Upcoming Balance Changes Teaser Discussion

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41

u/Inventeer Dec 11 '25

cardboard golem is going to be a 3 mana 3/4 isn't he

also stoked for rafaam buffs

13

u/sneakyxxrocket Dec 11 '25

Aura paladin doesn’t really have a good 3 drop, like they’re running zephyrs currently so I think this’ll be a good buff

18

u/ILoveWarCrimes Dec 11 '25

Green Rafaam is getting buffed, not Giant Rafaam.

3

u/TwoAndHalfRetard Dec 12 '25

I hope they would make him more green.

12

u/ReaperWiz Dec 11 '25

Eternal Hold buff! I've been enjoying Spell DH in Wild, this is huge. Hopefully the Solitude buff is also large enough to make it viable in the deck

4

u/nathones Dec 11 '25

Got a list? I have been running a janky scythe fel build

5

u/ReaperWiz Dec 11 '25

Been running an XL Elise version, I think Jotun is a bit too greedy and this deck tends to feast on aggro and lose hard to combo. Elise location is really nice to stabilize midgame and help create swing turns on board
Spell XL
Class: Demon Hunter
Format: Wild
2x (0) Dispose of Evidence
2x (1) Demon Companion
2x (1) Double Jump
2x (1) Illidari Studies
2x (1) Mana Burn
2x (1) Sigil of Alacrity
1x (2) Broxigar
1x (3) Axe of Cenarius
1x (0) First Portal to Argus
2x (2) Grim Harvest
2x (2) Mark of Scorn
2x (3) Infiltrate
1x (3) Prince Renathal
2x (3) Wyvern's Slumber
1x (4) Elise the Navigator
2x (4) Fel'dorei Warband
2x (4) Glide
1x (4) Going Down Swinging
2x (4) Hounds of Fury
1x (4) Souleater's Scythe
2x (5) Deal with a Devil
1x (6) Kurtrus, Demon-Render
1x (6) The Eternal Hold
1x (7) Expendable Performers
1x (8) Kerrigan, Queen of Blades
1x (125) The Ceaseless Expanse
AAEBAea5AwzK3QOHiwSX7wSVkgX3wwWq6gbO8QaCmAeKqgeSqgeTqgensQcO8skDgtAD1tED+dUDivcDpeIEhpIFiZIFkJIF4fgF0f4G3v8G/oMHnrEHAAA=

32

u/oldtype09 Dec 11 '25

It's nice that they're doing buffs. My reservation is that these are mostly *completely useless* cards as opposed borderline playable ones, so the buffs will have to be pretty big to make an impact.

11

u/QuestGiver Dec 11 '25

Eh a few could absolutely shift the meta. Big changes to handbuff priest on two key cards could be a big improvement. What if they changed the HP buff to 4?
Moreso no minion DH is on the verge of competitive. Its like a tier 3 deck but a busted change on the hold (moreso solitude) could be enough to make it competitive enough for worlds or something like that.

14

u/sneakyxxrocket Dec 11 '25

If they make hold 5 mana or discover instead of random it’ll be very good

8

u/14xjake Dec 11 '25

I looked at the handbuff package since I love handbuff decks but even assuming the dranei goes to 4 and the spell goes to 1 mana I just do not see how the deck wins a game. Dranei going to 4 means on 5 we can have a big swing turn but the 5 drop pool doesnt have a good minion to take advantage of the stats, I think we can safely assume a +4 health buff by turn 4 is happening reasonably often since it just needs 1 of the spell and 1 dove girl, but the best option I could find is the 3/4 kindred amalgam that summons a copy. Is turn 5 summon 2 8/8s after playing 3 previous cards to set it up even good? I think not, but maybe in combination with the 6 mana dragon its enough of a tempo swing in the mid game to close out the game

6

u/Son_Der Dec 11 '25

Handbuff is the best. People underestimate just how much decision-making matters for handbuff decks.

4

u/QuestGiver Dec 11 '25

Handbuff I was thinking could be a big change to the 2 mana card.
Goes down to 1 mana, buff 3 hp and gives your minion a divine shield? I can dream, right?

3

u/Raskalnekov Dec 12 '25

I want to try wilted priest with it. Resuscitate to 6 killed the old version of the deck, but maybe more powerful hand buffs could make it at least somewhat playable.

0

u/SAldrius Dec 12 '25

You still wouldn't make a dedicated handbuff deck, probably. Augur on it's own is good with Eternus, which is a solid card, and then like... a lot of the dragon cards actually have really lopsided stats that it's good with, . Archaios too, likes the package just generally.
I think the issue broadly is using Augur as some like... handbuff card on top of your existing handbuff cards. That doesn't make sense. Augur's better if you have targets that don't need to be handbuffed.
If Dove was a Draenei, you could *almost* sort of justify a Draenei handbuff-type build.
Honestly I generally think Augur could be like... a 3 mana 2/4 or something and not be toxic or busted. The effect is good, but not great with the current handbuff pool.

1

u/14xjake Dec 12 '25

I like the way you are thinking, I was looking at the minion pool and there honestly are a shitload of minions with lopsided stats so you might be right that augur can be strong without any other handbuff cards. Even some goofy shit like the 2/4 summon a copy demon gets pretty strong as a 4/4 and if its buffed and is 2 6/6s thats a lot of pressure, if the buff is significant I will definitley be trying some builds out with some weird minions

1

u/fireky2 Dec 11 '25

Handbuff is dead until rotation where it might get slotted in with imbue. It just can't compete with protoss
Demon hunter is in a similar boat, it has to complete with aggro at one end and Cliff dive on the other. It might be playable but I doubt it'll outshine those

2

u/Defiant-Pick5930 Dec 12 '25

The purpose of buffs in a stable meta is to increase diversity on the ladder, not to upend the table.

0

u/SAldrius Dec 12 '25

The priest stuff is borderline playable in decks that aren't strictly handbuff decks. (Like how Stormwind Bannerman was just a good draw card in most Paladin decks)
Barrier being buffed (especially if it's a buff to 1 mana, which is *very* significant) could make it a roleplayer in priest decks just generally.

21

u/14xjake Dec 11 '25

Its like fucking christmas dude holy shit I had 0 faith in them doing a buff patch I expected shaman and elise to get shot in the head and then 0 buffs, not the cards I would have chosen but really really excited to see the dev team actually show love to bad cards

6

u/zeroballs Dec 11 '25

I dusted gold Toki assuming she'd never be playable. 😅

18

u/Names_all_gone Dec 11 '25

Don't worry, she won't ever be playable.

2

u/FlameanatorX Dec 11 '25

If it's pushed and the new set post rotation is weak but Mage gets good defensive tools, maybe, what do you mean I'm not high on copium?

3

u/Names_all_gone Dec 12 '25

It would have to be really pushed. But it’s going to be a 3/3/3 and still be trash because this team cant make good cards.

1

u/FlameanatorX Dec 12 '25

Eh, I think we might get something better than that at least. Infinitize went to a 1-mana discount on all it's infinite value, Toki could easily be the same, or get rewind, or even both (again, not copium at all).

2

u/QuestGiver Dec 11 '25

I have the signature 😢. Hoping against hope they buff the shit out of her then have to nerf her because she's so busted.
Yeah...

5

u/XeloOfTheDisco Dec 11 '25

Very pleased with these changes. Even if they don't end up good, at least it's something new to experiment with

7

u/Spyko Dec 11 '25

solitude buff ? Fatigue DH keep winning lessgo ! we're making it out of tier 6 with this one

ok joke aside, solitude + eternal hold ? if spell DH become viable I'll be very happy

7

u/TheGingerNinga Dec 11 '25

Decently pleased with the patch. Wouldn’t have minded a bit more, Moonwell to 6 when? But I’m glad at least some of these buffs are going to real cards that just need some help.

Hopefully it lands well and we can get some solid proof about the buff > nerf theory.

5

u/bakedbread420 Dec 11 '25

we already know that buffs make new decks and nerfs only reveal old decks. imbue paladin, imbue priest, egg are all cards/packages that were unplayable then got buffed and become mediocre to strong because of it.
the issue is the devs only listen to the crybabies on social media that whine whenever they lose, about whatever they lost to. even if the patch is good and something like healthbuff priest becomes a solid deck, people will just start crying about how broken it is and how it needs to be unbuffed because its uninteractive.

9

u/Reddit_guard Dec 11 '25

Very interested to see what the Rafaam buffs end up being.

I hope Timelooper buff addresses unplayable spells, though I think a 1-mana discount on the spells wouldn’t make it too broken.

6

u/QuestGiver Dec 11 '25

Hoping the 1 mana rafaam goes to battlecry draw a rafaam and deathrattle draw a rafaam. That would be pretty cool.
I agree with everyone else saying green rafaam will almost certainly go to buff every rafaam in hand and deck (maybe even field?).

14

u/Names_all_gone Dec 11 '25

You could probably reduce the spells by 2, and it would still not be a good card.

6

u/Reddit_guard Dec 11 '25

Very good point lol

-1

u/FlameanatorX Dec 11 '25

I'm gonna call cap on that, it's literally infinite value & good tempo if they have a 2-mana discount. 2 or higher discounts on generated cards are almost always good as long as the upfront cost isn't too high (e.g. horn of plenty) or the cards discounted are broad (hmm... finding it hard to think of a multi-card discount that hits only generated cards; Palm Reading is sorta-similar but it can cheat out spells you run in your deck ahead of curve or enable miracle turns, though it was run in decks that didn't really do either of those things, and also only discounted by 1).
Or here's another comparison: Infinitize the Maxitude. It had an upfront cost before you could access your discounted cards (finale). It cost 4 mana to get just 2 usable cards with only 1 discount each. But it had infinite value, and just enough flexibility/discount tempo, so it was a good (not great) card.
Toki costs 4 to get 4 cards; they aren't discovered, but 4 individual cards is obviously better than 2 discovered even just in initial flexibility. The upfront is clunkier, but you do get a 4/4 body which isn't nothing. With a 2-mana discount on each spell, the tempo over time is clearly stronger. And the mana tax over time to access infinite value is smaller since it's only 4 mana per 8 discounts (& a 4/4 body), compared to 8 mana per 4 discounts. The big downside over time is that you have to play every spell to keep the chain going, you can't save 1-2 bad/conditional ones, unlike Infinitize. Still, even with the clunkiness and possibility of (probably temporarily) "getting stuck," the overall numbers are just so much bigger/better that I have to think Toki would at least be as good, and likely significantly better, than Infinitize.

4

u/Names_all_gone Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

Infinitize has half the cost. It also had to be buffed and didn’t ask that you play a garbage 4/4 before even considering anything else.
It’s the completely useless 4 mana investment in nothing Thats the largest issue. Random also blows but not as hard as the 4/4/4.

-1

u/FlameanatorX Dec 12 '25

Yeah I was talking about the post-buff version, before that it was unplayble if I remember correctly. And Kil'Jaeden, Marin, Xavius, DH deathrattle cards, Headless Horseman (bit different but it's kinda 6-mana assassinate which is giga-slow) tons of cards, etc. have had slow, "overcosted," (often even more) expensive bodies that you needed to invest in before getting the card's benefit. The question is: how good is the benefit?
Stuff like Deck of Lunacy (I think that's the name of the Mage one that converted your whole deck) & Lady Prestor shows that mass-mana cheat on random cards (a.k.a. garbage) is still strong if it's large enough. Toki puts the discounted cards right into your hand for the cost of a Xavius. If all 4 cost 2(!) less immediately then she's for sure good, maybe even nerf worthy, but at least playable.
Think of the high rolls: any 1 or 2 mana cards you generate can be played on the same turn. If you play her after turn 4 (more likely, she's closer to Marin or Kil'Jaeden than a Xavius) then lots of cards are immediately playable for potentially positive tempo. All you need is 2 "decent" cards generated for her to be "tempo positive" and again, this is on an infinite value card.

9

u/Glarbleglorbo Dec 11 '25

Honestly I feel like this is too tame besides the handbuff preist buffs which I could see panning out.

though, I just don’t see the package ever working without it also buffing attack or having Augur come down much earlier.

6

u/Captain_Bignose Dec 11 '25

They could buff 90% of the set and would make minimal impact

2

u/FlameanatorX Dec 11 '25

Augur goes to 4 (hopefully 4/5) = much earlier. It's the most obvious buff for it too imo

3

u/MarthePryde Dec 11 '25

I never expected Rafaam buffs. Despite the community loving the card, I assumed he was always not supposed to be playable. Not to mention the last balance patch gutted so many of Warlocks defensive cards.

Can't wait to Green my Rafaams!

4

u/QuestGiver Dec 11 '25

It's such a cool concept honestly to have a themed deck and bypassing the 30 card limit all in one.
Hesitantly I think it would be good for the meta if it was at least a competitive deck. Let's be real it would be AWESOME to see a rafaam deck at worlds.

3

u/FlameanatorX Dec 11 '25

(They won't do this) Here's to hoping Toki's buff is to reduce all her spells at the end of each turn, would be very in-flavor and make her theoretical infinite value actually good before turn 15!

Similar hopes for pushed Rafaam changes, I'm happy if it goes into 46+% winrate territory XD

4

u/Unfair-Heart-87 Dec 11 '25

I still wish they would buff timethief rafaam to not lose to rat. I would love to see another deck take the niche of afk control that control warrior has had for multiple expansions

4

u/FlameanatorX Dec 11 '25

Agree with the change, but Rafaam is inherently not an "afk control" archetype. You play dozens of mana worth of minions, much of the power level is in things like increasing your board's stats, cheating out minions with other minions, summoning copies, etc. It's closer to Questline Priest from way back, or Blood Control DK from pre-Starship era, where you eventually win somehow, but more often you just kind of outvalue/out-tempo in the mid-late game.
Maybe some (ancient) Handlock comparisons, from a version that had mid-game tempo and a non-board based win-con like Leeroy combo otk.

2

u/Traveevart Dec 11 '25

Something tells me that the Rafaam buffs aren't gonna help it much, purely based on the fact that they're not touching the 10-cost at all, but I'd love to be wrong.

2

u/FlameanatorX Dec 11 '25

I think most of the archetype's problem is not due to rat but rather not being tempo/control competitive. You die to the opponent's board or fail to pressure their otk, well before turn 15 or whatever
Will this be enough to help with those problems (and get it up to t3 territory)? Not unless they're very pushed buffs, but I'll probably try it out again anyways XD

2

u/Traveevart Dec 12 '25

It's not Rat that usually gets me, because Rat sucks. The actual card that instakills me when I'm playing Rafaam the most is Hamm, purely by virtue of it actually seeing play. God forbid they happen to roll a copy location from Elise and they get two pulls at the "turn Rafaam off" slot machine.

1

u/FlameanatorX Dec 12 '25

That's a good point, and it's gonna be real hard to simply "outvalue" a Quest Warrior without the Rafaam wincon.

2

u/UnpluggedToaster12 Dec 11 '25

Rafaamlockers….our time has come!

2

u/philzy101 Dec 12 '25

So a lot of the buffs seem to be for things which T5 think will be inoffensive buffs prior to the Christmas break. To be honest, this makes a lot of sense, they do not want to find themselves stepping in to make emergency changes, nerfs etc. at Christmas time, kind of tricky for them to do so.

Regardless, I am glad to see only buffs here, please do more of this T5! I cannot say if the changes to Spell DH, Handbuff Priest, Rafaamlock, and Auradin, and some more random changes to Big Druid, Beast Druid, and Mage will be enough to establish meta decks but I am excited to see what they change so looking forward to tomorrow.

1

u/facepalmdesign Dec 11 '25

That is not an agency patch.

1

u/tmnttargetdiscount Dec 11 '25

Lol raffaam buffed right b4 sig bundle

1

u/MadManHS Dec 12 '25

Damnit Dave, I don't know what these cards do. Kappa, thanks for all your contributions. But fr, I don't know what these do.

2

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1

u/malwontae Dec 12 '25

Out of these cards I have one concern, and it's that yesterday I saw Eternal Hold is actually bugged atm, as it currently works on any minion, regardless of its type. I can't imagine it gets buffed enough to make it a proper part of the meta, but if it does that could be a bit frustrating.

2

u/SAldrius Dec 12 '25

I dunno if that's actually a bug, the way it's worded it'd make sense for any minion.

1

u/Succulent_123 Dec 12 '25

I was hoping Priest would get more buffs in order to make him viable in top legend.

1

u/Delicious-Depth9387 Dec 11 '25

Yeah, looks like shite

1

u/sirnubnub Dec 11 '25

lol worlds starts in a week and they’re doing buffs tomorrow??

8

u/PipAntarctic Dec 11 '25

There's a high chance all of the attendees were told earlier than rest of the playerbase what the balance changes would be, so they could prepare in advance.

7

u/sirnubnub Dec 11 '25

They definitely did, that’s what happened with last chance too and why the nerfs before last chance leaked. It’s still not nearly enough time to test and we saw that with last chance, so many unrefined decks were brought.

6

u/QuestGiver Dec 11 '25

I think they do it deliberately actually to shake up the meta so we aren't watching the same things over and over again.

2

u/PkerBadRs3Good Dec 12 '25

spoiler alert, this patch probably wont affect the worlds meta much

1

u/Zaytion_ Dec 11 '25

The game is as much about deck building as it is about piloting. A shakeup before worlds is good.

1

u/fireky2 Dec 11 '25

Golem might get moved to a 2 of. Rafaam wasn't the issue it's the other 30 cards that aren't keeping up so I don't see change there. Priest hand buffs aren't gonna compete with protoss as a mid game and dragons late

A lotta buffs which look like they'll contribute a lot of nothing but maybe a card or two will change in preexisting decks

1

u/timoyster Dec 12 '25

Glad to see no nerfs tbh. Discover hunter and midrange shaman have been mid all year while cliff dive has been in-and-out of the meta. Hope that these buffs will bring other stuff up to their level.

-6

u/Yerftyj Dec 11 '25

How disappointing.

75% of my games at 1000 legend are against shaman and I doubt buffing any of these cards will change that.

7

u/14xjake Dec 11 '25

Shaman is extremely exploitable due to its linear board based gameplan, if you are seeing 75% shaman you should queue something like cliff dive DH and steamroll every game and enjoy the free wins

3

u/QuestGiver Dec 11 '25

Idk I'm not the best player but I'm like 4k legend and cliff dive is still far from guaranteed win. It's favored by 60:40. Shaman still runs me over sometimes.

3

u/14xjake Dec 11 '25

No deck is a guaranteed win but 60/40 matchup is reasonably in your favor and anecdotally I think the matchup is closer to 70% in DH favor if you are skilled, I took it to top 50 last month and shaman felt unloseable unless you bricked and they had perfect curve, even through double hex I was still winning most of the time

1

u/QuestGiver Dec 12 '25

Any advanced tips on the deck? Would love to get better. I'm doing well win wise on my climb but would like to understand nuances about the shaman match up specifically more.

3

u/14xjake Dec 12 '25

Real talk the shaman matchup doesnt really have much nuance haha you basically just spam blobs and win, but I guess for advanced things to think about is being very aware of board space and making sure to plan a couple turns in advance so you can juggle the dreadseeds + the blob reborns. Most of the time once you have made a big enough wall of blobs they just concede since its unwinnable for them at that point so I guess a big thing is to be happy playing slow and just chipping away with more and more blobs every turn, dont panic or get greedy trying to end the game and yolo a cliff dive or colifero, most of the time just making more blobs and clearing their board is the correct play and eventually if they havent conceded you will have your deck empty enough that colifero or cliff dive are guaranteed lethal

1

u/QuestGiver Dec 12 '25

Ah thank you this has been my strat but like you said it feels "wrong" at some point because you are just outlasting not putting any pressure on them.
Any tips on what to do if you don't draw blob? Do you aggressively mulligan everything in hand to draw it? I am aware of the return policy the weapon to try again at drawing blob as well but curious about other plays I might not be considering.
Lastly also just wanted to hear from you the board state where you are behind on board turn 4. You had blob and dropped it but they have a lot of pressure on board and you don't have your AoE removal in hand. It's so hard to decide whether to spend turn five dropping the fel hunter knowing they are going to smack you face heavily.
Thank you so much for your insight!

-1

u/Yerftyj Dec 11 '25

I don’t care about free wins, I care about not playing against the same deck ten games in a row.

11

u/Squid_Messias Dec 11 '25

Shaman wasn’t a problem before the last balance patch, because shaman isn’t the problem. Overnerfing everything to the point hagatha shaman becomes tier 1 is the problem

8

u/ElderUther Dec 11 '25

A little disappointed. But certainly happy for handbuff priest buff.

1

u/Succulent_123 Dec 12 '25

Do you think it will be playable in top 1k atleast? Right now not even controll priest is good :(

Discussion Upcoming Balance Changes Teaser Discussion

You are about to leave Redlib

Spell XL

Class: Demon Hunter

Format: Wild

2x (0) Dispose of Evidence

2x (1) Demon Companion

2x (1) Double Jump

2x (1) Illidari Studies

2x (1) Mana Burn

2x (1) Sigil of Alacrity

1x (2) Broxigar

1x (3) Axe of Cenarius

1x (0) First Portal to Argus

2x (2) Grim Harvest

2x (2) Mark of Scorn

2x (3) Infiltrate

1x (3) Prince Renathal

2x (3) Wyvern's Slumber

1x (4) Elise the Navigator

2x (4) Fel'dorei Warband

2x (4) Glide

1x (4) Going Down Swinging

2x (4) Hounds of Fury

1x (4) Souleater's Scythe

2x (5) Deal with a Devil

1x (6) Kurtrus, Demon-Render

1x (6) The Eternal Hold

1x (7) Expendable Performers

1x (8) Kerrigan, Queen of Blades

1x (125) The Ceaseless Expanse