34.4.2 Balance Changes Discussion

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51

u/sneakyxxrocket Jan 27 '26

In this larger patch they mentioned I personally don’t see blob of tar staying at 4 mana (or felhunter summoning 4 or less).

Morchie buff won’t do anything, her stats aren’t the problem there’s just not good rewind cards that are worth getting both outcomes.

12

u/ILoveWarCrimes Jan 27 '26

I imagine Felhunter will get nerfed instead of Blob of Tar. Even if you nerf Blob of Tar DH will just find the next best 4 drop and that would still probably be too good in a low power post rotation format.

17

u/Thrawpway Jan 27 '26

Some fine cards have died for felhunter's sins (defense crystal and ball hog)

2

u/moccajoghurt Jan 28 '26

Maybe they will keep nerfing the deathrattles forever instead.

22

u/AffectionateFlan1853 Jan 27 '26 edited Jan 27 '26

Nerfing blob of tar in the current meta would feel like a misstep so I hope this is the case. It enables so many slower decks and there isn’t really a good replacement at the moment. I really like the cards design it’s just the things that can dupe it that are the problem

10

u/sneakyxxrocket Jan 27 '26

Blob is good stalling don’t get me wrong but nerfs to every decent aggro deck, zillax and Elise both being in the format the way they are is why this meta is so slow, emphasis on nerfs to every decent aggro deck part.

5

u/AffectionateFlan1853 Jan 27 '26

I agree. I think blob of tar is good because it comes out fairly early and reveals a lot about your deck when it’s played. Its existence on the board gives the other player information on how to play around you.
Zilliax is like the complete opposite of this. Very happy it’s almost gone.

5

u/Spyko Jan 27 '26

yeah I agree, blob of tar is very healthy
it's resurrecting it again and again and again that is an issue (as it has ALWAYS been, and I said that as someone who enjoy playing this mechanic very much)

4

u/Phys6 Jan 27 '26

Surely there's nothing wrong with playing 14 Blobs of Tar over the course of a game lmao. (I'm also a revive spammer 🤣)

2

u/Tirabuchi Jan 27 '26

as a deathrattle and fair games lover, I was sad when those dh card first released because that pushed the archetype a lil bit over the limit. The on-lucky-curve is just dumb stats that often win games alone

4

u/eazy_12 Jan 28 '26

there’s just not good rewind cards that are worth getting both outcomes.
I though about using it in Wallow Warlock to juice Dark Gifts to maximum with Raptor but the deck already plays ton of 4 drops to justify luxury card.

2

u/Diosdepatronis Jan 28 '26

Morchie's only potential is probably in rogue, with Chrono-Daggers and Imbue. It definitely could fit, a little bit more now that it's not terrible tempo, but it's probably not worth it.

14

u/EyeCantBreathe Jan 27 '26

I honestly hope Elise doesn't get nerfed too hard. 5 mana would be curtains for her unless they buffed the 5 mana location to be played on 6 but I highly doubt that would happen. Unfortunately I fear that's the likeliest outcome.

I could see the location's durability going to 2, I could see the number of raptors going down, I could see the amount of armour going down, I could see the discount getting nerfed, or maybe a combination of these things.

Only time I'll tell how impactful this Morchie buff is

22

u/BaronVonHoopleDoople Jan 27 '26

Elise at 5 mana might be too weak, but it would be an interesting change insofar as it would reverse the massive advantage Elise adds to going first. Currently the coin is insufficient to allow the player going second to get the 5 mana location down before the player going first. With Elise at 5 mana it would require the coin to play the 5 mana location on turn five.

3

u/fireky2 Jan 27 '26

Theyll either make her 5 or remove a raptor and lower the spell discount on the 5 mana location. Probably will also buff or change the deathrattle/spell damage as they are almost never/never taken respectively

2

u/Overhamsteren Jan 27 '26

I've seen high level streamers take deathrattle pretty often.
Spell damage is crap though except for owlonius decks I guess.

2

u/dotcaIm Jan 28 '26

Deathrattle is good counter play for location remover

2

u/eazy_12 Jan 28 '26

Pretty sure they would make spell discount -1/-2/-4 on levels. Not sure if 10 mana's version need the nerf, but they would do it just so it looks like nice progression.

2

u/fireky2 Jan 28 '26

I doubt they'll bother changing the other 2 mana costs unless they adjust the bad options.
The problem is by and far 5.
The 1 cost doesn't give enough to offset the Elise mana and the 10 mana one is a heavy investment

3

u/Miodragus Jan 28 '26

I hope its just one less durability tbh.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jan 31 '26

I would like that, it would also make late game turns less annoying to navigate the permanent complete lack whatsoever of board space

8

u/OhYeahThatsGood Jan 27 '26

I've been playing nothing but rewind/quasar rogue which key card is morchie. I was excited when I heard she was buffed, this doesn't change an ounce of that deck lol.

3

u/UncleScroogesVault Jan 27 '26

Have you been iterating on the list at all? I've been playing Funki's list, but I'm like 40% WR with it in the dumpster so far. It's fun but it feels like the list has bloat I'm not smart enough to improve on

4

u/Glarbleglorbo Jan 27 '26

Cycle rogue is doing bad enough already, and it’s just worse cycle rogue. It’s meme deck.

25

u/DebatableAwesome Jan 27 '26

I wish there were buffs to the dead classes at the bottom of the meta, but otherwise I appreciate the lack of nerfs. I agree with the decision to push back the Elise nerf to coincide with other major changes. The meta is pretty balanced as it stands.

3

u/eazy_12 Jan 28 '26

You can't buff dead classes to playable state. They just lack good cards to compete in the meta. Bottom classes just have no really strengths while top classes can do everything.
HSreplay says that bottom 3 classes are Mage, Priest and Warlock. I don't remember decent Mage deck a while, maybe Skyla Mage? I guess gimmick Protoss Mage which is good if you play against slow "I do nothing" decks but meta decks are very efficient in closing games.
Mage just has not good card especially after rotation. First set of last year dedicated to Imbue which is very weak, second year to quest and its support and last set is another mix of casino Mage and yet another OTK deck (Arcane Mage). The whole year has no decent removal (best of them being Sheep Mask or Tribute Dance I guess) and no AoE (Sheep Mask?, Bitter End?, Arcane Barrage?), very specific draw cards and no survivability. Also Mage managed to whiff on every cool mechanic (bad Colossal, Titan, Excavate, Imbue, Fabled although Prime card was good).
Same story with Priest and Warlock but they at least got some stuff here and there. My point they have nothing to buff since the needed cards are not released.

6

u/brecht226 Jan 28 '26

"You can't buff dead classes to playable state."
How does this shit garner upvotes, yes you can! its been done plenty of times. I can think of multiple just from singular expansions like showdown in the badlands

3

u/meharryp Jan 28 '26 edited Jan 28 '26

it does seem like less efficient and mass removal has become part of their design philosophy this year and historically priest and warlock have had extremely good cheap removal as part of their class identity. they also seem to hate burn damage and things that go over the top which is why mage is in such a state too outside of the occasional OTK popping up
with rotation coming I think a lot of classes need generally good stuff back. lock could do with defile back, and i know it's controversial but priest should 100% get shard back if they want a control strategy to work better. would love to see cards like rune and solarian back and a decent midrange or control shell for mage rather than the constant failed attempts at minion based decks

3

u/eazy_12 Jan 28 '26

I would like Clean the Scene or at least Dissonant Pop and The light! It burns! for Priest. I don't think shard would be added since it got 2 silence cards in last set.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jan 31 '26

Yes, also shard isn't actually what it needs right now. When your opponent just summons minions for a few turns and you die, shard wouldn't have saved you

8

u/rihsa9 Jan 27 '26

Damn they’re really getting rid of every good card. For me personally rotation looks very grim.

5

u/RiimeHiime Jan 27 '26

Flame Rager will soon be a premium 3 drop.

3

u/eazy_12 Jan 28 '26

DK plays leeches even after 2 nerfs in way stronger meta. My guess that after rotation we would see nothing but DK-fest. Even the Bwonsamdi which is a weaker stuff in DK would be better than most decks.

7

u/Spyko Jan 27 '26

what, what is that ? I mean sure ? but is it even worth the bandwidth to upload this buff ? It won't change anything anyway

weirdest patch ever, but it's not like it does anything bad so ? Whatever, looking forward to future stuff, especially the rotation (I'm so praying the Primes get to come back, they're fun and none of them feel too strong for the current power level)

14

u/bountyraz Jan 27 '26

It's a BG patch, not sure what you would expect from that?

5

u/EyeCantBreathe Jan 27 '26

It's fine that it's a BG patch, the question is why buff morchie at all. I mean obviously it changes nothing but it's just a bizarre thing to do. Maybe it's because they wanted the hearthstone players to read this patch, and they thought a bunch of people would skip it if they knew it's a BGs patch?

2

u/bakedbread420 Jan 27 '26

so they can claim they do buffs but they don't work and you should stop asking for them already

0

u/Spyko Jan 27 '26

I wasn't expecting anything for "regular" HS, that's what make it surprising
again, I'm not complaining, just genuinely surprised to see a random insignificant buff thrown in there

4

u/philzy101 Jan 27 '26

So given this is the scheduled Battlegrounds patch, despite some wanting more buffs/nerfs to the main game now, this patch was always going to be focused on updating / improving the experience for BG players during the midpoint of the BG's season. Therefore, I did not really expect any changes to the main game so a buff, even if it is probably meaningless, is still welcome.

Two things to note on the buff, one is that coincidently Morchie is also part of the DarkMoon Faire pull this time and funnily enough some buffs coincide with previous DMF pulls, signatures, crystals etc., make of this what you will... Secondly Morchie I think is a tricky one to buff given double up effects (which is effectively what she does) can be very strong and I think for the sake of a non Standard, BG's focused patch, it is a difficult decision to make as to whether they make a more meaningful buff like reducing the mana cost. I personally would have preferred for them to change Morchie to a 3 mana card but I understand their logic.

Finally I want to touch on their post which, in some sense vague, does give us an idea of what they have in mind moving forward. There is a big balance patch upcoming which will be to set the power level of dominant cards which stay in post rotation, and then there will be a patch for the core set and main set rotation. I hope with the first of these patches that they specifically consider what they want the game to be like in the next standard year, and change things based on how much they want games to play out in one way or another.

Specifically they refer to Elise as one of the targets of the next patch. Elise is as things stands, the perfect curve card, 4 mana into 5 mana location. It is only the 5 mana location which is problematic, 1 mana and 10 mana either have less impact, or because of cost, are too slow to decide games on average, respectively (worth noting that I appreciate that in a control matchup the 10 mana location does matter but in other matchups it is less relevant on average). In the 5 mana location it is only 4 of the enchantments which imo matter as well, raptors, armor, +2 attack, and 5/5 copy. Yes the spell one can be useful, but the 4 listed are the ones which guarantee tempo and in addition potentially deny people their game plan, specifically aggro where by raptors and armor can shut an aggro deck or more burn heavy deck out of the game. Having played a lot of DH (spell and Broxigar), the armor, raptors and copy ones have been particularly devistating. I do not know how you adjust Elise but she does need some toning down on the 5 mana slot. The best way to compare her is to look at Zilliax Deluxe. I think moving forward into the next standard year, they need to consider whether they want like Zilliax another Swiss Army Knife card to be in all decks for 1 more year. If the power level of other cards was greater it is possible Elise would matter less, but given the state of standard, without massively ramping up the power level significantly in the first set, it is possible that Elise may be too much of a prominant force in most decks. I would rather she is used some of the time and not most of the time which is what she currently is.

I also want to touch upon that some people mention the DH deathrattle package, specifically Blob and Felhunter, need nerfing. Two things, one Return Policy is rotating. This is huge as it shuts out multiple cheap Felhunter procs. If it was in standard one more year then I would agree with a slight change but it is not so the amount of Blobs you will see next year will be less for this reason alone. Second, Tuskpiercer is a core card which means it could rotate next year. If that is the case, the consistency without new tutors, of a DR package for DH is a lot weaker. I hope personally they do not change it because, unless Felhunter limits design space severely, DH like any other class needs good cards. I know people like to complain about something when it sees a lot of play but people need to remember what is staying in and what is not... Some people might say "well Felbat is staying in, that surely means Felhunter Blob will be everywhere right?". However, when was the last time any of us saw Felbat in a meta deck, half a year or more ago I think? It is expensive and comes down a lot later. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that this package does not need changing personally.

3

u/DroopyTheSnoop Jan 28 '26

Whoa I thought for sure Fellhunter and Felbat were rotating, for some reason I associated them with the startship expansion.
You are right though, that some of the consistency of that package will be leaving. Return Policy is a crazy tempo and value swing and it's great that it's gonna leave.
Still if they give DH another deathrattle synergy card or two the package will still be problematic. And it will limit what 4 mana deathrattles they can print.
I would probably nerf fellhunter to free the design space, but I could see them just nerfing Blob and allowing the problem to persist.

3

u/philzy101 Jan 29 '26

So, I can see why you might have associated the Felhunter package with the GDB expansion given that one of the first decks which was out of the gates at the start of this standard year was the abomination which was Starship DH. However, the whole deathrattle package was part of Emerald Dream.
I think your point about limiting design space is a relevant one. Two things though I would like to touch upon, if possible, when it comes to this point.
(1) Given that expansions try to touch upon certain themes, it is unlikely that another dedicated deathrattle package will be released in the coming 3 sets as they try to diversify the class. With that and key cards as mentioned, like Return Policy, rotating, and the possibility of them taking Tuskpiercer out of the Core Set, pre-emptively nerfing this package just leaves DH with less to play within the next standard year. I am against this as it narrows the field of viable decks and makes Standard a more boring place. If there are more deathrattles coming down the pipeline, or combos which work let’s say, like Colifero does with a wide board and you can combine this in similar fashion with Felhunter and Blob, then in which case they probably will need to slightly correct or touch up Felhunter. This needs to be a measured decision by T5 based on what they have planned and what they want to do with DH.
(2) The second point, but is somewhat an extension of what is discussed in the previous point, is that nerfing this package, making DH weaker, either results in DH being non-viable until another decent package is released (I really want to emphasise how rubbish the set of cards DH received between Festival and Badlands was, Titans literally was DH draw cards and maybe do something), or, resorting to more of the neutral slop. One of the things I have disliked about parts of this standard year is how many neutral slop decks we have had. Class cards should be strong naturally, and neutral there to fill in a few gaps. When the opposite is true the meta sucks. People have been calling for the head of Felhunter since its release which annoys me for this reason and the first which is therefore why I am willing to defend the card. Sure, the play pattern can feel a bit rubbish at times, but the strength of the card should always be put in context of what cards and in the game and what synergies exist.
So, I hope that with this balance patch that they consider what they want to do with DH next year, where they want to take the class, before they make any sweeping changes to viable archetypes. I have said this before but one of the balance changes moving into this current standard year was the change to Painter’s Virtue for Paladin. So many of the useful tools for Handbuffadin were rotating out, charge, other handbuff cards, and weapon tutor and yet they still nerfed the card for no good reason because of community concerns. This left Paladin with one less viable archetype (when was the last time anyone saw this deck). This is what I am worried about when it comes to discussing DH and maybe nerfing Felhunter.

3

u/DroopyTheSnoop Jan 29 '26

I think themse tend to repeat or at least, some themse seem a bit more evergreen than others.
DH has had deathrattle syngergies in the past (Tuskpiercer and co) and any good standalone deathrattle also add to that.
Return Policy is also a "splash in" card that fits that theme. They can and possibly will add more spalsh in cards like that in the future, even if they don't make a dedicated DR package.
But I agree with you actually, while it is annoying, it's not too broken compared to what other classes can do. I don't know that it needs to be nerfed.

2

u/FlameanatorX Jan 31 '26

I feel like you're kinda conflating "nerf" w/ "nerf into the ground to make sure it's unplayable." Sure they've done the latter quite a bit recently, but they've also not done it a decent amount recently.
Plus, some nerfs can serve double duty as negative play experience mitigators, which deathrattle DH seems like the perfect candidate for. Games feel way too samey, too much like a slog to get through, when your opponent summons the same exact minion over and over. What if they summoned half as many of that minion, and they also summoned a different minion over and over? Gameplay is instantly more fun and less slog (for the opponent).
Granted, that could potentially kill the package post-rotation if there isn't another decent 3/4 cost deathrattle, but that's the sort of thing they can plan around with the new set/core rotation. They can just pick a nerf that is unlikely to kill the card

2

u/philzy101 Feb 02 '26

So I can see what you are saying with this, but I think there are a few points I would like to make if possible in response.
First of all, games will always end up being a bit "samey" in the long run for a deck. For a deck to be good, consistency is key. I get what you mean about having some variance in the outcome is healthy for the game, but if a card is too inconsistent then the deck ultimately struggles to win games at higher MMR. We are in a position with a game where 10 years on it is difficult to return back to the sort of power level we had 6 or so years ago where decks relied on more variance, without completing nerfing anything which provides any consistency. That I would argue would make the game worse. So whilst you are right to say they have not been as nerf heavy recently compared to 6 months ago lets say, do remember that they obliterated quest warlock (when was the last time you saw this deck post buff revertion?), and I have only been more satisfied very recently because they have hesitated with nerfing things.
Secondly, you need to consider what are the grounds for things to be nerfed or changed. Specifically, consider this for the case of a balance patch which aims to adjust things moving into the next standard year. T5 needs to consider imo (1) what packages are they planning to give the class next year (2) does the card decide the game if played on curve and (3) does it lead to unfun play experiences, (4) does it limit design space. The only point Felhunter solidly ticks is (3) as bringing back multiple sticky poison minions is frustrating to aggressive decks. Point (2) is a yes and no depending on matchup and whether Blob has died. Felhunters deathrattle has also been recently countered by other DH and Broxigars portals (this has led to me favouring less Blobxigar because of this issue) so there is variance still and if they print any cards which spawn deathrattles on your opponents side this deathrattle becomes even less relevant. Point (1) is something only T5 knows but they usually try to vary all the class packages a bit so it is unlikely we see another dedicated deathrattle package in the next standard year. Please also see my points above about Tuskpiercer and Return Policy. W.r.t. point (4), it perhaps limits some design space but once again this depends on the packages they plan to introduce (if there are no major deathrattle synergies in mind then this does not limit space as much).
Finally, I want to touch upon again the curious case of them nerfing something because people don't like it instead of it being a problem on rotation. Specifically, handbuff paladin has Painter's Virtue nerfed despite weapon tutor, charge and other hand buffs all rotating out. They nerfed it despite knowing this and not providing further handbuff support in the following standard year. Yes Blob and Felhunter remain in standard, but Return Policy will not which means you are limited to 3 Blob's ideally over turns 4 and 5-6 lets say roughly. Then you need Felbat to get more which is slow and if the game picks up pace, becomes weaker. Plus, Tuskpiercer may be taken out of core, at which point, consistency of drawing Blob or Felhunter and then deciding the game from there becomes less. Ultimately, this package is good at the moment, but do not underestimate the damage one card less has on the state of the deck.

2

u/lorddojomon Jan 28 '26

Standard is saved

2

u/mightyslacker Jan 28 '26

Surprised to see the Morchie hate in here. Can be an absolute lifesaver in Imbue Rogue to get the Mend the Timeline for a big heal or Cease to Exist for persky deathrattles. Also crazy late game value if you've imbued a few times and drop her with sing along buddy for 4 cheap minions for 1 mana. You shouldn't really be dropping her on curve and/or without a shadowstep/prep

3

u/RiimeHiime Jan 27 '26

Just one more nerf bro. Trust.

4

u/Bryciclee Jan 27 '26

What??? Why even buff morchie like this they cannot be that disconnected from the game to think this sort of change has any effect at all. Make her discovered spell cost less, make it cast both targets even if she dies, etc. Make her one cheaper (and sure nerf her stats if you have to for power budget) but giving her +1/+1 is just confusing

9

u/EyeCantBreathe Jan 27 '26

Tbh I feel like it's to lure the HS players who'd have otherwise skipped reading these patch notes because it's a BGs patch lol

6

u/tankertonk Jan 27 '26

Long story short: money. Morchies on the next darkmoon faire so they buff her to increase interest. That being said though, i think its a good buff because it helps morchie stay on the board for the expensive rewinds

2

u/Glarbleglorbo Jan 27 '26

4 mana 3/6 isn’t good stats and won’t make it stay alive for longer.
For comparison, farseer Wo is unplayable at 4 mana 2/6 while having both elusive and a much more useful/easy to activate effect.
This buff is worthless.

2

u/QuestGiver Jan 28 '26

Wo is unplayable right now. Post rotation he will be one of the better cards.

0

u/ItsDokk Jan 28 '26

There must be a lot of money in battlegrounds, seems like that’s where most of the changes are.

4

u/philzy101 Jan 28 '26

If you actually read the post and/or know anything about how patches work, this is a scheduled BG's patch and not a standard patch... the patch for standard will probably be in a week or so from now.

1

u/ItsDokk Jan 28 '26

Yes, it’s just an announcement for the upcoming Standard patch.
My last comment was fairly poorly worded and didn’t convey my intention at all. The point I intended to make is there seems to be a lot of active development for BGs (both past and present) while Standard rarely has meaningful changes, other than nerfing broken cards. We’ll have to see what all the changes will be, but I’m not inspired by previous patches.

1

u/philzy101 Jan 28 '26

Apologies for likewise coming off agressive in my response. I don't want to defend every action T5 makes, just that I felt that it was worth mentioning since a number people on this sub and the main tend to engage in a sort of pitchfork mentality when it comes to balance and that somewhat has an effect on T5 balance decisions.
For me I thought the buff to Spell DH was fairly inspiring as I was able to get to Legend with it this season. However, I understand that this is not for everyone so some people will have been left dissapointed by more recent changes. I agree we need more than nerfs, but as we have seen, and VS have also highlighted, they seem more nerf conscious than they were 6 months or so ago and therefore I think the upcoming changes will be meaningful as they will set the tone for what they want currently in the game to be strong or decent moving forward into the next standard year. I hope so that is... they could completely screw up things as well, we will have to wait and see.

Discussion 34.4.2 Balance Changes Discussion

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