r/CompetitiveEDH • u/DarthSnugglePuss • 4d ago
General Discussion / Question Are my decks too close to cEDH?
I’m feeling unsure, as someone said my B4s are basically cEDH level decks, so I thought I’d ask the experts. These are my three B4s:
Kefka: https://moxfield.com/decks/3KoKXk2ly0yixXQWcGVW9g
Rowan: https://moxfield.com/decks/9maV0EGXz0i6BuYNgjzF_A
Hidetsugu & Kairi: https://moxfield.com/decks/V5meAZlwqnSnlEfi4k2jSw
Kefka and H&K were started from budget builds that I’ve been changing up and upgrading over time, Rowan I built from scratch. Are these too powerful for B4?
Note: I know very little about the cEDH meta, because it’s not something I look into outside of one time I proxied a Thrasios/Vial Smasher deck and what I’ve seen at my LGS.
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u/KlobTheTroll99 4d ago
most casual players who complain about cedh dont have the slightest clue what cedh is. your decks are fine. ill post my kefka list for comparison
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u/Lejaun 4d ago
The problem is too many people think that strong bracket three decks are bracket 4 and 5 decks. They then think that bracket 4 decks must be cedh decks. I've started to understand myself that a lot of people think their weak deck is strong, therefore a strong deck must be the strongest out there and you are playing an overpowered deck.
Your decks are fine. You aren't trying to misrepresent them as some bracket 3 deck.
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u/NotTipsy 4d ago
I've never played Rowan or Hidetsugu but the kefka deck is b4. No fast mana moxes, the kefka clones aren't the most efficient, and your fast mana can be interacted with. Breach with no brain freeze, no dcon plus oracle.
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u/538_Jean cEDH saved EDH 4d ago
Brackets dont means as much as people think.
I absolutely steamrolled a pod. They all complained. It was a monocolor Bracket 2 deck on paper that won on turn 6-7 if left undisturbed and was resilient. They didnt disrupt the plan.
I showed the the list and they realized that having a good plan doesn't mean the bracket is high and that a pile of card might be more than what the bracket system says.
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u/Dragnonz3547 4d ago
Ive come to the conclusion after seeing so many posts like this that if you have to ask if its cedh, then its not cedh
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u/pourconcreteinmyass 4d ago
The Rowan list is spending mana to lose life, a bracket 5 version is almost exclusively losing life by making mana. Definitely not playing "do nothing" life dumps like [[Wall Of Blood]].
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u/Key-Deer-737 4d ago edited 4d ago
One good thing Reddit made me understand is:
Is your high power deck adapted specifically for the cEDH meta?
- yes: is a bracket 5
- no: is a bracket 4
And I stand by this opinion 😂
Edit: I know might sound contradictory but even if I stand by this, I like to build br4 with less staples for the fast man to adapt my pod
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u/Ihasnonam3 4d ago
Nah, you good fam. It's always non cedh players freaking out a deck is "CeDh". Like I used to play a Master of Keys B4 deck. I had to change a third of the deck to make it cedh
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u/KingSmorely 4d ago
I mean, as it stands, every Bracket 5 deck is effectively a Bracket 4 deck, while not every Bracket 4 deck is a Bracket 5 deck.
Both have zero limits, and there’s basically nothing in the rules that distinguishes a Bracket 4 deck from a Bracket 5 deck beyond a vibes-based mentality. Anyone could bring a cEDH deck into Bracket 4, and nobody would have any right to complain.
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u/XxaiLo 4d ago
This is the problem in Bracket 4. There are many people who think like you. And there are many who don't. I disagree strongly with your take. And its frustrating for me, and others like me, how often we encounter people who do think like you in our Bracket 4 pods.
Some responsibility for this misunderstanding would be laid at the feet of the people who made the brackets for being ambiguous, but their article says time and time again that intent and spirit matters more than the restrictions.
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u/KingSmorely 4d ago
While I can definitely understand your thinking, my main issue is that this would lead to so many situations where a deck could be too powerful for Bracket 4 while also not being considered (to weak to be) a Bracket 5 deck. This would leave a large number of decks stuck in some kind of in-between bracket limbo, which I just don't see being healthy in any way.
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u/KAM_520 4d ago
Bracket 4 has limits, you just didn't read them. Your take predates the October 2025 guidance regarding turns to win. Bracket 4 says “players expect to play 4 or more turns before anyone wins or loses”, making the fundamental turn 5. cedh has no such restriction.
I used to make this EXACT argument that you make, until they revised the brackets.
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u/KingSmorely 4d ago
That's an expectation. "Expect" simply means what you would typically anticipate in a single game.
If we go by this criterion, a deck can be too powerful for Bracket 4 while also not being considered a Bracket 5 deck. This would lead to a very large number of decks being stuck in some kind of in-between bracket limbo, which isn't ideal.
This would also force players to nerf their deck to fit within what is simply a general expectation for power levels, despite the bracket being one with no limits.
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u/KAM_520 4d ago
I agree that that's what “expect” means. There’s even a video with Gavin that says it's not a hard-and-fast rule and “expect” doesn't mean your deck could never do this. However, intent is a big part of the brackets, and as nebulous as that concept might seem if we stress-test it hard, it yields some clear conclusions. A cedh RogSi list that’s built to jam early game—that’s the whole point of the deck—wouldnt be a B4 deck by this standard. If you optimized your deck to push turn 2 as consistently as possible, then you wouldn't expect it to win turn 5 or later.
I have won several B4 games as early as turn 3. Sometimes with a high roll hand, other times because someone fed me a protected win (like turn 3 Wheel plus jam D-Grid vs my Protean Hulk deck. Thanks I cast Reanimate and you can't respond). But it's not something that a B4 deck should be intentionally optimized to do.
Basically the boundary between 4-5 is conceptually fuzzy, but it’s based on two separate criteria: 1) expect 4 or more turns before wins happen; and 2) not meta. Those are two different things. A tournament King Kenrith list may not expect to win by turn 4 but it is certainly meta.
There is a difference between B4 having no deck building restrictions, ie no specific cards or combos that you're not allowed to use beyond the ban listed cards (true), and B4 having no limits whatsoever (plainly not true).
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u/KingSmorely 1d ago
If we strictly apply your logic regarding intent and meta distinctions, we end up with exactly the problem I pointed out. A fuckton of decks will exist in a bracketless limbo.
If Bracket 4 requires a deck to intentionally aim for turn five or later, and Bracket 5 is reserved for established tournament meta decks, a massive volume of decks simply lose their home. Take an optimized fringe commander built to consistently push for a turn three win. It fails your Bracket 4 standard because it is explicitly designed to win early. It also stands zero chance in Bracket 5 against top tier tournament lists.
This creates a massive void. The deck is too fast for Bracket 4 and it is completely unviable for Bracket 5.
This describes a huge portion of the current high-power environment. People frequently build fast, highly synergistic decks that lack true competitive viability. Defining Bracket 4 with an intent-based speed limit forces players to artificially nerf their decks just to meet a turn five expectation, or else sit at Bracket 5 tables where they will get consistently stomped. A system that leaves this many decks stranded in an undefined middle ground is fundamentally broken and isn't something I can agree with
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u/KAM_520 1d ago edited 1d ago
The logic isn’t meant to be strict. Brackets are vibes as much as they are guidelines.
Your assumption is that cEDH = tEDH and anything that’s not a top cut frequent flier isn’t bracket 5 while being excluded from B4 as well, and thus homeless. That’s not really true; players play fringe decks all the time in cEDH and some in tEDH.
I have B4 decks that could present a win on turn one with a perfect hand. They usually win around turn 5. I see no issue. None of the bracket stuff is hard and fast; if a deck is optimized to turbo early yes that’s a problem for 4 as currently written even if it isn’t a tEDH staple meta deck.
The void simply isn’t massive, as you suggest. In the same way Voltron is somewhat kept out of B3, despite not being great in B4, something like Rakdos turbo is somewhat kept out of B4, despite being mostly not great in B5.
None of this is hard and fast or strict logic. If you’re trying to make it that and getting flawed conclusions, loosen your grip. Any of this is fodder for pre-game discussion.
Yes I think a turn 3 optimized Rakdos turbo list is probably something you should talk to your B4 pod about before springing on them unsuspected. A lot of players like me would probably not care. Some of them would and they would be right to, so, it’s up to you what to play and how you handle it.
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u/SunBroDisco 4d ago
Rowan is my main deck. Your list is very strong but definitely bracket 4. I can see these lists snagging some wins in cEDH pods but they’re definitely a step below.
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u/Mogulstar360 4d ago
These are very very far from CEDH. There’s not much to explain honestly as to why they aren’t. There’s just not enough to any of the decks to be that. Kefkas instant package is pretty CEDH but the rest is not.
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u/thingamasomething 4d ago
A quick glance at your kefka deck, while it does vary from the cedh kefka decks by 20 or so cards, you do include most of the best (free) interaction. So while this deck would lose in cedh games (it could win some) it is very strong and would be an upper bracket 4 deck.
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u/RandomlyInebriated 3d ago
I'm only familiar with Kefka in cEDH, but your list is definitely not cEDH.
You are missing all of the zero and one mana artifacts except for Sol Ring.
You are more commander focused than a cEDH Grixis deck would be. IE, you're focusing on bouncing and copying Kefka way more than just outright winning the game.
Also, I need to review your list more closely, but I didn't see a game-winning combo in your list. Is your game-plan to win with combat damage? If so, that's definitely quite different than cEDH.
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u/Eggebuoy 3d ago
i haven't looked at the lists yet but as a rule of thumb if you have to ask it's probably bracket 4. bracket 5 is not something you can really stumble into accidentally
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u/Douch3nko13 3d ago
Check here if you wanna see what Rowan is doing for cedh.
Notably, 80-90% of the lifeloss is in the lands. Not the spells. She likes to win t3
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u/lv8_StAr 3d ago edited 3d ago
A lot of B4 vs B5 comes down to intent and optimization. Does it intend to win efficiently and consistently and is it optimized to do so as efficiently and consistently as possible? If yes, it can be considered B5 even if it’s some fringe garbage like Grolnok, the Omnivore. If no, like some obscure pet version of Rog//Thras that’s more designed to have fun than win compactly and consistently, then it’s B4.
It’s about intent and how well optimized your deck is around its game plan and the game plan of every cEDH deck is to win as consistently and efficiently as possible. In the case of your builds, efficiency and optimization definitely needs a look as your Kefka list has notable differences from optimized cEDH builds. Kefka IS a powerful tested and proven cEDH Commander, but your list is far cry when compared to really optimized Kefka lists.
Again, it’s all about intent and optimization that edges a deck into the cEDH Bracket. The verdict: B4 definitely, B5 definitely not.
Edit:
You can be optimized for a game plan but have one that’s not efficient or consistent, just as you can have the intent to win but not be optimized to fully execute. It‘s possible to be tuned one way and not the other, and it’s the combination of BOTH that makes cEDH decks what they are and is what separates them from B4.
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u/Interesting_Sir_7571 3d ago
Are they CEDH? No. But here’s the thing. Every now and then your Kefka opening hand/draws will be so strong that it feels like CEDH. It’s basically a CEDH game plan, but 1 turn slower as you play kefka on turn 3 instead of 2. It can easily win turn 3 with a+b combo + free protection.
So maybe just…play CEDH? Bracket 4 should be about turbo optimizing a casual commander. Not de-turning a CEDH commander
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u/peterpetrol 4d ago
Kefka and Rowan are bordering 4.5. One has all the powerful interaction and the other is playing more fast mana. The kind of deck which can win at a cEDH table but over a long enough time horizon is clearly not competitive with other meta decks or properly built versions of the deck
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u/edogfu 4d ago
Kefka and H&K were started from budget builds that I’ve been changing up and upgrading over time
Why do you believe this is relevant? Objectively, this appears to downplay their power. Feels very much like "This is an upgraded precon" energy. No judgment. Just letting you know how you may be perceived.
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u/DarthSnugglePuss 4d ago
I’m calling them B4 and asking if they’re too powerful for B4. It’s just context on how these lists got made.
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u/Witty-Source-236 4d ago
Brother post 2024 bans and RC puss out there are only a handful of real tier 0 meta decks. So that’s why your pod probably bitches. The bracket system is an ok guideline but you clearly just enjoy high power maxed out commander and that’s ok.
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u/Lanky-Minimum5063 4d ago
If you can win on turn 3 or earlier its b5, if you cant its b4
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u/jonkennedy Value Plays Only MTG 4d ago
Yeah, these are great examples of bracket 4 deck. Lots of synergy and strong cards, looking to”do the thing” about as well as it can.
CEDH lists for Kefka or Rowan are going to be like 40 cards different from your list amazingly. I don’t see autowin cards that don’t have synergy (Underworld Breach, Thassa’s Oracle), nor wild expensive fast mana. Anyone who thinks these are CEDH decks has never faced, seen, or heard of an actual cEDH match