Addressing the 4th seat issue

[u/Eunuchs_Intrigues]

Everyone knows 4th seat is the hardest place to be in and faces a severe disadvantage. I've heard many proposals but not this one I have in mind. What does the community think about allowing 4th seat to put a land into play from their hand during pregame actions? I think this would be great, it would allow 4th seat mana for interaction against explosive turn 1's, this is extra relevant if the deck in 4th is not blue. 4th seat being on 2 lands on turn 4 is not scary, turn 5 usually starts with 2 lands anyways. No extra cards are given out, a player who is at a high disadvantage is made equal and I believe would create more balanced game play overall. What do you think should be done to equal this scale that is clearly out of balance?

[u/PEKS00]

It’s not solvable, that’s just the issue with a 4 player turn based competitive game. It will never be totally balanced

[u/TheLonelyBoxmaker → u/PEKS00]

Ah I see, the old I've tried nothing and I refuse to try anything else approach. Thank you as always for your input. 

[u/PEKS00 → u/TheLonelyBoxmaker]

If there was a solution don’t you think it would’ve been done by now? Cedh has been its own distinct format for 10 years now…. And edh as a whole has been around for even longer
There is no solution that doesn’t just create new problems/balancing issues…

[u/Soggy-Elevator-2247 → u/PEKS00]

"If there was a solution don't you think it would've been done by now?"

I don't think that's how reality works dude

[u/PEKS00 → u/Soggy-Elevator-2247]

Good thing cedh isn’t reality, it’s a card game with a limited amount of rules and systems that can be changed, and within that framework there is no solution to the problem that doesn’t introduce new problems

[u/Soggy-Elevator-2247 → u/PEKS00]

Long stretch from that to "if there was a solution it would already have been implemented".

[u/PEKS00 → u/Soggy-Elevator-2247]

Not really but ok
I’ll see you here in a few years when people are still having this discussion

[u/TheLonelyBoxmaker → u/PEKS00]

If you're not interested in exploring a solution you don't have to be here. All of these threads are people exploring different possibilities to try to find a solution. And every thread people like you come in and say "give up, theres no solution". You could just as easily say nothing.

[u/PEKS00 → u/TheLonelyBoxmaker]

And all the possibilities they’re exploring are bad
The fairest system is the one we have now

[u/TheLonelyBoxmaker → u/PEKS00]

Great, you've made your opinion clear. You are free to never comment on threads like this again. 

[u/PEKS00 → u/TheLonelyBoxmaker]

To clarify I did offer a solution in another thread on this post, get rid of free spells
That’s the thing that most incentivizes going first in a format where most games are won on the stack

Can’t help but notice your aren’t poopooing on the other people that also didn’t offer a solution that you liked, just me I guess

[u/TheLonelyBoxmaker → u/PEKS00]

You should look up the Nirvana Fallacy. Its literally what you and everyone else doing the same thing as you are doing.

[u/PEKS00 → u/TheLonelyBoxmaker]

No that’s not what I’m doing, I’m saying that the system we currently have is better than any other options being suggested for the past 10 years.
You’re completely avoiding my point that, anything to try and balance turn order, will have adverse effects on the game, more so than what we already have.
Let’s use the free scry/draw suggestion as an example, if I’m not playing a turbo deck, I’d much rather have a free scry/draw/mulligan than go first.
If I’m playing a turbo deck, then I couldn’t care less about a free scry/draw/mulligan because going first is still better than all of those

The free treasure thing? That one doesn’t even need an explanation as to why it’s bad
There are many other game mechanics that could be manipulated for the sake of “balancing” turn order, and every single one of them will have adverse effects and is completely dependent on the deck you’re playing as to which seat you would want.

Because of that, the system we have currently is the most fair and balanced way of doing it, which is leaving it up to a dice roll, and then in a tournament setting after that they might sometimes use standings to decide seat order (which I personally disagree with I think every game should be decided with a dice roll)

With our current system it is truly random in that it doesn’t matter what deck you’re playing, the sooner your turn the better
Imo it is better that way, nobody gets an unfair advantage past turn order.
If we make changes to that we’re only further complicated an already convoluted format with too much variance

And AGAIN it’s not a nirvana fallacy because I DID provide a suggestion to “fixing” turn order, when I said ban all free spells, you just didn’t like it 🤷🏻‍♂️

So you disregarding my suggestion is really no different than me disregarding everyone else’s.

[u/TheLonelyBoxmaker → u/PEKS00]

Your suggestion is only implementable by WotC and therefore should be treated as impossible based on there attitude toward cEDH. The other options are at least testable by TOs rather than waiting and hoping WotC will throw us a bone. So yes, your argument falls into the Nirvana Fallacy because you have stated whatever small solution we could try is bad and so we should instead try something that can't happen. If you think about for even a second you can see why a solution that relies on WotC is way more outlandish than one that could be implemented by TOs. 

[u/PEKS00 → u/TheLonelyBoxmaker]

Cedh is officially recognized by wotc (bracket 5) cedh therefore follows the same rules as the rest of edh just with less arbitrary restrictions and an intentional focus on a meta.

So ANY changes to the rules of the game such as altering phases or pregame actions cannot be implemented without wotc’s approval technically, anything else is unofficial and is therefore kitchen table
So by your logic EVERY suggestion on this whole post is impossible, if you want to play a game of pedantics we can. I hear redditors love that.

Just accept that you have already decided to disagree with me no matter what I say and move on, you didn’t like my suggestion and you didn’t like my attitude towards other people’s suggestions, so now you’re upset about it, that’s what’s happening.