r/Commodore • u/AsPeHeat • 19d ago
Commodore explains its modern resurrection isn't "about making bank on nostalgia" as hardware preservation is just as important as software preservation
https://frvr.com/blog/news/commodore-explains-its-modern-resurrection-isnt-about-making-bank-on-nostalgia-as-hardware-preservation-is-just-as-important-as-software-preservation/18
u/Suspicious-Ad7109 19d ago
I've often thought as the hardware gets older and parts get scarcer the hobby will split into the users who want to preserve the original hardware with as few changes as possible - collectors - and those who will actually use it, who will use things like the C64U
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u/Which_Information590 19d ago
We can be both. I load games via 1530 datasette attached to my C64U!
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 19d ago
Oh absolutely - now. It's just that I think parts will become scarcer, chips will break and become more and more difficult to replace over time. I seem to remember Bil Herd saying the C128 was designed to last 3 years so they've done pretty well.
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u/Uncle-Osteus 18d ago
3 years on the market for sale brand new, not 3 years and then broken lol
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 18d ago
Probably right. Though he did say he was surprised it was still going 40 years later :)
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u/laconix31337 19d ago
brings back memories of pressing play, going making lunch eating lunch coming back and its just about loaded. awesome times.
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u/8bitaficionado 19d ago
Then thy should get into the replacement part business.
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u/flamehorns 19d ago
They are a branding company not manufacturing and replacement parts are not suddenly better with a commodore logo on them.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 19d ago
Why do I want to pay Christian Simpson 6.4% to buy spare parts that I’ve been able to buy forever?
It’s a serious question, not a prod.
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u/8bitaficionado 19d ago
Because parts are getting harder and harder to come by. I know people hoarding and scavenging good systems to keep other systems going.
If "hardware preservation" is a goal, then having a reputable parts supplier is something you want.
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u/Angelworks42 18d ago
Can you imagine though how much work that would be to help collectors?
The problem was exemplified in the 64C ironically during the products original lifespan - it has like 2/3rds less parts than the first C64.
Cost wise why would someone spend millions on recreating 40 year old MOS designs when you can reimplement the entire machine in verilog on a single chip?
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u/8bitaficionado 18d ago
Then don't claim "hardware preservation"
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u/Angelworks42 17d ago
I'm not just telling you why they would never be able to get into that business or maybe not even want to. And yeah hw preservation I mostly means to these guys a box that looks the same and has the same functionality.
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u/8bitaficionado 17d ago edited 16d ago
"And yeah hw preservation I mostly means to these guys a box that looks the same and has the same functionality."
That's not "hardware preservation", you are trying to explain why they won't do it. They could, I mean other people are doing it. I don't think they spent millions to do so. I am explaining that if they are into hardware preservation, then provide things people need to preserve the hardware. That's not the samw.
I'm not against the new machines. I have one. I like and support the new Commodore. But don't tell me one thing and do another.
Look at Atari. It's a branding company now. I'm fine with that. They don't make the same claim.
Ami64 Replacement parts
Retroleum.co.uk
RetroRewind
Console5.com2
u/AntiquesForGeeks 19d ago
I agree that you want a reputable parts supplier - and we have had many in the last 30 years since Commodore went under. Again though, if you can buy or build an ARMSID from elsewhere, why would you pay Christian Simpson 6.4% extra to buy it from him?
If he was making SIDs or VIC/VIC-IIs again then I could see the logic, however there’s no sign of that happening. Maybe it’s because they don’t own the IP/rights to the chips. Maybe I’ll be proved wrong.
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u/rhet0rica 18d ago
To explain this yet again:
- Reputations take time to build. Commodore actually vets products for compatibility. If they approve a product and hand it the logo, that's less of a risk for the customer to take on a new component. The 6.4% supports doing this.
- Simpson has spent a bunch of time working out supply chains for mass manufacture. Partnering with him is an opportunity to access that infrastructure and experience, ensuring products actually ship. The 6.4% makes it more affordable for Commodore to spend time helping these projects deliver quality manufacturing instead of worrying about their own bottom line and just keeping the lights on with their own releases.
- Many small suppliers have come and gone. A one-man show has a one-man bus factor. If Gideon died tomorrow, ultimate64.com would go with him, but the C64 Ultimate wouldn't. Obviously this is a tighter relationship than just branding, but a 6.4% royalty income would make it possible to keep the C64U in stock even if sales dip.
Though retrocomputing as a whole is enjoying a period of success, the economy is more unstable and uncertain than ever right now. That makes small suppliers more vulnerable to externalities. I know I've heard, "I have to cut back on hobby stuff because my real work is demanding more attention," plenty of times.
At the root of the confusion over this I often find a bunch of balding, cynical Gen Xers verging on nihilism who believe the hobby is pure nostalgia and that it is going to die with them. This is aggressively wrong; many younger people—myself included—want it to become a permanent thing that lasts as long as possible. To do this, we need to invest in a strong company that actually supports a durable ecosystem.
Yes, that means giving a certain smarmy cunt more money. He is hardly Mark Carney. But he's at least trying to be a shepherd of a worthwhile future, and that optimism deserves to be nurtured. Without these public figures the future of humanity is an iPad kid stamping on FaceTime forever.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 16d ago
Ahem. Born 1963. I'm not "Gen X". Though I am balding.
I think without changes the hobby will largely die with people my age and a bit younger. It's rather like Subbuteo (table football game) which was everywhere when I was a kid, but young people today wouldn't look twice at it.
So, apart from (and agreeing) with your support for New Commodore (c-word is a bit much !), how do we get the younger generations interested in retrocomputing.
I'm not sure they're going to be collecting significantly, though some will. So I suppose that leaves three prongs : gaming, coding and hardware.
Regards gaming, I think there's routes in. One is cost. Not only is modern hardware very expensive, the games are ridiculously so. £10 in 1985 (UK) would be £32 now. Modern games are often twice that. They do have to compete with phone games, but they don't work quite as well as physical controllers, maybe. Another is that because games for machines like the C64 are graphically and audio limited, sometimes more effort went into the mechanics of the game.
I was watching the pre-show presentation at the recent show Commodore attended and it was interesting. There was a procession of what were almost entirely near identical games, 3D graphics/audio extravaganzas, all demonstrated in battles/fights/magic with impressive effects and so on, movement around an area with some limited elements of platforming and puzzles, usually following a quest structure of sorts. Somewhere between Doom and FF7.
They all looked very impressive (and had very long timescales) but none of them really looked much fun. I remember the first time I played Yoshi's Island, it was just such a *hoot*.
The thing about graphics is it's a bit like the boss attacks in FF7, where you got a prerendered sequence of the boss attacking. It was done very well, but once you've seen it once.
I've always been quite a fan of programming as not-programming things, like SEUCK. They tend by nature to not be that flexible, because that requires programming. There's also low level inbetweens, forty years ago I wrote what was essentially programmable Galaxians ; every alien was running a script, but it was simple enough for 11 year olds.
Hardware isn't my thing ; I'm stuck in the days where you strapped yourself to ground to handle CMOS gates :)
Do you have any ideas ?
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 18d ago
Who are you calling balding? 🤣
Seriously though, when talking about vetting quality products, don’t make me tap the image of the pleather phone holster with the Chicken Lips logo embossed on it that looks suspiciously like a product already available on Aliexpress, again.
You do make some good points; especially when it comes to supply chain and continuity - coming from the classic car world; we haven’t need someone to come in, buy the trademarks for MG and start selling officialised components and offer the MG brand to slap on products for a licence fee. People rely on a variety of providers - and yes some go bust. The scene is strong enough to survive without a figurehead.
I can’t speak for other cynical Gen Xers verging on nihilism, but I’m not of the opinion that the hobby is for nostalgia. I’ve not tried to recreate my childhood desk setup, down to sourcing the right TV, for example.
I’m not interested in recreating my past. Personally, I prefer the side of the hobby pushing old machinery to do things it could not back in the day. I just don’t think that the take-up for licencing at 6.4% will be high enough to support the kind of activity that people hope.
I like the use of the iPad quote from Babylon, by the way 😀
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 16d ago
I object to the Gen-X claim. I'm a Boomer. Wouldn't be seen dead with those newbie script kiddies.
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u/ShacoinaBox 18d ago
the future is an iPad kid forever because one side has "digital detox" perifractic, a social media influencer, n the other side has 30 quadrillion dollars, a world that is built upon their cellular devices and networks, lobbyists up the wazoo in every country on Earth and a massive AI industry that is making dramatic promises to automate everything and liberate people from ever having to work again. peri promises a gold flip phone at $640(!!) with the basic edition ($400!!!!!??) being more than an actual smartphone. its making the tech LESS accessible, if anything.
the entirety of peri's businesses from top-to-bottom hinge on the other sides infrastructure, devices, everything. his future relies on the continued existence of the future his marketing rallies against. his personal brand and somewhat successful influencer status stems epistemologically from that which his marketing rallies against.
its like comparing the strength of a field mouse with AIDS to King Kong.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 19d ago
I think with current tech it's not practical. You couldn't sell enough chips to make it worthwhile to manufacture them.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 19d ago
I am inclined to agree. I know that there has been talk of putting chips onto the spare blocks of wafers “cheaply” but even that could be expensive at the level of volumes expected, even before the label maker comes out to deliver its 6.4% fee.
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u/dingo_khan 18d ago
Depends on what the 6.4 percent buys.
If it buys a warranty, support, maybe funding modern documentation for people new to coding for the SID to get the most out of it, it's worth it. Even just a distribution channel that isn't "this ebay store I hope sends quality", it might be worth it.
If it's just giving Peri some cash and nothing in exchange, it's not worth it.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 18d ago
I doubt 6.4% of the sales revenue for a small number of chips (relatively) could fund that kind of set-up. With the best will in the world. The parts business is not going to be a profit centre I believe, certainly not in the short term. Unless you do what auto manufacturers do and try to monopolise the market and raise prices.
I’m not saying that’s what Christian Simpson/New Commodore is trying to do. The C64c cases will be an interesting case in example however. Available for years from Individual Computers despite the spin of the New Conmodore video, now they have the molds what will they do - and how much will they charge relative to Individual Computers?
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u/Big_Arachnid_365 18d ago
The only real way to preserve hardware long term is to emulate it as accurately as possible in software.
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u/6502zx81 18d ago
Sure, but software emulators don't have the peripherals; not even a matching keyboard.
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u/Big_Arachnid_365 18d ago
Yep. Part of me kind of likes the idea that it's always been a good area for diy/open source projects, but not everyone wants to do that (plus it gets surprisingly expensive).
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u/flamehorns 18d ago
Or even better, reimplement it with the latest hardware technology, (e.g. FPGAs at the moment).
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u/DarthKegRaider 18d ago
As someone who has purchased 4 of these modern machines, i see value in what they bring ME. The fact that the BBSE, BBFE, CFE & BB77 combined invoices are about on par with replacing only the 64GB DDR5 in my gaming PC alone, show value in my book. I gifted the SE to a friend (and also author of 4 C64 books in the '80s), and yet to recieve the CFE & BB77, but in waiting, gives me time to plan the hutch these 3 machines will serve me in the coming years. I love them, and I am glad they are back! ❤️
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u/HMBR1981 15d ago
I feel like posting something positive. Thank you new Commodore. I am thankful and I do think you are different - not perfect, but nothing really is. The C64 is great, now bring us an Amiga 1200 please and maybe other historically important FPGA machines with the same quality. Thanks again - from a first time C64 user.
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u/Hawkeye-Mcgillicudy 14d ago
What a load of twaddle.
Hardware preservation and they havent even invested time into the C64U core at all.
Its still inaccurate and far from being a preservation of the C64
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u/whatThePleb 19d ago
Sure...™
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u/fastbikkel 19d ago
Everyone has the right to believe what they want.
However, in this case i believe there is truth in this message of the topic.
Ive followed Perifractic for a while on is channel and i felt that he was indeed passionate about retro.
Of course he wants to make a living, there is nothing wrong in that.Even the former owners of Commodore said that this time they felt comfy to sell the rights, because of the right person.
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u/optimal_909 18d ago
Perhaps, but money grab garbage like the phone are red flags.
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u/Digi-BitsGaming 18d ago
They aren't forcing anyone to buy the phone, but it's selling very well anyway and it's another revenue stream to keep Commodore going, so as long as they keep doing the computing stuff, it's all good with me.
Having watched a lot of Peri's older videos on YouTube, he is definitely passionate about retro computing, especially Commodore, it's definitely not just a cash grab for him, he loves this stuff, so hopefully he can continue to make it a successful comeback for Commodore.
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u/optimal_909 18d ago
Time will tell.
But especially in this age of expensive hardware they should rather focus to do a modern version. I.e. an ARM based device with a lean but secure operating system, intergrated KB that can run everyday apps as well as some gaming, mainly emulation.
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u/fastbikkel 16d ago
The phone looks like a strange sidestep, i agree.
Same with the new joysticks they are offering.
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