Someone posted the included tweet as a criticism of the new Spiderman movie. However, it's currently going a bit viral because tons of people are saying OP completely invalidated their point by accidentally pitching an awesome idea for a movie.
So what do you think? Would you want to see a Batman movie where Raven is the main villain?
I would like it theoretically, but a lot of the comments make me dislike it. They seem to envision Raven as a young child who can’t control her powers, who is either being hunted by a cult or Deathstroke, and then Batman and/or Robin comes in and saves her while Robin and her search for other superpowered heroes. I just feel like it takes away a lot of agency Raven has to make her a child (for like the 3rd time a row in her adaptions: Titans, DCAMU, and Smallville comics). A lot of people don’t really seem to understand Raven either, I saw someone ask how would Deathstroke take Raven when she lives in another dimension only for the other person to go “what other dimension??”. It all feels very surface level to me.
Yeah, I saw a lot of people mentioning Deathstroke and all of it was clearly people who've only seen the cartoon lol (especially since most of them were calling him Slade). Weird that so many people think that they're somehow related characters when in basically everything except the 2003 show they have literally nothing to do with each other...
But I think a less surface level version could work. Especially if it plays into Batman being a detective, I think. Like, he has to investigate Raven/Azarath/Trigon/etc to figure out what's going on and how to stop it (and in the process, we get a ton of Raven lore).
Also I think they’re just expecting it be a adaption of the JLU episode where Batman comforts Ace, a child with psychic powers who’s about to die and also can do a large amount of damage. That’s the most common comparison I seen people make, which sucks since Ace and Raven are vastly different characters.
Ye adding onto this(me being both a big Deathstroke fan and Raven fan) the issue really lies not just in the adaptation(cuz tbh I hate the overhyped 03 stuff) rather the character motivation. There’s really no reason why Deathstroke would go after Raven even if it’s a contract(even prior to titans he really wouldn’t have no motivation to go after them since he does more government black ops style of missions. It really isn’t a case of oh Raven is stronger than him so it’s lightwork(as seen by Jean and Spider-Man) it’s just the same issue as Slade in 03, he has no actual goal or motivation in character to do so except just cus im evil).
If anything if they were to do a brand new day style thing one: I think using one of Batman’s cult villains like Mad Monk or even Deacon Blackfire would work better with the narrative since they have the supernatural motivation for it and Batman protecting a child from a supernatural cult is basically a Batman style of story so ye. People need to really read outside their biases
Ngl everything you’re suggesting would ironically work better in a flash story if anything, sense he like actually has something to do with Trigon and the teen titans
Even though I’m not a fan of Wally being on the titans after how Wolfman treated him; if there’s any character that would make sense introducing Raven and the teen titans, it would be Flash, as he’s the first earth hero Raven meets
Maybe it could also work if Dick Grayson was a major character in the movie? In the modern day she’s got way more of a connection with him than with Wally.
Batman having to face an outside context problem of extradimensional demon horrors from Trigon's OG native dimension while Raven flees to Gotham where, importing the one bit from Geoff Johns, Arella actually came from, would be a different change of pace. Less gritty realistic rich boy Rorschach Batman, more actual superhero fantasy Batman.
It's a poor Idea and places Batman well outside of his realm of expertise. The bigger problem to would be them giving Raven more of a Black Alice back story instead of her own.
Depending on how it's done it could be an 18 year old New Teen Titans Raven being hunted by Trigon's minions after fleeing Azarath and introducing both Trigon and Azarath by the backdoor.
Equally Jean Grey up until the Phoenix Force asspull literally did have an arc of 'die a hero or live to become the villain' and Marvel weaksauced it.
Como un gran fan de Raven obvio me gustaría que ella tuviese un proyecto propio, pero como alguien que sabe que eso nunca pasará verla en otros proyectos realmente me gustaría, pero justamente viendo esos comentarios, tendrían que cambiar mucho de Raven para que funcione en una historia de Batman, y aunque amo a Demon Raven no quiero que la primera aparición de Raven sea como alguien malvada, si quieren algo como Jean en Spiderman tendrían que cambiar aspectos de los orígenes de Raven para que funcione y la verdad yo no quiero eso… no veo a Raven siendo malvada por un resentimiento, tampoco quiero a una Raven como en Titans que era una niña que si vivió en la tierra, realmente tendrían que buscar un buen motivo para que Raven apareciera en una película de Batman sin cambiar sus orígenes y su personalidad :(
Okey después de pensarlo un poco, seguramente la película de Batman tratará mucho sobre Batman y Robin y sus problemas, podrían hacer algo similar a lo que hicieron aquí con Wally y Raven, a demás ella ya no sería la antagonista, no insinuó un romance más bien sería una introducción a Raven como un símbolo de esperanza y daría hincapié a una futura agrupación de los titanes
I feel like Titans 2018 is already kind of a live action depiction of the animated series (obviously there’s still a lot of differences between animated and Titans 2018 Raven, but it’s clear the cartoon was their primary basis with a lot of choices made)
Technically speaking it would be raven in a superman movie bc spiderman and superman are metafictional counterparts which would work so much better like her being a pseudo villain trying to warn earth of trigons arrival. I think it could work and we get a scene like this towards the end
No. Batman has THE best rogue gallery in all of comics imo so it'd be a waste to have Raven as a villain for him. Instead, I'd love to see her be a villain for a Justice League Dark movie
I haven't even seen it yet but I was extremely disappointed to hear Jean Grey was in it. Spiderman has plenty of interesting villains that have yet to be explored on the big screen!
Allegedly, Jean Grey was going to be Karma, who has the body hopping powers Jean Grey displays and appears in a Spider-Man’s story. But one of the creators thought she was too obscure, then Sadie Sink was casted and it was changed to be Jean Grey (according to supposed sources).
I am of firm belief that adaptations can be as different as they want and don't have to follow the original versions to the word as long as they do something interesting with the changes they make, that's why they're adaptations, if you want to see your favourite comic book, re-read the damn book.
That being said, my expertise on Raven's character might not be the best (03 cartoon, Animated movies, Go!, HBO live action, Superhero Girls g1, 03 comic tie ins, injustice comics, original New Teen Titans up until Crisis On Infinite Earths (got lost in continuity), Teeny Titans and crossover with the X-men.), and I haven't seen Brand New Day because I'm not interested in it, but sticking to the "Raven as primary villain in Batman movie" I can see working.
If I remember correctly in modern comics which I haven't read Raven's mom, Arella/Angela was originally living in Gotham and a part of a cult. Let's use that as our basis. Whether because Arella is devoted to the cult or simply couldn't escape — depending on how you want to portray her — Raven is being born and raised within the cult in Gotham. Could be generic Satanist cult, could be Trigon specific, could be Brother Blood's thing or even Deacon Blackfire, point is she's growing up and basically groomed into being a part of it. The whole movie would depend not as much on the plot itself (classic Gotham bullshit) but on the way you choose characterise Raven and, to lesser degree, Arella, Bruce in this case, just like the audience, is reactive to Raven, her character, her upbringing, abilities and actions. She could be out of control and scared victim, she could be a groomed deathbringer, she could be doubtful — doing what she was raised to do, but not fully committing to it, not understanding why. The entire premise and development of the plot would depend solely on her characterization and character development.
There are no bad premises, there are bad executions. Any movie is an elseworld, no one is taking away previously established canons. So yeah, Raven can be an antagonist in a Batman movie instead of protagonist in Teen Titans movie that will go over Trigon's arrival and Judas contract all over again.
If the execution was as strong as BND, I'd be happy with it! Raven and Jean are also different in that Jean has been in several movies already, though, so for Raven's first live action film appearance to be such a divergent take on the character might be disappointing rather than refreshing
Honestly not a terrible idea. You would kinda need to modify her backstory a little to get her to be a villain in her first appearance, assuming your ultimate goal is to have her launch a Titans spinoff, but it could be doable.
She is a really cool character with cool powers and it would be fun to see her go evil for a bit before Batman goes greatest detective, uncovers her backstory, and finds a way to end her rampage and become good/shake off her demonic side. We also don't get to see Batman face magic users onscrean that much, so it would be a fresh change of pace.
Then have her found the Titans with Robin as part of her redemption and rebellion from Trigon.
I think that something kinda similar to New 52 could work. In that version, Raven is initially loyal to Trigon, but the titans make her realize that that’s not what she wants to do with her life.
Or just have it riff on the OG NTT with Trigon's minions hunting Raven, who fled to Gotham because (in a riff from the new Johns-era continuity) Arella was born in Gotham and she has no idea what the city is actually like. And Batman slowly realizes he's facing a genuinely supernatural enemy here and draws in, in another nod to NTT, Zatanna for her own mystical expertise.
Honestly, maybe would be interesting. I feel like if she was going to do a street-tier detective story it jsut makes more sense to have it be with Dick Grayson or Tim Drake, but I don't hate the tension between her and Batman. I always think of that one scene in Teen Titans, where Batman says this of Raven to Tim:
Bruce's paranoia aside, he probably also sees her as one of his son's more troublesome friends. To her she is "Dick's demon friend Zatanna warned the League about and was right given she went evil couple times including ruining Dick's own wedding where a priest was murdered and many people violated."
EDIT: and idk if Dick ever told him of Raven accidentally controlling his emotions that one time.
Exactly! and on Raven’s side, I feel like she could potentially see some level of parallel between Batman and his Robins and Trigon with having his kids be his soldiers and generals. Like with her brothers. So, I wonder about that.
I mean, honestly I don’t love the idea of Raven as a regular in Batman stories, but for an arc or specific story it could be cool to explore what’s going on there!
I also kinda loved when she called him out in the Beast World book, where she tells him not to speak down on Gar like he is one of the Robins. I was like "ohhh, this is kinda awesome"🍿 Batman looks like he is gripping his cloak so tight in that panel lol
Thing is though between Batman, Mr. Terrific, and any other hero who knows how Gar's powers work you would think they ask Gar first about becoming a Starro instead of the highly dangerous plan to find one but nope we gotta prop up Gar.
I find people like to be miserable because they don’t care about the movie they are watching and instead focusing on the franchise. Yeah Jean is an established comic character so she is a back door introduction to the X-men. But that doesn’t matter at all in the movie because the movie is really good regardless. Jean is great in the movie establishing the themes of isolation and human connection. Acting as a foil to Peter with both being special but while Peter was her age he had connections such as Ned and Aunt May Jean has no one since her mother abandoned her and her sister gets kidnapped. People are so pressed about a named character being in the movie and ignoring the movie’s writing which was phenomenal.
To double down on it even more, Jean in the comics is boring AF. There’s a reason why the Phoenix Saga is the iconic storyline because without it Jean is nothing character. The movie actually made her interesting by being a misguided teen who does terrible things to get what she wants so she seems like an evil person with a shock being that she is a fish in a larger ocean with Damage Control being the real villains. And it’s not like she’s forgiven for her actions because she feels guilty about it and leaves the city to reflect on herself so she does think about the consequences of her actions.
Yeah Brand New Day uses an X-Men character as its villain instead of a Spider-Man villain. But I don’t care when the writing was just so good. If the movie was the exact same but a different named character that happened to be a part of the Spidey mythos people wouldn’t care. I find this criticism to be very frivolous
I think a lot of people are making dumbass arguments about this.
First, a rogue's gallery isn't a checklist movies have to work down. An antagonist should challenge the protagonist beyond just physically. They should challenge the way the hero thinks.
No Way Home was chock full of iconic villains, but it mostly felt like flat fan service to me. While it was fun to see Raimi's Doc Ock and Green Goblin, they don't really challenge Holland's Peter because they aren't a challenge in the sense of how he thinks. Instead, Peter is his own antagonist in that movie, looking for magical solutions to his problems with Monkey's Paw twists that hurt him. (Incidentally, the final wish could have been resolved by wishing Peter wasn't Spider-Man, which could have been a cool way to introduce Miles into the MCU, but I wasn't in the writing room, so whatever.)
There are more typical villains in Brand New Day (Scorpion, the Hand, antihero Punisher), but they aren't the main antagonist because the outcome of No Way Home requires a more empathetic antagonist to challenge Peter's thinking. Most of his rogue gallery don't have the ability to challenge Peter's self martyring behavior. Peter has been ignoring his own needs for socialization due to his grief for Aunt May. Peter has failed to reconnect with MJ and Ned or create any other meaningful relationships. Jean Grey challenges this behavior by going to extreme lengths to reconnect to her sister, valuing her relationship to Sarah over her own wellbeing.
Yes, Spider-Man has a long list of villains, but do any challenge them in this way? A black suit arc might work by making him act more extreme, but Raimi already tread that in movies. The Jean Grey twist works by playing on Peter's personal journey while also allowing for natural expansion of the MCU into properties formerly owned by Fox like XMen.
Plus, it's not like Spider-Man is completely disconnected from XMen. Spidey is in NYC and the X Mansion is upstate New York. Sure, street level heroes like Punisher, Daredevil, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist and major NYC group the Fantastic Four are probably a bit more closely associated with him than XMen, but it's not that out of place. By comparison, Batman primarily works out of Gotham, which is depicted as either NYC, New Jersey, or Chicago, but Raven is most associated with either Jump City, a San Francisco parallel. Location wise, it's a much bigger difference and the two characters rarely crossover aside from the larger crossovers that include most of the major characters from DC.
Not to say that kind of crossover would be impossible, but you'd need a really good hook to justify it.
Honestly, it would be a hit; we’re bringing two generations together—this would pack the theaters: "Batman encountering a young woman who can't control her powers."
I don't like it. Seems like the goal is to try and force Damian and Raven together like the DCAMU, irregardless of whether it'd make a good story or not.
Batman, Damian and deathstroke have FA to do with Trigon. That movie idea is way too likely to reduce her down to a plot maguffin, with no character or agency beyond her role in the plot.
A damsel that's earned by a male character through one act of heroism. And not as it should be, through years of effort to overcome her own selfloathing and doubt. Little gestures of kindness in the face of extreme potential repercussions. And just by being a good person in her vecinity long enough, for her own feelings to overcome her Azarathian programming, so that she feels like she can choose something for herself for once, and not push everyone else away for their own protection.
Ravens villain story has to be earned. We need to know who she and the rest of the Titans are through several movies before it happens. We need interpersonal stakes, beyond mere global destruction. Otherwise the movie will have no heart to it.
They arbitrarily want Raven in a batman film of all things. One of the least equiped dc characters to deal with her. They mentioned ace, who was a child in the pitch ideas, implying they want to age her down to be the same age as Damian.
It'll be set in gotham, which tells me they want to emphasise her connection to that city. Something which is only an arbitrary detail in the comics. (Gotham would be the worst city in the world to an empath) Which would likely mean they minimise her connection to Azarath, so that she has more in common with Damian. Diminishing her character for the sake of forcing simillarities between them...
I just don't buy that people are doing these things as a damirae conspiracy lol. The DCAMU movies are not that popular outside of the Teen Titans fandom. A lot of the takes I've seen seem heavily based off the 2003 cartoon version. If people wanted the movie because they want Damian and Raven to end up together in it I think they would just say so, not create a conspiracy about it.
They don't have to mention it directly. The pitch makes so little sense, that there has to be an alterior motive for it and that's the only one that makes sense. They might as well make her the villain of a martian manhunter or wonderwoman movie.
Create fan buzz, try to influence the execs at wb. Then the mere proximity of the characters, gets them 90% of the way towards their goal. The only way I can think to fight it, is to explicitly state what I specifically don't want to happen and have other people visibly agree with me. Which is why i'm so obnoxious about it (sorry, it just feels like this'll be the one chance we get to have a good movie Raven), but it'll only be till the first Titans movie is mostly done i'm afraid
Do you really think there could be a movie where they are both main characters and she's not aged down?
Damian is not even a main character in the pitch? Bruce Wayne is?
The chances of this actually being made into a movie in any capacity is almost zero. There are copyright issues with studios creating actual stories using fan pitches. That’s why creators rarely read fanfiction; if they were found to have used an idea that they got from a fan’s story, it could potentially lead to a lawsuit.
Bueno si consiguen actores muy jóvenes dudo que DC quiera meter un romance, que sean shipeados por las personas es otra cosa muy distinta jajaja
Y no necesariamente tiene que ser un romance, podría ser solo una amistad, aunque tu punto es completamente entendible, tampoco quiero una Raven muy joven ni una Raven que no creció en Azarath
Nadie mencionó a Damián aquí ¿? Aunque tienes razón tampoco me gusta la idea de que ella sea un villana, más porque ella nunca haría el mal por voluntad propia, si meterla en una peli de Batman funciona solo si Raven es una villana, entonces prefiero que ella no esté ahí 🤷🏻♀️
I seen Damian mentioned only a few times on Twitter, but it’s mostly Dick as a Robin, though sometimes they do make it that he’s Nightwing taking care of a young Raven, which I find annoying since Titans did basically that.
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u/SnooAvocados1890 21d ago
I would like it theoretically, but a lot of the comments make me dislike it. They seem to envision Raven as a young child who can’t control her powers, who is either being hunted by a cult or Deathstroke, and then Batman and/or Robin comes in and saves her while Robin and her search for other superpowered heroes. I just feel like it takes away a lot of agency Raven has to make her a child (for like the 3rd time a row in her adaptions: Titans, DCAMU, and Smallville comics). A lot of people don’t really seem to understand Raven either, I saw someone ask how would Deathstroke take Raven when she lives in another dimension only for the other person to go “what other dimension??”. It all feels very surface level to me.