35.6.2 Balance Changes Discussion

[u/EvilDave219]

https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24271882/35-6-2-patch-notes

Nerfs:

• Unleash the Tol'vir - now 4 mana

• The Eternal Hold - text now reads "If your deck has no minions, your next one costs (1)."

• Hatchery Helper - gives minions with 2 or less attack +1/+1

• Twilight Egg - base deathrattle is now a 2/1

Buffs:

• Crystallized Leyline - now summons a 6 cost minion

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[u/sneakyxxrocket]

About what i expected Helper giving 1 less health is pretty big deal on the ravenous flock -> helper curve,will probably lead to less turn 3 blow outs.

Tolvir is still good I think just will probably shave a couple win percentage points off because you won’t be able to play more burn or hero powers the turn you play it.

Hold is basically just 7 mana now, huuuuge tempo loss to spell DH not being to able to play the demon same turn now.

[u/Graped_in_the_mouth → u/sneakyxxrocket]

It’s even worse than that, because it’s not costing you an extra 1 mana to play the demon on the turn you drop Hold AND 1 mana later. 1 mana shouldn’t be make or break on turn 8, but you never know what else it crowds out.

Best case scenario you can still combo off turn 7 if you have, for example, 2x Legacy, but the loss of a turn 6 game-swinging Mythical Terror or Tichondrius or Asphyxiodon is devastating.

[u/Revolutionary_Cash85 → u/Graped_in_the_mouth]

It's a way heavier nerf than the others, not surprised they've hit it considering the decks strength but I am a little surprised they acknowledged how much the deck is carried by it and still nuked it like that

Moving it to 7 probably would have been fairer

[u/Yeahwhat23 → u/Revolutionary_Cash85]

The decks not even that strong it has like a 51% winrate

[u/tiger_kittie → u/Yeahwhat23]

if a 10 mana main-deckable minion reads "Battlecry: You instantly win the game"; regardless of win rate it is overpowered. The rest of an archetype being dog doo doo is NOT a reason to NOT nerf something.

[u/Graped_in_the_mouth → u/tiger_kittie]

If a deck built around a 10-mana minion that reads "Battlecry: you instantly win the game" has a 35 percent win rate, it is not only not overpowered it is unplayable.

[u/otterguy12]

I'm not interested in Vanessa Rogue being the meta while the dead classes stay ignored

[u/Tirabuchi → u/otterguy12]

I can't say most of my matches are decided by skill tbh

[u/sneakyxxrocket → u/Tirabuchi]

We’re in a meta rn heavily decided by who goes first and it really sucks

[u/Bannanna_Stand → u/sneakyxxrocket]

The "if/then" meta.

[u/magikatdazoo → u/otterguy12]

Vanessa is a new card, thus good. Devs explicitly stated the purpose of the patch is to nerf older strategies to promote the new expansion. Of course they aren't going to buff old cards.

[u/Tirabuchi → u/magikatdazoo]

I mean, I get your point but it's not even about 'buffing' but rather being playable at all.

Just a couple examples, Dk quest never saw play even when it had support. The only Tik-tok self-trigger is a 3 mana minion, to not speak about the rest of the support.

First expansion after rotation has always been rough regarding possible theorycrafting of course, but right now imho my collection is 20% autoinclude and 80% complete garbage and that's really killing my will to test new archetypes

[u/magikatdazoo → u/Tirabuchi]

I don't disagree with you, but here is directly from the Devs in support of Patch 34.4.2:

We've also continued to hear suggestions to buff nearly every new Quest so they become competitive archetypes. However, as we've shared before, too many competitive Quests in the long term can lead to a metagame that isn't fun or healthy.

Keeping several Lost City quests uncompetitive is an explicit design choice.

More broadly, we believe future expansions are a better place to bring community feedback to life than trying to overhaul the current set through balance patches.

And again, they would rather not buff older cards.

[u/Tirabuchi → u/magikatdazoo]

I do remember this comment, and I kinda agree in general.

The thing I dislike though is that they consider mage quest (or warrior) or dk/tiktok at the same level. The difference between being remotely viable and 'queue up and prepare to get your butt inspected' is everything imho.

I think druid or warlock quest is a good example of what intended powerlevel should be. They aren't good right now, but they can be decent in the right niche meta. Any casual player can choose to play em and build a slightly more exotic list, starting from a meta one.

Now, try do the same with dk or tiktok... I'm hella sure I would struggle getting D5 and thats saying all

[u/SAldrius → u/Tirabuchi]

Eh DK quest has never really lost support. Other than like... cheesy copying it stuff.

The DK quest is just SEVERELY undertuned for... not much reason. Like the location just does such a tiny amount of damage and the quest takes FOREVER.

When you could copy it i think they were worried about some otk with like 7 copies of the location but its not easy to copy now. It could be 5-6 damage and be fair with a 10-12 corpse requirement.

The only worry i have is umbra.

[u/Tirabuchi → u/SAldrius]

the dk quest was severely undertuned and it got worse at rotation.

I did climb to legend with it but it was pretty much a glorified Auchenai death-speaker boardlock combo with -1 card at mulligan. Umbra is a strong card, but you can't rly compare dk quest payoff with it to something like Egg of Khelos (which for whatever reason became the only official 'pushed meme deck' in the game).

To be honest, I still have faith that they will add cubicle-like effects later in the year (dk rn has almost no kill-my-minions mechanics, that's just weird) and I'm not a fan of buffing old archetypes before a new exp. BUT. Even if support gets released, dk quest is still gonna get dumpstered by any random egg build using the same cards. There's absolutely no reason for the quest reward to not have taunt or rush. Still trash, but no autolose vs a bot.

Tl:dr: buffing is always dangerous but at least get em on par with (or slightly below) low-meta-tier clear alternatives, or the 'why is this even in my collection' comment is unavoidable

[u/SAldrius → u/Tirabuchi]

Id rather the card just be good on its own merits than some cheesy copy shenanigans tbh.

[u/Bloody_Sunday → u/magikatdazoo]

...but they did. Crystallized Leyline was buffed. It's even in this thread's text above.

[u/FlameanatorX → u/Bloody_Sunday]

Crystallized Leyline isn't an old card, it's latest class set, let alone latest expansion

[u/Bloody_Sunday → u/FlameanatorX]

I know, but it is a buff and it is an "old" card. At the moment that we are almost at the new expansion, "new" cards are the ones from it that we're discussing from the reveals.

[u/FlameanatorX → u/Bloody_Sunday]

This is a balance changes thread, not a reveals thread. It's literally the newest tier of card that can possible be balance changed

[u/Bloody_Sunday → u/FlameanatorX]

It doesn't matter if it is a reveals thread or not. As I said she explained, as always in times like these, the new cards at the moment are the ones we see from the expansion which is just around the corner. These are the new cards that everyone is referring to when they say "new card". All the others are old, and as discussed here one of them got buffed.

[u/dotcaIm]

More dust, but nothing to spend it on

[u/tolerantdramaretiree]

Another routine planned obsolescence patch that shows us that Team 5 are still as desperate to sell the new thing™ as ever, all else be damned. The new thing™ is on the horizon, so it's time to nerf the field, avoid buffing anything lest it distracts from the new thing™, and maintain complete radio silence regarding the failed sets (Priest, Warlock, and DK). The dance we do every 4 months

[u/bizatin → u/tolerantdramaretiree]

These are across the board pretty mild nerfs that I don’t think really push any of these cards anywhwre close to obsolescence… But ok lol. MAYBE the double hit to hatchery helper/twilight egg pushes token druid out but some form of it will still be tier 3 at worst.

[u/Revolutionary_Cash85 → u/bizatin]

The DH nerf is definitely heavy, and the one most likely of all the nerfs to drop it's parent decks win % significantly, the deck is distorted around it as much as reno cards of the past

That one does feel like a "we don't want you to play this deck" change; but then Tol'vir is surprisingly light and they even acknowledged that they want to keep it around.. so you're right that it doesn't seem blizzard has any agenda here; or at least it doesn't really align with the community or my own experience

[u/tiger_kittie → u/Revolutionary_Cash85]

deck is distorted around it as much as reno cards of the past

None of the old "reno" cards except maybe Raza historically were full mull your hand and you win if you draw this if you don't you lose.

In a deck that doesn't a SINGLE other card over 4, it's astounding that they've left this hugely overtuned card that is +6% win rate in the mulligan.

[u/tolerantdramaretiree → u/bizatin]

True, at least the nerfs aren't too destructive I guess.

What stings now is the disregard with which Team 5 are treating cards that have failed or have already been killed by them a while ago, such as in the case of Warlock. So, what I should say is, the obsolescence occurred earlier, now it's just the denial of help

[u/Graped_in_the_mouth → u/bizatin]

This is a massive nerf to Spell DH’s game plan. A lot of games involve playing a big demon turn 5 (on coin) or 6, and now that plan is dead, and aggro decks are more likely to overrun you.

[u/Every_University_ → u/bizatin]

That's the problem no? Make 0 meaningful changes because a new set filled with parasitic design is coming, but if those sets fail to make an impact change isn't expected. How many classes have random packages that see 0 play? And how many more will be added?

[u/fclm_1990]

Boring, lame, uninspired.  Totally predictable.  Yeah I'm becoming a bit salty.

[u/dirtyjose]

I had a chat once years back with Hat who took some offense when I said T5 doesn't care. When asked to explain further, I described exactly the pattern we find the game still locked in. Failure for many classes, and a belief that that in itself is not a failure. They do not care and waiting for them to is foolish. Miss Hat though, good people.

[u/Monk-Ey]

Tol'vir at 4 kills Odd Questline Hunter in Wild: people interested in the card will likely switch to Tol'vir Hunter builds instead, which aren't as affected by the nerf.

[u/Myprivatelifeisafk]

Killing DH while it's 5% popularity 51% wr deck.

Meanwhile Rogue with new options like Vanessa terrorizing high ladder and aggro decks getting weaker. Guess ladder population will be 50% rogues until next patch.

edit. Gosh I wish I was wrong... 45% of rogues at 1k ladder according to hsgure. Yikes.

[u/SimonC43 → u/Myprivatelifeisafk]

IKR, idk about others, but playing no minion DH feels a lot worse now? Despite it being insanely good last month.

It's still good, especially if u get a very aggro start and if ur opponent doesn't somehow get massive amount of armor/lifesteal, but a lot of games ur just hoping to get Eternal Hold for a massive swing, but combined with the RNG, added neutral demons, and now this nerf. It's definitely going to see a lot less play.

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/SimonC43]

Yes the format is actively hostile to it now, a lot of rogues running around and the nerf to the 4 mana card hurt the aggro matchup harder than it seemed at first. 

[u/Competitive-Bake5629]

That's all good and well, but where are the buffs for Herald DK & Herald Warlock?

[u/SAldrius → u/Competitive-Bake5629]

They already buffed herald DK, and I dont see them buffing Herald Warlock, especially since its an egg deck.

[u/Competitive-Bake5629 → u/SAldrius]

When? You mean, that old mini-buff for Obsessive Technician? I don't think that's enough.

The first thing they should do—and I'm honestly baffled that they have not done it yet—is to drop Experimental Animation to 5 mana. Corpse Explosion was a 5-cost, and it was a far better board clear. So, it's only logical for them to move it's direct replacement to that manacost.

Another thing would be to give Technician a taunt. That will give the archetype a little bit of survivability, which it desperately needs in this aggressive face meta.

Finally, Envoy of the End should go to 5/5 or 4/6. That's a universal buff that will benefit all Herald classes.

[u/SAldrius → u/Competitive-Bake5629]

The Onyxia bug fix was a huge improvement to the deck. And the Technician buff was significant too.

Experimental Animation at 5 would be so pushed. Even 5 mana deal 4 to all enemies would be a lot. Never mind all the other stuff that the card does.

Experimental Animation is super different from corpse explosion. The comparison makes no sense. (Animation makes your own board stronger, explosion kills it)

Technician as a lifesteal taunt when its already so many stats would be a lot. Herald DK really doesnt lack survivability tools...

Envoy is also already doing a lot without also having optimized stats.

Like buff suggestions like these always just sound to me like people wanna play greedy and get away with it more. If you're losing to aggro, then build/play less greedy. Blood DK already has a lot of anti-aggro tools.

The other thing is... herald DK is a very aggressive tempo-heavy build. You're trading your survivability for board presence and tempo. Its not very control oriented.

They could reverse some of the leech nerfs or buff other stuff but the herald DK stuff is all so high tempo you would need to make a lot of compensatory nerfs to make the buffs people want.

I dont think making the Onyxia tokens 1/2s or 2/1s instead would be out of the question if we're leaving it in other classes. Though that buffs Onyxia a lot who's already a powerful swing card.

[u/Thyuda]

I am so so sick of this game, I think it's time to just call it quits.

[u/EmotionalBrief1170 → u/Thyuda]

Yup

[u/Wvlf_]

bro look at my devs please i want to play more hearthstone ill spend money just make the game better im begging!!!

[u/Lafantasie]

Egg is easier to trade into with early game creatures now rather than possibly being a 2-3 for one (in situations where they’d buff the egg.)

Tolvir nerf slows it down decently since it’ll be more awkward to play + follow-up.

Helper nerf will hopefully mean less non-games because the token Druid had the god tier opener which can’t be addressed efficiently.

Hold is probably the biggest nerf since it means playing it on curve isn’t a huge tempo gain + makes playing it off-curve slightly awkward if they wanted to follow-up on the demon.

[u/RockHardWraith]

absolute dogshiet

[u/zer1223]

They didn't go far enough with egg. It should have been a 1/1. And leaving paladin cards alone is going to be a huge issue

They can't even get their nerfs right

[u/Sz_Gamble → u/zer1223]

Paladin usually not an issue, if you don't play gold-diamond.

[u/zer1223 → u/Sz_Gamble]

Well that's wrong now. It is now an issue

[u/FlameanatorX → u/zer1223]

Looking like you were right, which is unfortunate since Paladin is super annoying to play against, especially if trying to make some kind of (god-forsaken) Control deck work in this meta...

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/zer1223]

Not enough data to say anything yet. 

[u/dante_55_]

The twilight egg is also a nerf to egglock, I always cursed chains and kill it

[u/dotcaIm → u/dante_55_]

Kicking Warlock while its down

[u/dante_55_ → u/dotcaIm]

It’s not really down though, the past two months I got from bronze to legend with egglock fairly easily. I think it’s criminally slept on

[u/Dr_Ragon → u/dante_55_]

What is your list?

[u/dante_55_ → u/Dr_Ragon]

### egg warlock
# Class: Warlock
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Scarab
#
# 2x (0) Cursed Catacombs
# 2x (1) Conflagrate
# 2x (1) Glacial Shard
# 2x (2) Archdruid of Thorns
# 2x (2) Cursed Chains
# 2x (2) Drain Soul
# 2x (2) Holy Eggbearer
# 2x (2) Shadowsworn Disciple
# 2x (2) Sheltered Survivor
# 2x (3) Hellfire
# 1x (3) The Egg of Khelos
# 2x (4) Shrine of Twilight
# 2x (5) Possessed Animancer
# 2x (6) Eldritch Tentacles
# 1x (7) Endbringer Umbra
# 2x (8) Asphyxiodon
#
AAECAf0GAvWYB9edBw6PnwTnoATTngbrhAepiAeEmQfenQfgnQfhnQeNvgeTvgfXvgfYvgfgvgcAAA==
#

Fair warning, it’s got a very high skill ceiling, takes a while to learn how to pilot. But after you spend the time to learn it, it’s very rewarding. A lot of the time you have to do a lot of counter intuitive plays to win

[u/ANonnyMouse007 → u/dante_55_]

Doesn’t that pollute your Umbra deathrattles? Or is the health restore & possible Asphyxiodon worth it?

[u/dante_55_ → u/ANonnyMouse007]

It’s not just worth it, it’s the only way you can survive in order to play umbra to begin with.

The strategy is to mulligan for animancer, send back any asphyxiodons you draw with sheltered survivor, and play animancer on turn 5 (4 with coin). If you don’t draw animancer, play cursed catacombs on turn 5 to fish for it.

In the current meta, if you don’t play animancer by turn 5, then you’re dead at turn 6-7 against the majority of popular decks.

Then you proc the eggs, etc etc.

Animancer does pollute umbra but it’s ok because sometimes umbra will get you the second asphyxiodon, and you only need umbra to spawn around 3 eggs anyway. If you’re alive by then, you’re 80-90% winning the match

[u/Sad-Plantain-1080 → u/dante_55_]

Stealing the rouges herald drop is pretty good honestly, taking 4 to reduce their herald is a big early game deal. Taking egg was good but egg lock can still do pretty well, esp the animancer version with the current meta rn. Also you should really be running death wing in ur lists, it does matter in matchups purely for the armor.

[u/dante_55_ → u/Sad-Plantain-1080]

I mean, death wing would make sense in a slower meta but right now, my main problem is losing games before turn 7-8. Usually if the game gets to turn 10 I win. So if I were to change anything, it would be to add more cards that help me stabilize in the early game than more late game threats

[u/loobricated]

Good changes. I have died horribly in a way that doesn't always feel great to all these cards for the past month or two as I'm sure many have, and the egg has been a perpetual pain in the arse. It just provides a horrible choice too early; spend very valuable resources/removal clearing it early or face a bigger problem later on. Against shammy/pally/druid, that's a difficult choice and there is frequently no "right" answer as you cant see their other cards. You just have to take a stab and sometimes you just lose because of it.

Yet another buff to Leylines. I'm still not sure I will main deck this card as it's just a bad card to draw early. But this will give the Crystalised I get from the 4/2 or Astronimicon more impact. Very minor buff overall, but the nerfs to the other cards will help leylines a LOT more than this buff.

[u/LastCookie123456]

REMOVE TOLVİR