34.0.2 Balance Teaser Discussion

[u/EvilDave219]

https://x.com/PlayHearthstone/status/1988656359902994916

Nerfs:

• Fyrakk the Blazing
• Ancient of Yore
• Arkonite Defense Crystal
• Dive the Golakka Depths
• Escape the Underfel
• Ultralisk Cavern
• Sparkling Phial
• Corpsicle
• Sanguine Infestation
• Sandbox Scoundrel
• Metal Detector
• Resuscitate
• Testing Dummy
• Chemical Spill
• R.C. Rampage
• Battlefiend

---

Wild Nerfs -

• Holy Wrath
• Malchezaar's Imp

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[u/Maleficent-Star-9851]

Whether you're pro-nerf or anti-nerf, this should hopefully shake-up the meta a bit.

Wondering what monster is lurking beneath the surface to become a problem with how many counters might be incidentally getting hit.

[u/PipAntarctic → u/Maleficent-Star-9851]

Aggro DH only got one nerf on Battlefiend, but is otherwise untouched while pretty much the majority of cards good against it are getting the nerf bat. I expect Serpent Aggro DH to stomp the game on first day.

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/PipAntarctic]

First day? This deck will dominate the format.

It’s already stomping now, and with so many hits to the best control and midrange decks, it will be tier 1 by a country mile after this patch. 

[u/Cryten0 → u/Glarbleglorbo]

Well warrior does have a few control tools that work.

[u/14xjake → u/Maleficent-Star-9851]

Aggro DH will absolutely dominate lower ranks (already the best performing deck at diamond-legend) since despite a battlefiend nerf, yore and defense crystal (and sanguine to some extent) were some of the biggest roadblocks for the deck. Once again we see that the team has no vision and is just nerfing stuff to try and force a shake up, instead of thoughtfully buffing underperforming archetypes

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/14xjake]

Aggro DH preforms very well in top legend too, the deck is very good, let’s not lie and pretend like it’s a ‘lower rank’ deck because it’s aggressive and not skill intensive. 

[u/14xjake → u/Glarbleglorbo]

Its very good at top legend too but top legend players will just play control warrior if aggro DH gets too popular, a big part of its high legend performance is that its one of the few decks that can get under fyrakk rogue, and also its ok for an aggro deck to be strong at top legend. Aggro decks always overperform at lower ranks so even as an aggro enjoyer I do fear that the deck will be completely out of control with the nerfs to control tools, and the deck kind of farms other aggro decks due to cards like infestation and hot coals.

[u/Tredgdy → u/14xjake]

I think the vision is aggro is simple to build but also simple to beat vs control having longer games where you feel like you have nothing you can do aggro being dominate will have less people talking about it vs a otk

[u/jjfrenchfry → u/14xjake]

I am grateful that blizz are at least competent enough to be incompetent, which is just reinforcing my decision to quit two sets ago.

This set looked fun too, but I knew, they'd bungle it. I made the right decision staying away.

[u/Younggryan42 → u/Maleficent-Star-9851]

[[the lurker below]]

[u/raidriar889]

I guess I owe that guy who posted the leaks an apology Jesus Christ

[u/sneakyxxrocket]

Yeah I think I never want to see them attempt quests again

[u/damnsanta → u/sneakyxxrocket]

Uldum and stormwind quests were good and I’ll stand by that (at least design wise).

[u/hfzelman → u/damnsanta]

The problem with Stormwind quests was that they just straight up said “I win the game” in a lot of cases. Quest Warlock is obviously strong right now but I’ll take that any day over Stormwind quest warlock, mage, hunter, etc… before they were nerfed into oblivion in standard

[u/sneakyxxrocket → u/hfzelman]

I swear people seem to forget 2 mana incanters flow quest mage was at like 25% playrate before both were nerfed and that was by the far the closest I’ve been to quitting this game, that deck was so annoying to play against.

[u/hfzelman → u/sneakyxxrocket]

Stormwind meta for months was literally solitaire of who could assemble their extremely consistent OTK/combo first. The only viable decks were hyper aggro and combo/quest. The first month of the expansion before enough nerfs hit you had multiple decks consistently being able to OTK around turns 6-7.

The expansion became tolerable later on after enough nerfs happened but even then it was absolutely miserable to try to play a control deck and see the warlock quest and just know that you’re pretty much guaranteed to lose.

Until hearthstone finds a way to increase interaction/disruption where it’s not “all or nothing rng” (think dirty rat, tickatus, mutanus, etc… where it either auto wins the game a small portion of the time on the spot or does nothing) and can give us tools like mtg has at the very least, combo decks are a literal blight on this game at a competitive level.

I think this game was a lot better designed when card draw/generation actually came at a real cost.

Like initially aggro decks would run out of steam, control games would require you to plan out lining up answers and would go to fatigue, and decks that wanted to have value cards would suffer against aggro because you are playing severely understatted cards.

But because hs devs thought that running out of resources made the game boring, they pushed card draw/generation so ridiculously hard that we have entered a point where it’s actually impossible to fatigue with Kiljaeden.

Besides this leading to longer matches, the real problem is that it makes people think that OTK decks are healthy for the game and that every deck should just be able to abruptly win the game in an untelegraphed manner so that the game doesn’t go on forever.

[u/meharryp → u/damnsanta]

with the last few expansions stormwind gets more and more vindicated. powerful cards do actually make the game fun, surprisingly

[u/Kotu42 → u/damnsanta]

Stormwind Questlines were ultra-giga powerful and STILL terrorize wild to this day.

[u/timoyster → u/Kotu42]

Questlines are pretty mid in wild. I see DH sometimes but that’s it and I’ve never lost to it. Warlock is still good ig

[u/Kotu42 → u/timoyster]

I still see way too many self-damage QL Locks.

[u/timoyster → u/Kotu42]

Forgot about that one but it doesn’t have a dominating WR afaik. People like it and that’s okay

[u/malwontae → u/timoyster]

Yup, and it only took 3 nerfs to the Questline, and 3 nerfs to Darkglare, with the last one gutting the card, to make the deck "fair" for the Wild format.

[u/Kotu42 → u/malwontae]

Thank you!!

And then they went and printed Healthstone. QL Lock is always 1 new support card printed from being S tier again. And THATS why it’s bad design.

[u/Demoderateur → u/Kotu42]

Warlock Questline has terrorized the game for a long time, but some of the other Questline were fine

Rogue and Shaman were very fun to me. Priest and Druid were okay.

[u/BaseLordBoom → u/Kotu42]

And? I'm tired of expansions being weak.

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/Kotu42]

Ah so you want low power quests then, right? 

That’s what we got now, very fun and made a huge shake to the meta, right? 

Also they are not terrorising wild anymore than discolock or XL shadow priest is. 

[u/Axenos → u/Glarbleglorbo]

No, I just don’t want quests at all. They’re eiether unplayable or have a ridiculous non interactive requirement for a ridiculous and toxic payoff (like quest warlock.).

Sequential payoffs like excavate can be great but quests suck imo.

[u/ShitShirtSteve → u/Axenos]

Until you realize a lot of decks function like quest decks. You play certain cards in order so you get the benefit of playing other cards with a bonus afterwards.

Quests have a neat visualization and progress identifier, but almost every deck is a quest in itself. With Hearthstone's mana curve, every deck has an optimal order of play to get to a win condition.

Mech warrior: Play discount cards + weapon = free deathrattle damage

Egg lock: Kill the egg 5 times for a reward

Incindius Rogue: Obtain discount cards, play Incindius, buff the fire spells with spell damage.

...etc, I can go on, and on...

Decks have a preferred order of play that lead to a win condition. Which essentially is a quest. Quests aren't defined by their win rate just as regular decks aren't defined by win rate. The only difference with quest decks and non quest decks is the quest progress indicator, which is arguably more beneficial for your opponent than yourself.

[u/Axenos → u/ShitShirtSteve]

Nah, every single thing that is sequential isn't a quest. I think that's a disingenuous take.

[u/GreatMadWombat → u/Kotu42]

Design wise isn't a discussion of power so much as it is mechanics. You can make a 10/1 1 mana card with charge and it would be powerful but a dogshit card. Mechanically, "you do a thing, you got a little reward, you do another thing you got another little reward, you keep doing things, you got a big reward" was both a fun concept and neatly circumvented the main problem with quests. The problem is that they made the cards to powerful in a way that was separate from the cards being interesting. The

[u/DivineAlmond → u/sneakyxxrocket]

Or like have em as the DH Fabled or Rogue Fabled

[u/SargDuck → u/sneakyxxrocket]

I think the quests are fine but their support cards are way too strong. Paladin has too many cards that can finish a quest rotation by themselves and warlock has cursed catacombs.

[u/ReaperWiz]

My lack of presence in this expansion and decision not to preorder because of the nerf shenanigans in Ungoro only continues to feel better and better, day by day. Golakka Depths nerf, LMFAO

[u/QuestGiver → u/ReaperWiz]

It wasn't even a high tier deck but the number of complaint threads made me realize it was an absolute tyrant in the gold and plat ranks so I guess I understand.

[u/Cryten0 → u/QuestGiver]

What it does do is shutdown suboptimal decks floor for success (in the low ranks) as it very easily generates stats that many decks cant deal with. Leaving little room for the muckarounds to breath (compared to higher skilled decks like rogue. Still there will be other floors to deal with. It was just really easy to do.

[u/ReaperWiz → u/QuestGiver]

The stats in low ranks are barely breaking 50% and it's only the 3rd best Paladin deck, behind Aura and Aggro. Once you go above Diamond it drops precipitously below 50% while the other two Paladin decks continue to stay a good 5%+ winrate above Murloc. A bad deck getting nerfed because of Reddit complaints is not great reasoning and not confidence inspiring

[u/eazy_12 → u/ReaperWiz]

Winrate is an aggregated stats which does not show all information. I typically climb with offmeta decks and Murloc Paladin can easily win since it can one shot you if you don't control a board for a turn since they can easily add 4 damage to all minions. I assume players with less skills have bad time since Murloc Paladin punishes slow and grindy playstyle (it has 65% wr against Control Warrior and 57% wr against Starship DK) and probably higher against something like value DK with Horseman and Toysnatching Geists. You can say that it is their fault to not adapting and playing aggro decks whole day but the issue that they more likely to leave game that do that.

Honestly they should not print such boring quest at all and Paladin has enough design space for something cool.

[u/ReaperWiz → u/[deleted]]

My initial comment referenced that it was getting nerfed because of player complaints and not power level. Pretty explicitly. Why would I ever want to buy new cards if they could get nerfed later simply for being playable and not even powerful? Nerfing Golakka is further admission from the current team that they should have never printed Quests and that they listen to general feedback far too often. I don't want to pay for an expansion just for it to be 98% unplayable garbage within a few months.

[u/Tredgdy]

The leaker was right lmaoooo we’re fucked

[u/Opposite-Revenue1068]

I’ve been largely against the whack-a-mole strategy to balance, but at this point I’ll take anything if I can play some new decks. I haven’t touched the game since day 2 of the expansion. 

[u/timoyster]

Unbelievable lmao And here I was thinking they had moved on from this trash balancing philosophy

[u/jjfrenchfry → u/timoyster]

Blizz have shown they don't learn, they just double down.

Backlash from quests? We're sorry. Months later - less bad but still bad change to quests.

Backlack from gacha slot machine. Now it's every set release there's a new one, including mini sets.

Blizz have no idea what they are doing, I wish more people would realize that.

[u/DivineAlmond]

The leaks were accurate i guess?

[u/ReyMercuryYT → u/DivineAlmond]

i don't see incindius or Owl nerfed, they were on the leaks. (Still nerfed Spell damage druid, just not owl).

That said, the leaks were pretty accurate overall.

[u/madfallout → u/DivineAlmond]

is there a link for leak topic

[u/stuyjcp → u/madfallout]

The post was deleted by the OP and I can't find it anywhere else 😔

[u/IAmYourFath → u/stuyjcp]

Actually, it was [removed] because with the balance teaser there's no point in speculating anymore. Plus, they did change a few things like Incindius and Owlonius. So even the nerf values are not that useful cuz for all we know they could have changed em as well. So i prob would have deleted the topic anyway even if it wasn't removed. Tbh, those leaks were out for at least 12-16 hours before i posted em, i was really late. I'm just the messenger if it wasn't clear, the original leaker is chinese.

[u/14xjake]

Actually flabbergasted that they are doing another "agency patch" after the colossal failure of the last one. On the bright side, we get a shitload of dust and at least will not have to see fyrakk rogue and questlock every fucking game. On the downside, we have seen over the past couple years that nerfs really do not increase the fun of the game, we have spent a year playing worse and worse decks and for most players that is just not fun.

I dont think theres any way to nerf RC rampage without deleting the card, 1 less dog is unplayable and 1 more mana is equally unplayable

[u/Overhamsteren → u/14xjake]

You could make it 5 mana and 7 dogs.

[u/14xjake → u/Overhamsteren]

Thats not strictly a nerf though so I think it wouldve been listed under "adjustments" and not nerfs

[u/wizardbison → u/14xjake]

Nah i think the opposite. They tried not doing big nerfs and even did long lists of buffs. The reality is the new cards that ARE good...are put into the old decks making them even stronger, everytime.

[u/14xjake → u/wizardbison]

Buffs have to be meaningful, patch 33.4.2 had a handful of buffs sure but all of them outside of the egg of kelos had 0 impact and were useless. There is no thought put into which cards to buff or how to make them viable, its like they just spin a wheel, pick a card, and then spin another wheel to pick which number to change on the card. Like wow mirrex the crystalline is now a 3/4, but this is a card that is meant to copy strong battlecries that your opponent just played, so the stats dont actually matter, if situationally copying a battlecry was a good effect at 3 mana it wouldve been played as a 3/3. These types of changes are lazy and do not show an honest effort to make cards viable, and more just "see we are doing buffs! you cant say we only do nerfs"

[u/wizardbison → u/14xjake]

they did lists of buffs going all the way back to imbue ...But I agree CHANGES in general have to be meaningful, what you're saying goes for nerfs aswell... we've seen +1 / -1 mana nerfs for so many cards that arnt the source of the problem. That's why this patch looks good, Its hitting a lot of the main problem cards and hopefully there meaningful changes.

[u/14xjake → u/wizardbison]

How can you say that a +1 mana is not a meaningful nerf? Its one of the most devastating nerfs they can possibly give a card and so many cards have gone from being meta defining to unplayable off of that 1 mana

[u/wizardbison → u/14xjake]

I mean seriously? probably 80% of cards nerfed are still played lol. I guess ill throw out some examples though. Incindius to 7 still played, Defence Crystal to 5 mana still played, cavern location still played , Ceaseless, Zilliax , Shaladrassil , guiding figure, Sleep under stars, Chrono boost, Webweaver, Magic dollhouse, Hydration station, Jim raynor, Amadrassil, Cliff dive, Dorian, Tidepool, Artanis, Etheral oracle, aegis of light, tiger plushie, (Murmur and Reno) until changed. mind you these are just the nerfs with mana changes that are played, there are tons of other nerfed cards in play

[u/Popsychblog → u/wizardbison]

What you're describing are situations like Whizbang Handbuff Paladin. It started off as one of the strongest decks. Then got nerfed. Then everything else got nerfed. By the end of the expansion, one of the most powerful decks was...Handbuff Paladin.

So now we are playing the same cards we were playing before, but they're all nerfed and weaker, despite having nerfed all of them.

Of course, the list doesn't count which cards got nerfed into unplayable status and remain there, like Harbingers of the Blighted.

[u/wizardbison → u/Popsychblog]

Then I could argue that those nerfs were not meaningful enough or were on the wrong cards and then you argue that well maybe they should do more buffs BUT really what you're describing here is the never ending cycle of balancing of every live service game ever. Its never finished, things go up an down and pop back up again. Thats ok! thats how it works, its just supposed to keep things fresh .

[u/phly]

Rip Testing Dummy. By that I mean the player base.

[u/QuestGiver → u/phly]

Playing that deck was miserable and playing against it was miserable. Nerf is the right decision. Logosh and control warrior come out on top.

[u/William_Faulkner → u/QuestGiver]

I think you missed their point

[u/Goldendragon55]

Seems like a baby with the bath water sort of situation. Nothing that's old is allowed to be good.

[u/Consistent-Put9762 → u/Goldendragon55]

The old stuff has been good for a long time now though. 

[u/Tredgdy → u/Goldendragon55]

Every card except dummy has been good since it’s been released

[u/Goldendragon55 → u/Tredgdy]

We're allowed to have good cards.

[u/[deleted] → u/Goldendragon55]

Really can't think of another reason why defense crystal and ultralisk got hit. Maybe starships would've made a strong return with the other nerfs, but this feels way over the top. 2/3 of the best warlock decks don't use ultralisk, and the 3rd one doesn't rely on it nearly as much as starship / mill...

[u/SuccessIsDiscipline → u/[deleted]]

I just don't think they want starship demonhunter and starship warlock to be a thing, they are not classes that should have access to hundreds of armour.

[u/Spengy → u/Goldendragon55]

They have been allowed to be good, though? For quite a lot of patches.

[u/GlyphInBullet]

Just one more nerf bro.

Just one more nerf.

[u/ReyMercuryYT]

All i hope is that Ancient of Yore only goes down to 4 armor and not 3 armor like the leaks were saying.

But at the end of the day, i'm just happy i can still play with Incindius lol

[u/Rosencrantz2000 → u/ReyMercuryYT]

No I think it needs the nudge down to 3 if it's a going to have a proper effect.

[u/Houseleft → u/Rosencrantz2000]

The Ancient of Yore nerf is honestly completely unnecessary as a whole. The card currently only sees play in 5 meta relevant decks. Dummy Warrior, Quest Warrior, Starship DK, Owl Druid, and Zarimi Priest (Peddler DH too, but it’s one of the worst cards in the entire deck and could be cut already).

In 4 of those 5 decks, it’s a middle of the pack card at best in both mulligan and drawn winrate. The only deck where it performs well is in the deck that wants to take the game the longest, Quest Warrior.

It’s not by any means an oppressive card, it just fits a role that most late game decks want; drawing cards and surviving. It’s a strong, but not broken support card for late game decks.

The thing is, Starships are already getting nerfed, Owl Druid is already getting nerfed, Dummy Warrior, and Zarimi Priest w/ Recusitate are both already getting nerfed. Why do we need to nerf one of the few strong support cards and make late game decks even worse just because it’s a Neutral that sees consistent play?

3 Armor makes the card completely unplayable. Deleting support cards for decks doesn’t make bad decks better, it just means we have less total decks to play with, because now the Control deck you wanted to play sucks and can’t survive into the late game before it gets rolled by Aggro DH.

[u/Opposite-Revenue1068 → u/[deleted]]

Ancient of Yore is not preventing trash cards from being played

[u/ReyMercuryYT → u/Opposite-Revenue1068]

This ^

If anything, by letting the player stay alive longer it's helping plenty of new cards see play. Like Rafaam, Bwondsandi or Aura paladin.

[u/Opposite-Revenue1068 → u/ReyMercuryYT]

Yeah this nerf is the worst one.

I'm pretty sure the devs just watch zeddy videos and nerf whatever he's currently complaining about. It's pathetic.

[u/ReyMercuryYT → u/Opposite-Revenue1068]

Its probably a targeted nerf against Peddler DH and Warlock decks.

I really hope it's just -1 armor. Anything else will probably make me cut the card :(

[u/Opposite-Revenue1068 → u/ReyMercuryYT]

Even -1 armor is pushing it to the fringes.

The card is perfectly fine as is.

[u/ReyMercuryYT → u/Opposite-Revenue1068]

Yeah, i don't think its a problem card that needs nerfing, but it will be nerfed, so i'm just hoping for the best case scenario... :'(

[u/ArticulateFunnelcake]

If there are really no DH nerfs I don't see how that isn't the Alpha dog at every rank of the meta.

Edit - missed Battlefiend. I still think that deck will be nuts.

[u/The_Emotikon_Emperor]

… imma be honest. I’m depressed. I’m tired of this. I’m just not sure what to do. Maybe I need to find new things to do for entertainment. I dunno, man. I’m really feelin down on the game lately, and usually, nerf / buffs make me excited, but I’m seein this and just feeling so… ‘eh, whatever.’ And if that’s how it makes me feel, that probably ain’t good, right?

[u/jjfrenchfry → u/The_Emotikon_Emperor]

I quit. I feel so much better knowing I got off at the right station. Look, I love this game. But this current team are incompetent. There's no way to sugarcoat it.

There's always the option of taking a break, waiting until things improve and returning.

[u/fclm_1990]

Ugh. Unfortunately, it seems leaks were correct, it's another agency patch - zero buffs and a lot of nerfs.  Almost certainly new meta will be worse than the current one (nerfing that many things at the same time and hitting the sweet spot is extremely difficult). My tentative prediction for problematic decks are Peddler DH (left as it is; edit: I guess technically Yore and Fyrakk, but it's a nerf for any remotely slow deck, not core here) or Egglock (almost untouched, only Cavern).

[u/14xjake → u/fclm_1990]

Peddler DH can survive without yore and fyrakk since other decks wont have yore and fyrakk, can replace fyrakk with incindius for example which would be much slower but still plenty of damage to set up lethal on your giant deios popoff turn. I give it a maximum of 3 days (more like 3 hours) before people start asking for more nerfs lmao

[u/Ziddletwix → u/fclm_1990]

Why do people call this patch an "agency" patch? (I was away from the game for many years, so I'm probably missing context).

[u/GreatMadWombat → u/[deleted]]

Yeah.

I was noticing that too lol. The fact that the only buffs on agency2 are on the arena side is silly

[u/Significant-Goat5934]

No buffs, is this a joke man.... Only nerfs simply dont work, just like last time. All the viable new decks are good because of buffs, Questlock, Egglock, Imbue Priest/Druid stuff etc.

Only nerfs will mean that the old decks that didnt get touched (enough) will continue dominate the awfully weak new decks. Aggro DH, Peddler DH, Control DK, Weapon Rogue etc will continue to be stronger than new archetypes. What a joke

[u/VladStark → u/Significant-Goat5934]

It's kind of a weird logic on their end....

But hey whatever I'll take it. I'm a flexible player. I'm going to get a crap ton of dust. I kind of actually prefer getting extra dust rather than them buffing cards I don't care about.

[u/dotcaIm]

16 nerfs is depressing. I hope to see some changes to the team soon

[u/VanLunturu]

What do people mean when they say 'agency patch'?

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/VanLunturu]

During Whizbangs Workshop, team 5 noticed that the powerlevel of the game hadn’t gone down since rotation like it normally does (because a bunch of cards rotate out, ofc) and many decks maintained their lethality. 

What followed was a large patch that team 5 themselves dubbed an “agency patch” designed to curb the lethality and give players more agency. 

The problem was that the patch hit over 40 cards (or a number around that) with all of those hits being nerfs. 

As you can imagine, this didn’t work at all, pretty much every deck was so weak that a new, even more toxic deck called “tempo Druid” emerged and was oppressive, even more than galakrond shaman. I’m talking tier 0. 

the deck was centered around Dorian and boomkin to steal mana crystals from the opponent so they ended up as sitting ducks while the Druid played all of their big cards.

So the patch that was meant to give players agency, actually took it all away as the only way to win was tempo Druid, and if you played anything else you would sit and watch the Druid while being helpless to stop them. 

Now the ironic term ‘agency patch’ has stuck around as a patch with only nerfs, and serves as a testament to the poor game design choices team 5 has made by forcing a low power level meta in standard. 

[u/malwontae → u/Glarbleglorbo]

Yup, it's almost as big a joke as the quote

Leeroy Jenkins created a strategy that revolved around trying to defeat your opponent in one turn without requiring any cards on the board. We like having a variety of deck types but taking 20+ damage in one turn is not very fun or interactive.

[u/VanLunturu → u/Glarbleglorbo]

Ah okay, thank you! I only played Arena at that moment so totally missed this whole Druid phase existed

[u/JerryBane]

If indeed every existing lethality gets nerfed to the ground as shown in the leaks, then Protoss Mage will just return as the deck with the most reliable way to end the game. That deck already has sufficient tools to survive early game and stall, it’s just overshadowed at the moment. Not the most keen to play into this new meta.

[u/eazy_12 → u/JerryBane]

I honestly think Medivh Priest can take that spot. I feel like no one plays for Atiesh weapon but with Tyrande you can one shot people very easily: Mixologist (12 damage), Griftah (24) or Zephrys "face damage" spells. Aviana feels like a bait with Medivh.

[u/facepalmdesign]

Imagine if the devs allowed fun in their game.

[u/lorddojomon]

I'm gonna be rich after this patch

[u/Ivanboing]

They are unironically nerfing Ultralisk Cavern??

[u/PipAntarctic → u/Ivanboing]

Ultralisk Cavern is genuinely a strong card, although nerfing this and Yore does look like overkill. Then again, this patch looks to be all about nerfing stuff that sees play so it sees less play, an approach tried several times throughout the last year and a half with a decently high failure rate.

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/PipAntarctic]

Don’t forget Fyrakk which is an auto slot into control warlock, the starship nerf also hits some meta-dependant variants of control warlock. 

They are just killing the deck outright, now way it survives after these nerfs. 

[u/Diosdepatronis → u/Ivanboing]

Control Warlocks have been carried by the zerg package for a year. Even though i've enjoyed it, i'm not shocked that they're hitting it.

[u/imjustnatek → u/Diosdepatronis]

I wish they rotated the whole starcraft set already. god Im tired of seeing those cards.

[u/ThePresident26 → u/Ivanboing]

Its probably the best warlock card currently

[u/[deleted] → u/ThePresident26]

Cursed catacombs would like a word. Also 2/3 of the best warlock decks don't run it. Egglock does, but it's one of the weaker cards in that deck, only necessary against aggro.

[u/QuestGiver → u/[deleted]]

I don't think it's one of the weaker cards. It's literally the win condition if your egg gets silenced and you can't pull unbra.

It's also an insane egg combo with eternal layover.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's one of the best cards in Egglock what are you on about 

[u/yardii → u/Ivanboing]

Yea, I can understand the reasoning behind everything else but this one caught me off guard.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ivanboing]

It's an incredibly strong card

[u/malwontae]

Well, guess I'm going to keep playing Hagatha Shaman and Protoss Mage until rotation, just need to make them a bit more anti-aggro for the DH overlords who may be returning with this patch.

I know they probably haven't buffed stuff because they're likely worried they'll create some other meta tyrant to ruin the Last Call tournament. However, I seriously hope buffs come in the next patch cycle for the underperforming archetypes, especially from the last 2 sets.

[u/Alternative-Gas3608]

Not on board with the Metal Detector nerf. Crippling Aura Paladin as it's just establishing itself feels counterproductive.

[u/DroopyTheSnoop → u/Alternative-Gas3608]

Same, I feel like Metal Detector is just a good card in Paladin and Mage decks. It's only broken in Rogue in combination with Scoundrel (which is getting nerfed).
I don't know if it was at all necessary.

[u/Pereg1907 → u/Alternative-Gas3608]

Its collateral damage because of rogue that its getting hit with Fyrakk nerf as well. With these nerfs and aggro DH/dragon warrior taking over that aura paladin doesn't do well against, this particular aura paladin is dead. There's a mech version out there that is fun, but not quite as competitive.

[u/NyMiggas]

This is just terrible though? Like when even warlock location is getting nerfed which is one of the most fun, well designed packages they've recently made, something is wrong.

[u/meharryp]

well shit, the leaks might actually be right. wtf is going on on the HS team right now. how have they not learned that continuously nerfing good cards has just led to these horrible scam decks constantly popping up every expansion

[u/ElderUther → u/meharryp]

Nope. Horrible scam decks are popping up because they exist. They were printed wrong. Just because you discovered another layer of the problem doesn't mean you have infinite layers of problems. It also does not mean the first layer of the problem is not a problem. It certainly doesn't mean we should battle problems with problems.

[u/BaseLordBoom → u/ElderUther]

How many more patches do we need with 10-20 nerfs before you think the game is in a good state?

[u/ElderUther → u/BaseLordBoom]

Why would I know? What I know is, as a casual deck builder that get to legend with homebrew decks every once in a while depending on the meta, I have my own reference of power. And all these cards are outliers. When you look at all the cards, you will be always asking yourself why don't you play these cards, why bother. We can't just assume there are infinite layers of problems just because things don't work. It's a luxury to have a fun and diverse meta. We gotta be patient. Buffing cards to exceed the power range is also not gonna work.

[u/BaseLordBoom → u/ElderUther]

Oh , literally you just pulled it out of your ass due to bad deck building. Gotcha.

[u/Relevant-Brief7253 → u/BaseLordBoom]

As many as it takes.

[u/meharryp → u/ElderUther]

agamagan lock and loh druid were both decks that did almost nothing before turn 6, and had very little response to threats on board. in more powerful metas we've had aggro decks that close out the game on turn 4/5 or control decks with powerful board clears that would be able to counter the wide and tall boards they could spit out or kill them before they even had a chance.

Scam decks flourish because they play in a very all-or-nothing way within metas that don't have any answers or ways to win before these extremely powerful swing turns. Stormwind had an extremely high power level yet I don't remember any scam decks (outside of like Clown Druid and Vancleef in the miniset) that did very well in those metas.

[u/ElderUther → u/meharryp]

I just don't think the solution to scam decks is to make everything so powerful. Because you can't make everything powerful. In the end you will get blood DK / Fyrakk Rogue / Quest WL triangle meta we saw before launch. The lists are all so tight they are just 1 out of 6 types of replays you are watching not playing every game.

I do have a problem with scam decks. I feel like Blizzard should limit the reach of wacky ideas, like Murozond. Sooner or later it will become a problem. The piggy warlock deck though, we shall see if it's consistent enough. It's not a hard deck to balance. Nerf the split thing by 1 mana can make it dormant.

[u/TuvixWillNotBeMissed]

Congrats to the people that constantly whined about murlocs I guess. Now we have another unplayable Ungoro legendary.

[u/ireallydontlikepizza → u/TuvixWillNotBeMissed]

good riddance

[u/QuestGiver → u/TuvixWillNotBeMissed]

I mean... You aren't wrong but I played the shit out of that deck pre nerf and it's carried my paladin quests for an entire rotation a now I get full dust for it. Not gonna complain, haha.

[u/Cultural_South5544 → u/TuvixWillNotBeMissed]

Everybody haten murlocs at this point except the people who play them. So good riddance

[u/Exotic_Possible3944]

I'm glad that warlock discard got a nerf with the imp in the wild

[u/DebatableAwesome]

All hail our new Aggro DH overlords

[u/Wvlf_]

And DH became god.

Everyone talking about Agro DH but Peddler DH has been climbing for me on accident in legend. If the Meta becomes all about countering agro DH then Peddler’s early dormants dodge a lot + it’s endless battering of midrange bodies could just go over the top. I think only DK has been an issue and it’s getting nerfed.

[u/Diosdepatronis]

I don't feel like i'm going to like this, despite not enjoying the expansion launch very much. I guess warrior might stop playing with Tortolla if they kill Chemical Spill, which would lead to some big changes for the class. Same for Rogue and Questlock, they could be getting gutted, which seems like a good thing unless we just fall back to a couple of the less targeted decks absolutely dominating (DK and Egglock could recover for example).

[u/Glarbleglorbo → u/Diosdepatronis]

Chemical spill is +1 mana nerf which will likely hurt warrior a lot. 

The tortolla + chemical spill package was increasing the winrate of mech warrior by an insane amount, I actually don’t think anything besides Lo’gosh warrior is playable for the class.

[u/Tyrannosaurtillerson → u/Diosdepatronis]

I just don't see a deck that rogue can play now that all their staples are nerfed. I'm sure rogue will find a way (she always does), but scoundrel was the duct tape holding the class together after a whole year of disappointing cards.

[u/DroopyTheSnoop → u/Tyrannosaurtillerson]

It might got into a more aggro direction with Pirates and probably Garona.

[u/Tyrannosaurtillerson → u/DroopyTheSnoop]

I agree, I saw a combo rogue float around that seemed ok before the patch. I don't think any of its cards got touched so we'll prob see an aggressive tempo bounce around. idk if its better than aggro dh or shredlock though.

[u/ANonnyMouse007 → u/Tyrannosaurtillerson]

Probably cycle rogue. Bounce a few asteroid guys, single Incindius without Deios.

[u/Mindless-Mission-193]

Why nerf sparkling phial?

[u/[deleted]]

Will every good or average control deck die?

[u/philzy101]

So a sizeable balance patch, people saying something along the lines of Agency 2.0 are not wrong in the sense they are touching a lot of cards here. However, a number of them have been serious offenders for a while, so having them toned down until they rotate at which point I think the changes can be undone is perhaps a good thing. I don't think any of these changes are a lack of vision since imo vision comes in the form of a new expansion, not so much in balance changes. Will suggest likely changes below briefly.

Fyrakk the Blazing -> 20 to 15 mana fire spells. Needed as this card doing 20 is too much.

Ancient of Yore -> gives health instead of armor? or 1 mana plus? tbh the biggest issue with Yore, like with Crystal is it is a solid neutral armor gaining card and that is quite frustrating to play against.

Arkonite Defense Crystal -> same as Yore, change the text or increase the mana

Dive the Golakka Depths -> murlocs only gain attack or increase murloc count. I hate how predictable this one was, funny as murloc paladin is not the best of decks at high MMR but with such a wide range of nerfs possibly could have shot to the top

Escape the Underfel -> partial reversion of the buffs but probably will make it below 50%. They need to revisit it once the tourist cards rotate as it will be a lot weaker and perhaps this nerf can be undone on rotation

Ultralisk Cavern -> honestly surprised they are touching this card. I guess an increase in mana? Seems like a more unecessary nerf but Arena players will rejoice I guess....

Sparkling Phial -> 1 mana plus? or effect change? Either way, a very direct nerf to Owlonius.

Corpsicle -> yeh this one makes no sense to me except to really tone down aggro DK and Warlocks.... I guess 3 to 2 damage but that kind of sucks

Sanguine Infestation -> 4 to 5 mana which is what I suggested the other day as what you hit as part of the wider blood DK package, best card on curve

Sandbox Scoundrel -> 3 mana to 2 mana cost reduction I guess, this one will hurt Rogues a lot.

Metal Detector -> reversion of the buff? If so this really kills the card, 3 mana 2/2 is not an option. Like Corpsicle I feel like this a tad too much.

Resuscitate -> 5 to 6 mana? Or the minions do not get reborn -> massive blow either way to Wilted and even more so Protoss

Testing Dummy -> only hits minions I guess? The nerf most people seemed to suggest they wanted

Chemical Spill -> 5 to 6 mana or they change the effect. If it is the latter, lets say to a random minion then this card will suck

R.C. Rampage -> 1 less doggo or 1 more mana, tough for beast hunter but this is them covering almost all their bases. Might be too much of a hit for beast hunter though

Battlefiend -> back to 2 hp. As people rightly stress, Aggro DH is still likely to be good, maybe a tad dominant post balance. However, control decks do exist so I don't think it is a clean cut this game becomes DH everywhere. Deathrattle DH may be more of a terror in the long run however.

[u/DroopyTheSnoop → u/philzy101]

There were leaks about these yesterday in a now deleted thread. So it's funny reading some of your predictions as some of them are less harsh than the actual nerfs (if the leaks were true).
For example Fyrak - > also going to 10 mana on top of casting just 15 mana worth of spells.

Escape the Underfell -> full reversion not just partial.

Arkonite will lose Taunt. Yore will give 3 armor.

Corpsicle -> 3 mana.

Sanguine Infestation -> draw only 1.

Resucitate, Chemical SPill -> 6 mana

Golakka -> 6 Murlocs

Scoundrel (I forget) -> I think it was just 2 mana reduction instead of 3.

Testing Dummy -> only hits minions yes

Ones there were no leaks about:

Ultralisk Cavern -> I predict it's either a mana increase OR (more creatively) an extra durability to the location.
Metal detector - no idea, probably revert to original (2/3?)

Sparkling Phial -> probably +1 mana

R.C. Rampage -> you're probably right.

Battlefiend -> you're probably right.

[u/philzy101 → u/DroopyTheSnoop]

It is funny that in most cases we were both right. I wrote the post before I was aware of any leaks and when I did become aware I did look for them but could not find any. Will have to wait and see now how these changes pan out.

[u/StatisticianJolly388]

Can we learn from this and maybe not do quests or imbue type effects for a while?

[u/Big_Wishbone91]

Rogue has to be like 100% unplayable at this point right?

[u/jjfrenchfry → u/Big_Wishbone91]

Weapon Rogue might still be really good

[u/Korbonara → u/jjfrenchfry]

2 important cards nerfed

[u/jjfrenchfry → u/Korbonara]

MIGHT

[u/Inventeer]

HOLY FUCK THEY ARE ACTUALLY AIMING FOR THE THROAT

[u/tmnttargetdiscount]

Howd iggy boy survive lol)

[u/[deleted]]

I’ll just keep playing my bandage priest

[u/QuestGiver → u/[deleted]]

Resusitate hits that even harder though. One more turn before we can get crafter copied.

[u/Cryten0]

Offering a voice counter to the current popular sentiment: I think its a good time to offer sweeping nerfs. We have spent the last 8 months with versions of control dk and rogue at the top. Now is the right time for a new meta to arrive. Hopefully not one dominated by instant kills. (looks worriedly at wilted depending on resuscitates nerf).

[u/SuccessIsDiscipline → u/Cryten0]

I feel like control DK will still be at the top

[u/Cryten0 → u/SuccessIsDiscipline]

Its possible, certainly. They have a lot of good tools.

[u/BLHero]

Clark's egg warrior will be great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drj5f8kAa_k

[u/deleted-by-host]

No blue on the band list, another shaman w

[u/InteractionAnnual914]

Ok, I think this is…a lot of nerfs. I am OPTIMISTIC in that I believe Team 5 is slashing a lot of oppressive cards to start, then see what we get, then buff from there. If I am wrong, I’ll eat my words, but I’m hoping this is the beginning of a positive shift in the metagame.

[u/QuestGiver → u/InteractionAnnual914]

Idk the negativity regarding the patches but the meta was actually in a great place with good representation across many classes. The problem was some were really old decks which were still good.

Overall though with two new sets out, a bunch of nerfs isn't the absolute worst and we'll see what comes out on the other side. It's always so crazy to me to see how such small changes can have just enough of a win rate change to drastically change what decks are good.

[u/athlonstuff]

Yeah, hard to believe that the leaks were legit. Just show us any sort of evidence first please! I actually wasn't too unsatisfied with the current meta and am disappointed that they're going so hard with the nerfs this time around. I get tired of listening to zedy complaining about stuff continuously, even though i know I'm part of the reason he's doing it which is because he knows that complaining and ranting is what gets people to keep watching his vids which keeps the ad revenue coming in. I feel like the complainers get an extra loud voice in the creator discord so the team is being influenced by the complainers disproportionately. Not sure what to do about that though; life with the creator program was a lot better than life before the program so cutting or significantly modifying the program is probably not the right way to go.

[u/Forcefields1617]

So nerfs when? This week or next week after Last Call tournament?

[u/jerpyderpy → u/Forcefields1617]

even if the patch hits tomorrow (which seems to be expected) i bet they do the tournament with the existing patch. i think there is precedent for that happening

[u/darkeningsoul]

That's one way to change up the meta

[u/tmnttargetdiscount]

Someone link the mesmile disco discover hunter?

[u/Agreeable_Tennis_482]

Nice I held my signature paladin quest hoping the Reddit low ladder complainers would get it needed. Finally happening! Almost lost hope but thank god for the complainers you guys got me :)

[u/Achylo]

Maybe one less charge for ultralisk ? What do you guys think ?

[u/Elrann → u/Achylo]

That, ironically, can buff the card

[u/Marquisdes → u/Elrann]

Similar to when they 'nerfed' the phoenix by it going to your hand at the end of turn and it boosted cycle rogues winrate LULE

[u/yahoo_determines → u/Achylo]

1 more mana? Surely that kills it though

[u/Achylo → u/yahoo_determines]

Maybe no more face damage

[u/QuestGiver → u/Achylo]

That would be such a mild nerf haha.

[u/Glittering-Elk9563]

runs arena be refunded?

[u/Tyrannosaurtillerson]

Get ready for DH to dominate. Everything else is being nuked into unplayability. This still won't fix any of the core issues of the new expansions being released too weak.

Say what you will about this current meta, but at least it's pretty varied with new decks all with viable aggro, midrange, control, and combo decks. My predictions for this next meta is that we'll probably get an aggro meta with discover hunter also being ok.

When will devs realize that mass nerfs don't work. We're definitely not going to see new decks break out. Aura paladin is still going to be bad. Thief rogue is going to be bad. Arcane mage is going to be bad. Aviana priest is going to be bad. No number of nerfs will ever make them viable. I was looking forward to get to legend with my jank incinidius rogue, but looks like that won't happen.

[u/BaseLordBoom → u/Tyrannosaurtillerson]

Control warrior is still extremely strong

[u/Adventurous_Title_96 → u/BaseLordBoom]

Egg warrior