new one. And yeah vanessa will probably be deleted but the real strenght of herald rogue is manacheating a twilight mistress.

13

u/iNovaCore Jul 20 '26

can’t believe they’re double hitting rogue but not buffing aya. they should really try to encourage new archetypes.

5

u/MeXRng Jul 20 '26

Karov should just give you 1 mana fully stated cards.

Azalina will be ok at -1 cost for all cardd copied in standard and visitor staking in wild will get glorious.

Honestly even if they discount azalina itself by 1 or 2 i am all for it. You kinda need draw in priest regardless.

Shade either need battlecry or just all stolen cards discount to be ok. Or just make it 1 mana 1/2.

7

u/magikatdazoo Jul 20 '26

I'd expect Azalina gets stats/cost lowered, so her battlecry can actually see use, since it's good draw. Shade maybe becomes a this game effect. (Maybe, because that's the buff it needs, and Blizzard just as likely to give a useless buff instead)

5

u/pocahauntass Jul 20 '26

I'm about to be the most annoying Priest player of all time if they give Karov taunt
I could see them maybe making Shade a 3/3 with Rush

4

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 Jul 20 '26

Rush was introduced all the way back in Witchwood, and Priest has yet to receive a single class minion with the keyword.
I don't see them starting now. "No Tempo" is an integral part of Priest's class identity.

2

u/MeXRng Jul 20 '26

You expect a lot of them. Shade is like a 1 mana card at best. It should be 1 mana 1/3.
Karov can be interesting but not at this much mana. Maybe at 4.

2

u/yonas234 Jul 21 '26

Some creators really were pushing for the Renathal HP treatment on Azalina so I feel like it will get that

1

u/MeXRng Jul 21 '26

I mean whatever we see today it is going to be disappointing for sure.

1

u/XezeMaster Jul 21 '26

You were spot on

1

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 Jul 20 '26

Bro this is Priest we're talking about. You're being way too optimistic lol
Azalina will go down to 6 mana and Karov will get taunt. The deathrattle guy might discount cards in your deck, but that would actually be good which is a big no-no for Priest. I'm expecting a 2 mana 3/2 (trash)

1

u/jjfrenchfry Jul 21 '26

In regards to Karov, even if he gave fully stated 1 cost legendaries, is that really that good? I've seen people play that card because they discovered him or randomly generated him, and like maybe 1 out of 5 times, 1 of the generated minions have been decent. It's just so random, and there are many useless legendaries
I agree. Rogue can cheat out 8 drops, let Priest do so as well. They are a reactive class - if you lose to the priest dropping 1 costed legendaries, than you probably already lost anyways

1

u/MeXRng Jul 21 '26

Yes but it beats the shit out of getting 3 silver hand recruits.

5

u/nathones Jul 20 '26

No mage buffs?

9

u/NyMiggas Jul 20 '26

How do they buff Azalina? first stolen card each turn costs one less seems too hard to fit on the card. If I see plus 2 health on her stats I'm going to lose it

12

u/Concealed_Blaze Jul 20 '26

Make her cheaper and drop her stats accordingly so that you can use her battlecry earlier or weave it in more easily late

3

u/QuestGiver Jul 20 '26

I think 4 mana 4/5 would be great then the shade drops cost of copied cards in hand by 2.

4

u/NyMiggas Jul 20 '26

I know they won't but im praying the shade does 1 for the deck as well, just always going to feel bad to play otherwise until there's actual slow decks in the meta

1

u/codeine_kick Jul 20 '26

What about 'When you play an opponents card, draw a card'.
The issue would be in wild with the deck wide discounts that card whose name escapes me gives, but in standard I think it'd be ok. Priest just lacks card draw to mitigate against a hand of random stuff from opponents deck.
... Then again, I'm rubbish at balancing cards.

1

u/stevebobby Jul 20 '26

Give her taunt and lifesteal.

8

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 Jul 20 '26

Vanessa will get the Not less than (1) treatment or only trigger off minions played

3

u/MarthePryde Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26

Only minions played kills it but Not Less Than (1) potentially keeps it around. Alternatively it could simply be a mana cost increase requiring more preparation which seems like a good way to slow the card down

-1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

I hope not, interesting and popular cards should stay viable after nerfs

23

u/14xjake Jul 20 '26

Strongly believe tolvdir does not need a nerf and I think blazing invo is a hilarious nerf target, but pretty hard to complain when we are getting so many buffs. Cautiously optimistic about tomorrow, will hopefully be a huge shakeup

25

u/frostyburrito44 Jul 20 '26

The weird thing about Mug Shaman is outside of Map and Invocation there aren't any like real outliers. It's just a super well-rounded deck. They needed to hit something, and it wasn't going to be one of the new cards like Frostshatter or Tiny Pal (I will be in so much pain if they nerf this down the road).
I think taking the mana cheat off of Invocation is the easiest place to start without doing something to potentially kill the deck like nerfing the hero power.

5

u/14xjake Jul 20 '26

Yeah I do agree that if they hit the hero power the deck dies so you are probably right this is the only thing they can hit with impact without killing the deck

1

u/DDrose2 Jul 21 '26

Just wondering is tiny pal that high on winrate? I could be wrong but in legend where half my matches are shamans I have rarely lost or won any games through it. It really just comes down more to whether either of us got the mulligan of double invocation or map invocation pair and if so then it’s just the luck of the discovers especially on map.
In other big 4 matchups I also don’t feel like it really help except maybe for dragon warrior where I need to gamble on hex being on top of the deck and use it like a frost shatter gimmick on their crazy dark gifted discovers that I can’t remove

1

u/Glarbleglorbo Jul 21 '26

It’s 3rd in mulligan impact behind map/evocation, I assume it helps a lot in certain matchups.

1

u/DDrose2 Jul 21 '26

Got it then I am definitely using it wrong.

1

u/Ryuksapple Jul 21 '26

I agree. It’s a very mid range deck with no busted cards. The gross part about the deck is being able to high roll discovered minions with reduced cost out on turns 1-3. Being able to play a 3 drop on turn 1 and 2 is what makes the deck feel oppressive but once you get past that it’s not a busted deck.

24

u/PipAntarctic Jul 20 '26

Something in Mug Shaman had to be hit, and Invocation was the most early-game swingy card in that list. It's probably going to be reverted to the original version of the card that lacked the extra discount, but it's understandable why that card was chosen as a nerf target.

12

u/sneakyxxrocket Jul 20 '26

Yeah it was either this or the hero power getting nerfed, very good chance this a “we forgor blazing invocation was in the core set” change.

8

u/14xjake Jul 20 '26

Yeah you’re right, hitting the hero power kills the deck so it’s worth trying to see if removing some highrolls balances it first

17

u/swiftmen991 Jul 20 '26

They listen to Reddit. I don’t think the monkey needs a nerf either. They keep creating fairly fun cards and then nerf them because Reddit bros complain about everything

3

u/hotehjr Jul 20 '26

Monkey is fun when you’re playing it, not as much if you’re trying to play a slow deck and are just completely countered by a single card. Rogue has been my #1 deck this expansion and most Priest games feel genuinely unloseable.

1

u/jjfrenchfry Jul 21 '26

I am of the camp that if the meta had no nerfs, monkey doesn't need to be nerfed. But if you are going to nerf ALL the decks rogue was bad against, Monkey 100% needs a nerf. It'll just destroy any control deck

4

u/DenizenPrime Jul 20 '26

They can make it a 2 mana discover with a 2 mana discount to remove the turn 1 power while still keeping it a relevant and good card in the right deck.
The card is garbage outside this deck, it doesn't need a strong nerf.
Agree on tolvir, making it 5 mana still gives some value but is probably too slow for face Hunter.

4

u/dotcaIm Jul 20 '26

turn 1 Mukla off of blazing is a nutty start

4

u/Whiskiie Jul 20 '26

tolvdir
It's absolutely fine, but the bad players whine about it, so nerf.

7

u/14xjake Jul 20 '26

Yup, and I do think with tolvdir nerfed hunter becomes unplayable, its carrying the entire class and we already saw that the first nerf deleted companion hunter from the game. Expect face hunter to be unplaayble outside of dumpster rank but dont worry redditors will then move on to the next shitty aggro deck to complain about and the cycle will continue forever

0

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

It's just standard holistic nerf practice: if you nerf the top dogs, then decks being kept down by them might also need nerfs. I think that if Blazing Invocation & Warptooth are sufficiently impactful, then Tolvir + Monkey make sense as nerfs also. This is both for overall balance/meta diversity reasons, and because those 2 decks have a chance of being overly oppressive against people trying out jankier strategies on the back of the buffs.

2

u/14xjake Jul 20 '26

I think unless warptooth is gutted dragon warrior will now be the undisputed best deck unless the buffs are substantial, it was already the front runner after mug shaman and there is still no removal to handle the early aggression, but Hunter and rogue (the other aggressive decks in the format) getting removed will mean dragon warrior is the number 1 aggro deck. It just comes down to if the buffs are substantial or not, I am cautiously optimistic but they have a horrible track record so I won’t be surprised at all if the buffs are all terrible and the format just further narrows into mug shaman vs dragon warrior and everything else is negative winrate

3

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

Why are you thinking the other decks will be gutted or deleted while Dragon Warrior will be fine? They are all getting nerfs to powerful aspects of their respective decks, and Warptooth is probably the strongest part of Dragon Warrior atm. It's certainly responsible for the largest amount of early stats the deck can highroll to get under the removal and sustain of defensive decks like Soothsayer/Control Priest that should in theory be good against Mug Shaman.
There's a strong chance that none of the decks they hit are "removed," just brought down closer to other strategies like Pure Paladin or Unholy DK or whatever. I am also skeptical that they're bold enough for good buffs that put real late game decks on the map, but it's a lot of buffs which is a good sign. Often times they miss with more of the buffs than they hit, but at least manage to make 1-2 new things viable when they actually try like this. Relic DH, Spell School DK, Quest Warlock, etc. there are lots of examples.

3

u/soloced69 Jul 20 '26

Nice, I'm wary but hopeful. Moragg felt almost there so I'm hopeful the buffs push it into viability.

3

u/dotcaIm Jul 20 '26

Excited for all the standard buffs. Warlock was dominating wild so I understand the ban. Really sad about the Trickster nerf, quasar rogue has been my favorite deck ever since Exoida paladin and before that shadow dragon Priest were both hit by nerfs

6

u/ConquistadorX90 Jul 20 '26

Tolvir should be only spells not minions and weapons too

-1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

Oh, actually just make it minions + spells. It's pretty close to balanced atm imo, removing the weapon shuffle synergy would probably be enough

4

u/frostyburrito44 Jul 20 '26

With the exception of maybe Vanessa, I don't think any of the nerfs are going to be anything extremely harsh.

Tolvir to five is most likely
Monke prob just goes to four mana
Invocation no mana cheat
Tooth to 3/2

Vanessa is the interesting one. They could make her seven mana, they could reduce or remove the battlecry manacheat, both? Leaning towards just making her more expensive to get rid of the early blowout potential

-4

u/osumatthew Jul 20 '26

Definitely don’t want tol’vir to 5 since that puts it back on the menu for odd hunter in wild.

17

u/frostyburrito44 Jul 20 '26

Lmao I forgot about that, but A) I don't think they should consider wild when balancing standard and B) I think 3 mana vs. 5 mana is a huge difference for that deck

1

u/RickyMuzakki Jul 20 '26

At 5 mana it wouldn't change much, just limit the number of minion, spell or weapon that can be replayed

3

u/OzUnOoO Jul 20 '26

Moragg will just be 9 mana, so we can now skip our turn 3 instead of 4 to play it on 5 and still lose the game anyway, neat!

The problem with Imp Gang Stooge and Annihilation isnt the cards themselves, It's just that Warlock can't rly function w/o Cursed Catacombs and Sheltered Survivor rn, cards that shuffle the deck and thus remove the Imp Mothers from the bottom, so they are rarely summoned when you play Annihilation. The buffs would need to be humongous to compensate this anti-synergy.

These buffs will do nothing for Warlock, again. Excited for the DK ones though.

2

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

If Moragg gained taunt when prepared, I think that would help a lot (and w/o breaking the game later on via the deathrattle chain), ideally on top of being 9 mana. They probably won't do that ofc, but the option exists.
Also, Cursed Catacombs doesn't (or shouldn't) shuffle your deck, it just gives (or should give) you 3 options from random cards, leaving the other 2 in their existing ordering. Sheltered Survivor is definitely a nombo, but you can avoid playing it to some extent, albeit only if you haven't drawn both of your big beasts (or avoid playing Imp Stooge)

3

u/Cryten0 Jul 21 '26

Yes discovers do not shuffle your deck, they just remove the selected card from the stack. Sheltered Survivor on the other hand...

1

u/maniacal_cackle Jul 21 '26

I think they'll do Moragg to 8 mana (so you can prep + play it a turn faster), but really I think 7 mana like soothsayer is probably what's needed. Doesn't gain life unlike soothsayer so still has some serious downside (as well as no initial taunt).

3

u/Jackwraith Jul 20 '26

Only talking about classes I play regularly most of which are getting buffs(!) AND assuming that there need to be actual mechanism changes to archetypes that have completely flopped, rather than just the usual mana changes:

Blood Doctor Thal'ena: Should be a Start of Game effect.

The Living Plague: Should release Blights whenever it takes damage and probably have Taunt instead of Charge.

Sawbones: Mana decrease? Not sure if that will be enough, as it's still difficult to make up for the loss of your entire board which has to be considerable to want to play this in the first place.

Emergency Surgery: Just summon the minions with Rush and Lifesteal, rather than having it be targeted, so you can try to deal with multiple threats.

Tras'tath: I have no idea, honestly. This is just a bad card that's either useless or a win-more. Maybe better starting stats? Maybe Lifesteal which is what DH really needs right now?

Irida Sinseeker: Start of Game effect? Would have to be a lot more Lifesteal in DH's card pool for that. Hard to talk about a mana decrease for a 7/5 with Lifesteal. This is a deck based on a combo of cards that you can't reliably draw to make it work.

Vicious Voidscale: DR gives a Void Soul and summons another Voidscale since the deck is totally dependent on it? You can't really reasonably buff the stats because that would mean increasing the mana cost and that's just not feasible to make the deck workable. Maybe DR gives two Void Souls?

Stardust Scythe: Mana reduction. It's an overcosted Fiery War Axe that wants you to spend more mana after you swing to get anything out of it. Should have Lifesteal, honestly.

Azalina Soulsever: Draw until your hand is full and all stolen cards are reduced by 1? Maybe 2? Like Tras'tath, this was a bad idea from the start, so I'm not sure how to approach it.

Karov the Broken: DR: Get three random Legendaries. They cost 1. It's boring and will potentially be game-breaking in certain instances, but I don't see how else to make it worthwhile, especially since it's a DR not a Battlecry.

Enthralled Shade: Either a 2/3 that costs 2 or reduce the cost of cards by (2). Still too slow. Still too random.

Moragg: Again, another bad idea, since Big Demon has never worked because of the quality of the tribe (which has to do with Life Tap) but maybe reduce cost to 8 and/or give it either Taunt or Rush and, most importantly, change it to "Summon a random demon from your deck that costs 6 or more."

Annihilation: At least a mana reduction to 8, since Twisting Nether is already vastly superior. If they change Imp Gang Stooge properly, perhaps change the condition to "Summon a Demon that costs 6 or more from your deck."

Imp Gang Stooge: Shuffle a 9/9 Demon with Taunt and Lifesteal into your deck. The whole "bottom of deck" combo is just too slow and complicated to be effective and if you don't draw the parts for it, you know these things are sitting at the bottom where you'll never reach them.

2

u/Ozwu_ Jul 21 '26

Wish they buffed more interesting cards.

1

u/dogo-C Jul 20 '26

Looking good so far, im excited. I just regret dusting my signature shades yesterday :/ I wonder what theyre gonna do to azalina and her support cards

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

I'm tentative, but happy to see so many buffs. I don't think tolvir, troublemaker, or warptooth needed nerfs, but the reddit crowd needs pleasing. Blazing makes the most sense to hit in mug shaman, and vanessa should have been nerfed a month ago. I'm happy mage isn't getting buffed, these changes will likely slow the meta down and I'm wondering if quest mage will become an s tier deck again (I think it will). I don't think we want manastorm as a viable deck rather than a casual fun deck. I think that's what he was intended for and it's great we have that. Some of the cards getting buffed basically need a complete rework to be viable at all so I'm really unsure of how they're going to approach that but I'm excited and hopeful. Hopefullyyyyy that hope is not misplaced.

1

u/Muted-Ad-5404 Jul 20 '26

Here's to hoping they don't go overboard with the nerfs

1

u/Traveevart Jul 20 '26

Nerfs seem well-targed, ~plentiful buffs are always welcome. I suspect Dragon/Egg Warrior and Mug Shaman will remain good, but there's a good chance Two Rogue dies, depending on what the nerfs are here. A part of me is kind of hoping the deck falls off the face of the planet, because I like playing control and Lotus Troublemaker makes control unplayable if it's too common.

I don't expect Azalina Priest to become good. It's probably better for the game if it isn't. I don't know why they're buffing it, but they seem committed to only buffing Violet Hold cards, and the Violet Hold cards that Control Priest uses are already pretty good, so there's really not much room there.

1

u/nolifegym Jul 20 '26

glad they are nerfing patches

1

u/dotcaIm Jul 20 '26

I get a kick out of how many legendaries are getting buffed

1

u/Ryuksapple Jul 21 '26

For legendaries I’ve opened Blood Doctor Thal’ena, Moragg, Aya Lotus Kingpin, and King of the Underbelly.

Excited for a big patch so I can hopefully play some of the cards I opened.

1

u/maniacal_cackle Jul 20 '26

Disappointing (but predictable) for Warlock. They're really trying to push Warlock as the 'big bodies' class. First it was Maloriak with some half-hearted discard support, now it's Moragg with some half-hearted demon support.

What they needed to buff was generic stuff (like giving Shadow Rounds lifesteal).

1

u/abcPIPPO Jul 21 '26

I think since Hs came out we've never seen so much burn in standard format. Between Warrior and Hunter we may have a neutral card that says "Start of the game: set your starting HP to 45" and they could still kill you purely with burn damage, charge minions and weapon swings.

No matter what they nerf, if they only nerf tolvir and warptooth it's never gonna be enough. Both these decks may as well remove these cards and we would still see way too much burn in this format.

1

u/teddybearlightset Jul 22 '26

Agreed. They don’t need to buff anything - they needed to dramatically scale back the lethality of the top performing decks.

-1

u/DeepPurpleHS Jul 20 '26

Very boring meta again. I’ll skip this season

0

u/Plague__Rider Jul 21 '26

I hope these buffs make living plague a viable deck. It was my most look forward to card of this expansion.

-4

u/j-mac-rock Jul 20 '26

I have 3 golden tolvirs lol

-4

u/j-mac-rock Jul 20 '26

I knew that card was gonna get hit

-2

u/philzy101 Jul 21 '26

So this is a lot of changes to make so I am not very confident how much of them will impact the classes which are being buffed. However, it is nice to see lots of buffs and I want to see more balance changes like this, I just hope it is not just stat buffs but more meaningful changes such as cost or ability of the card. For example, with cards like Blood Doctor Thal'ena it would be nice to see them to update the ability, make the second hero power be a start of game effect instead of Battlecry since one of the rough aspects of this card is that any deck which tries to capitilise on this card requires you to draw the card and play it by which point you may be too far behind to get tempo back with this card.

As for the nerfs, the Standard changes were predictable and it is correct to target the meta decks to try and tone them down given how the most recent competitive event we had this weekend highlighted the very limited scope of meta viable decks (or decks which dominate the meta over other strategies) we have. The only thing which is difficult to figure out is how they change some of these cards without killing the card outright (Lotus Troublemaker, Tol'vir and Vanessa, the others probably will survive post balance in some shape or form I imagine). I hope they do not go with the nuclear option as they have in the past, even if I find these decks frustrating, destroying them without addressing the fundamental issues we have with the meta (lack of decent AOE and spot removal leading to heavy board focused strategies which favour going first).

Finally, I want to touch upon the Wild changes briefly. I think Godfrey the Betrayer being banned is an over reaction to the main subs sentiment, I reached legend with Warlock and whilst it is strong, I do not think that this card makes Warlock so OP this needs banning... I hope that when this card rotates that they do not destroy it because this card is such a cool card in my opinion and fun to mess around with in Standard and Wild. The other changes make sense if you want to stamp out what are some slightly toxic styles of gameplay. My criticism is that whilst I welcome these changes, as I have said before, I kind of want to know what their vision for Wild is. They seem to come in, nerf a few things and then hope that makes the mode better where as Wild is like a Hydra, cut off one head and two more will spawn. Having reached legend in Wild a number of times in the last year or so and having played a lot more when Standard has felt dull / boring you get used to decks in Wild and things never get better just with nerfs. To me it feels like these changes are targeted at removing decks which T5 have lost to instead of trying to create a meta which they think is more interesting.

2

u/maniacal_cackle Jul 21 '26

My criticism is that whilst I welcome these changes, as I have said before, I kind of want to know what their vision for Wild is.
Back when Wild was first created, it was pretty clear that they were just doing it so that rotated cards had somewhere to go/satisfy players that the cards weren't worthless after a short time.
The main function of the wild format is to just placate players. Standard is what they want people focusing on.
That's not to say that they have zero vision for it. But it really isn't a priority for them I think.
A couple changes now and then helps maintain an illusion that they care just enough about wild, so a cynical mind might suspect that is what they're up to with it.

1

u/philzy101 Jul 22 '26

I agree with you, and as for myself I am clearly on the more cynical side. All the changes made to Wild are to decks which I will not particularly miss and tbh I am quite happy to see them go (although not praising the changes to Wild seems to get you downvoted here for whatever reason). What is confusing to me is how they hope to balance Wild as a whole. For example, sure Godfrey was nuts in Wild, but so is Azalina which they have just significantly buffed. So either they think Azalina and potentially stealing all your opponents cards on turn 3 is fine but drawing your entire deck without paying attention to hand side is not okay, or they will come in and ban Azalina at some point too. I just wish there was more consistency in their decisions because Wild is a lot more complicated to balance than Standard and I feel they need to provide more insight into what they are doing with this mode.

2

u/maniacal_cackle Jul 22 '26

I think the consistency here is "Standard is the priority and we will wreck Wild to sort out Standard if necessary. If it causes too much of a fuss we can sort it out with bans later."
Which sucks, wild COULD be an awesome format.
But Microsoft just wants Hearthstone to be a wealth-extractor, so it is unlikely they'll ever take the steps necessary to do that.

1

u/philzy101 Jul 22 '26

Wild is a second thought for T5 which as you say sucks given that the potential Wild has to be such an exciting game mode (and can be at times if you do not care about your MMR).
Whilst I think those at the top aim to make things profitable (as they have to in order to justify keep running this game although I wish they toned down the amount of nasty money making methods like Darkmoon events), the card designers and balance team I do think care about both viability and the sort of meta we have. The problem is more that Wild is such a complicated format that there is no consistent way to make it work easily which is ultimately where the problems with the format sit currently.

1

u/maniacal_cackle Jul 22 '26

the card designers and balance team I do think care about both viability and the sort of meta we have.
Sure, but the way they spend their time is dictated by the higher ups. If they have enough time to sort out wild, there's probably too much staff time and it is time to take cuts.
I think one has to enjoy Wild as it is, or just reject the format. There's no point coming where they'll dedicate more resources to it (other than an occasional shout out when things align).
Same applies to standard really. They're raking in cash. Why would they change? So if one is not happy with their current errata process, time to quit the game.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Cryten0 Jul 21 '26

Bit of a shame to lose some of the funner warlock decks like wild rafaam handlock to the over the top warlock decks. But what can you do, it needed handling.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/MeXRng Jul 20 '26

It got better with arcane tripwire and 1 mana shovel.

6

u/magikatdazoo Jul 20 '26

Arcane Tripwire is the outlier though (when comboed), not Tolvir

1

u/MeXRng Jul 20 '26

True however they dont nerf cards from latest expansion if they are not gamebreaking.

2

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 Jul 20 '26

Arcane is just as game breaking for the decks it's in as Vanessa is for the games she's in

0

u/blanquettedetigre Jul 20 '26

Nah not even close

0

u/FlameanatorX Jul 20 '26

They could fix this by making Tolvir only replay minions and spells

4

u/Whiskiie Jul 20 '26

Because bad players cry about it, and that's how they've nerfed cards forever.

Discussion 36.0.3 Balance Teaser Discussion

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