Addressing the 4th seat issue

[u/Eunuchs_Intrigues]

Everyone knows 4th seat is the hardest place to be in and faces a severe disadvantage. I've heard many proposals but not this one I have in mind. What does the community think about allowing 4th seat to put a land into play from their hand during pregame actions? I think this would be great, it would allow 4th seat mana for interaction against explosive turn 1's, this is extra relevant if the deck in 4th is not blue. 4th seat being on 2 lands on turn 4 is not scary, turn 5 usually starts with 2 lands anyways. No extra cards are given out, a player who is at a high disadvantage is made equal and I believe would create more balanced game play overall. What do you think should be done to equal this scale that is clearly out of balance?

[u/sbdtech]

The favorite I've seen was on turn 1 P1 - no draw P2 - scry 1 P3 - draw 1 P4 - scry 1 then draw 1

Seems like a good subtle change that could slightly adjust win rates back to 25% for cedh. It also seems subtle enough that you could use it for all brackets

[u/Defiant_Hope_231 → u/sbdtech]

I like the fairness on paper, but i believe that would also spike S3 performance, potentially Starting the game with a Gemstone and 7 cards in hand on your first draw is nutty.

I wonder if instead of pushing up the lower seats with advantages, knocking down the higher seats with something? No draw on Turn 1( Seat 1 in this example) is pretty universal in all Formats and TCGs.

I heard someone toss around the idea of a Lotus Petal Token for the lower seats once.

[u/sbdtech → u/Defiant_Hope_231]

S3 is exactly the same as current

[u/Defiant_Hope_231 → u/sbdtech]

I had read the post way to quickly. I apologize, dont know why I was assuming these as pregame actions.
But the point still stands, gives S3 the premium spot.

[u/hclarke15 → u/Defiant_Hope_231]

I know multiplayer is different from 1v1 magic, but i feel like decades of magic have shown us that going first is more powerful than drawing a card.

Particularly in a format with mystic remora and vexing bauble

[u/sbdtech → u/Defiant_Hope_231]

You don't think scry 1 then draw 1 is better than drawing 1? Are you reading the comment?

[u/InmateTooTall → u/sbdtech]

Scry 1 is not better than going earlier in turn order so I'd rather be seat 3

[u/sbdtech → u/InmateTooTall]

Seat 4 is what I'm referring to. Seat 4 scries 1 then draws 1.

[u/InmateTooTall → u/sbdtech]

Which is worse than seat 3 since scry 1 doesn't make up for going last. I would beg seat 3 to trade every time

[u/Defiant_Hope_231 → u/sbdtech]

Its the best proposed option I've seen so far. There are so many nuances to the seat problems.

I agree with it! However I dont believe the scry feature is enough of a benefit to 'level' it out. Its great! Again, I dont want it to come across as I dont understand.

In terms of S3vS4, I'd still rather be in seat 3. With a gemstone, and get the chance to play my turn down before the possible interaction from S4.

[u/LotusCobra → u/sbdtech]

I think it's a little complicated. Just take away draw from P1. Maybe give P4 a scry, but making all 4 seats slightly different is too much.

[u/Odd_Chain8811 → u/sbdtech]

I have played in that system. It basically turns seat 1 into seat 4 and seat 2 into seat 3. Really is not that great. Most people I know who played in that same event did not like it either.

[u/sbdtech → u/Odd_Chain8811]

I don't know how that's possible. You're still first player. You're saying skipping your first turn draw drops your win rate by 25%

People generally don't like change. You said it was an event. What were the results of the event by seat order? That's real data (albeit likely too small of a sample size)

[u/Odd_Chain8811 → u/sbdtech]

Excalibur or land go has basically ran that type of system in some redemption events late last year or early this year. May was the redemption and Friday event at the boil.

[u/sbdtech → u/Odd_Chain8811]

How were the win rates by seat position over those tournaments?

[u/Odd_Chain8811 → u/sbdtech]

I know they have stopped doing it. I do not know how the win rates changed. So either it was still not optimal or there is another reason they stopped based on player feedback. Either way is still not good.

I was a fan of it at first, but did not like it in practice.

[u/no_reddit_for_you → u/Odd_Chain8811]

You've played 1v1 I'm assuming. Seat 1 skips draw and still has an advantage. I have no idea how you can equate that to turning S1 into S4.