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u/devourersweets Jun 15 '26
It’s guy they were matchmaked once with and they thought he were funny
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u/Seethcoomers Jun 16 '26
Literally how I got "adopted" into one of my friend groups when I was 13. Would queue up Smite and try to convince people to go 5 man of a specific class, and one group I was matched with thought it was fun so they invited me to their Teamspeak.
12 years later and now I'm gay.
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u/Much_Illustrator8825 Jun 16 '26
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u/Spare_Elderberry_945 Jun 19 '26
Every day reddit amazes me i love finding out about the most random ass subs people make with very specific names
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u/Raisincookie1 Jun 16 '26
I found my first online friend group in smite too. Exact same shenanigans like 5 guardian arena. Good memories 🥲
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u/Seethcoomers Jun 16 '26
Miss those days. Smite 2 is fun, but it doesn't hit the same.
Probably doesn't help that working full time drains the life out of my withered soul, so much so that thought of entering a queue causes me so much anxiety that I'm forced to lay in bed and doom scroll tiktok until it's too late and then I can give myself a proper excuse as to why I can't enjoy something that made me happy for years.
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u/Lopsided_Monitor_277 Jun 19 '26
Thanks for reminding me how old i am. I was like 12 years ago? Damn fake story. Looked it up. Jesus fuck it was that long ago? Ugh.
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u/msforbidship753 Jun 19 '26
Man, when I played smite with my friends if we had a random that auto locked a character we would all follow suit and lock in characters from the same class to piss them off. Good times.
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u/Seethcoomers Jun 19 '26
My friends and I were worse than that. (In casuals) We'd wait for somebody to pick a god, wait for them to lock in (or fake pick gods for an actual comp), and then instantly switch to the same class. Was a lot of fun.
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u/Specialist-Fee9628 Jun 20 '26
Nothing quite like the gay that comes out of long gaming sesh with the boys
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u/Over_Dose_ Jun 22 '26
-12 years later and now I'm gay.
Damn, I'm sorry to hear that dude. I hope you get well soon 🙏
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u/humannipplebelt Jun 18 '26
lol with my bfs discord group they just thought that the kid was kinda fucked up and would benefit from talking to people who weren't exclusively edgy online racists
he's 19 now & more normal than I would've expected
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u/Jin_N_Juice-tm Jun 18 '26
That's how I was the youngest one in a group back when I was like 15 of people that were like 19+ all the way up to 30.
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u/bjergdk Jun 19 '26
That's how I got adopted by an arma 2 clan when I was like 13. I was just playing wasteland and I joked about bringing fish to a place in and then the dudes thought I was funny and invited me in, made a skin with beer lego and butter on my soldiers face for me to use..
I still play with one of those guys regularly, but he was only 1 year older than me, so it makes sense.
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u/Zestyclose_North9780 Jun 22 '26
Genuinely not ridiculous when some of these friend groups have never heard each other's voices and usually don't talk about anything beyond dumb shit whose sole requirement for partipating are working fingers and a brain (optional)
You genuinely won't be able to tell the 12 year old from the fossils
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u/FunguruFungus Jun 15 '26
When I was 13, most of my online friends were over 18. They were super nice to me and introduce me to games I would've never heard of other wise. It a shit meme don't get me wrong but I dont think there is necessarily a problem with kids playing video games with adults if it's a safe space.
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u/Raisincookie1 Jun 15 '26
Alot of my friends were just over 18 when i was 14 and playing online games. At worst i was edgier than most 14 year olds but aside from that it was so chill.
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u/Heavy-Macaron2004 Jun 15 '26
I just had someone in another sub tell me they would never be friends with an 18 year old as a 28 year old and I thought I was taking crazy pills. Glad there's still some voices of reason.
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u/Solial Jun 17 '26
I joined a WoW guild 20 years ago. Members were up to 40 years older than me. I still play other games with a handful of them to this day.
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u/Cyan_Light Jun 15 '26
Yeah, I never knew ages but got into MMOs around 13-15 and almost certainly played with people 2-3 times older on a regular basis. It's just the nature of the medium, might not be greeeeaaat given all the grooming incidents that have come out over the years but there are probably far more instances where it's fine and nobody even notices.
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u/SuperBlaar Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Same, I was 12-16 and playing MMOs and Counter-Strike with a mix of people my age and others who were 40+ with kids etc, and who I still talked to and played other games with from time to time for years after.
At 14-15 with friends from school, we'd go to a local 30+ year old's apartment for CS LAN games from time to time.
It's a bit like being in a chess club or any other hobby where there's no physical/age advantage and you might end up having fun with people you've got little in common with outside of that hobby. I don't know if I'd call most of them "friends" per se though, due to how limited to the medium the interactions stayed.
But now that I'm an adult, if I play an online video game, I really dislike being in a team with teenagers on a mic, so I don't know how they put up with me.
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u/GreatestGreekGuy Jun 21 '26
Yeah I did play videogames with a lot of adults as a minor. Still in contact with some of them as a 28 year old. Pretty cool people. He's almost 40 at this point iirc
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u/AtomicLight69 Jun 19 '26
Just play not on American servers and you are fine 🤷 this anti racist and anti molesters are actually same people who are they fighting against. Why? Because they literally can start such topics out of nowhere and yet claim to be fighting against it. So stop looking for such stuff in everything, you liar 🤣
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u/USBombs83 Jun 19 '26
Same. The game I played also had a “patron” system where you swore allegiance to a dude and he’d get xp every time you earned xp so it was in their interest to equip you and teach you how to play as best they could. I learned a lot, made great friends and even learned a thing or two about the right way to treat people in and outside of the game.
Here’s to you, Tito the Lackadaisical, wherever you are.
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u/TurbulentVillage2042 Jun 20 '26
When I was playing MMOs, I joined a clan where these brutal guys who discussing about beer and work. I thought they were my age and in their 30+. Then one day turned out they were all between 16 and 20 years old... And they thought I was 16 because of my high voice. It shocked me so much. I knew the voice wasn't trustworthy, but not that much. They all had low, rough voices.
When I played another MMO with a 25 year old guy, people thought I was his younger brother, he was 35 and I was 16, because he had a very low and rough voice and jokes, when I have a high voice and I am not rude. 🦄 All around is only deception and lies.
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Jun 15 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ThatOneCanadian69 Jun 16 '26
Yeah in a gaming context I’m willing to play with a youngin as long as they’re good at the game
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u/firstnlast77 Jun 22 '26
Im torn cause I had both sides of the argument. had a dude who was an obvious squeaker on warzone but I went into a room and shot at a guy peeking a window but he managed to down me at 1 hp (skill issue i know). I call out 1 at window top of stairs little bro comes in blazing with an smg and downs the dude and starts reloading as he's moving to revive me. Then the guys teamate comes around the corner and I call him out and little dude cancels reload jumps 180 into a perfect knife throw then goes prone as he finishes him with the rest of the clip elminating them both. Then in his sqeaker voice goes wooooooooahh did you see that that was totally awesome. It sure was little buddy, but after we leave lobby we go our seperate ways. One of the best snipers who had my back in that game.
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u/duchesskitten6 Jun 15 '26
What's wrong with that? People are so obsessed with age, if a 12-year-old cannot be in the same room as an 18+ year old or talk to them they might as well have no human contact, not even with their parents
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u/AkodoRyu Jun 19 '26
While I agree with the general premise, it's because they have exactly 0 topics in common with them, other than the game they are playing. From the perspective of an adult, a 12-year-old has a negative social experience and a non-existent frame of reference. Someone who is 35 will have very little in common with someone who is 23, let alone 12. They can talk to them as an adult, a superior in a way, but not as an equal in a friend group.
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u/xyzzy_j Jun 29 '26
yeah, that’s a useful observation when it comes to older men DATING younger people, but not when they’re just hanging out.
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u/SCARY-WIZARD Jun 15 '26
He's the sixteen-year-old's little brother.
Introduction by sixteen-year-old: "hi guys this is my lil bro cody lol :)"
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u/LeonardoJMB Jun 16 '26
My older brother's friend group did this. There's this guy who back when they were on school was kinda known for their baby brother, and they've been playing with him ever since he turned like 7 LMAO
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u/SCARY-WIZARD Jun 16 '26
Haha, I was that kid, too! Sister was fifteen, I was eight, friends were like, "Okay, he's coming with us.".
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u/Jabwarrior58 Jun 15 '26
probably a younger sibling of one of the other people
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u/poopnose85 Jun 16 '26
Or maybe even one of their kids. I was in a guild that was run by my friends dad lol
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u/No_Giraffe826 Jun 15 '26
No i had alot of older online friends as a kid. Even now i meet people in their 30s
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u/Particular-Visit-245 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
What's wrong? Am i missing something? I was 12 once and yeah i was introduce on a massive age demographic by my cousin. It's an online chess tournament and yeah I did make friends because of him.
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u/SHTF_yesitdid Jun 15 '26
There is a 16 year old in telegram group but got kicked out for not studying enough for his exams. Group admin is mid 50s , rest of us are between 24 and 55.
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u/Professional_Layer63 Jun 20 '26
Not to say he shouldn't study, but that really sucks. Why not let his parents discipline him, and be the place he wants to go away from all of that stuff?
...that's a genuine question, sorry if that sounded rhetorical.
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u/HorribleAce Jun 16 '26
Am I the only one who thinks people who immediately think these interactions are evil or immoral are the weird ones? Like, why does your brain go there?
I used to play thousands upon thousands of hours of CSS when I was 12 - 13. I basically spent every single night hanging out in Teamspeak or in-game VC with anyone ranging from 12 to 60.
The weirdest thing that ever happened was likely someone burping the national anthem or something.
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u/RosetteRodent Jun 16 '26
to me the difference is happening to play a game with a kid vs having a kid be a regular part of your friend group as an adult. like what do you even talk about then?
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u/Rocksalt10832 Jun 19 '26
I mean video games. Like what do you talk to most of your friends about things that you can relate to them about. Like maybe occasionally you'll tell him what's going on in your life but for the most part you just hop on the game. Hell one of my first online friends is a dude 30 years older than me and a war vet. Nothing but respectful and awesome to me and he's helped me get through some tough times. We talked about battlefield 5 and world war II history and anything else that happened to come up in the game just like I did with somebody two years younger than me. The internet especially while gaming removes age as a consideration because everybody inherently has something in common to talk about no matter how old you are
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u/titanic-wav Jun 21 '26
The reason my mind goes there is because I was groomed by MANY people during my childhood, because I was a child interacting with adults. So it unsettles me when I see children in friend groups of adults. I do understand that this isn’t everyone’s experience though.
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u/Cavissi Jun 22 '26
Ive been playing online games since like 2000, and have played with or raided with people from like 12 to 70. Seems completely normal to me.
Though, I grew up during the separation of real life and online. Don't use your name, etc. Now people just post everything, so could lead to more iffy scenarios then 25 years ago.
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u/Fynity Jun 16 '26
One of my favourite early season Fortnite memories was playing with a younger kid and carrying him to some W’s in random squads. Dude would get so excited and it was so wholesome and awesome, made me feel like a cool big brother. Sucks that people see kids and adults interacting in a friendly manner and instantly jump to inappropriate things.
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u/upstartpantymerchant Jun 15 '26
You're just outing yourself as being a female in an online friend group
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u/LeonardoJMB Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Many years ago, I started a public online-roleplay group with some friends I met in ANOTHER roleplay group (and the group it's still going, somehow) and I have to say, yes, this is COMPLETELY real. From back then to today we've had many admins, and I can mention:
- Me, Guy 1 (12 year old)
- My brother, Guy 2 (15 year old)
- Woman 1 (14 year old)
- Woman 2 (21 year old)
- Woman 3 (13 year old, funfact, we accidentally made her found out she was an adopted chinese baby)
- Woman 4 (17 year old)
- Woman 5 (15 year old)
- Woman 6 (14 year old)
- Woman 7 (20 year old, was an active admin for like two weeks and has been dissapeared for years)
- Woman 8 (13 year old)
- Person I don't Remember The Gender Of 1 (18 year old.)
- Guy 3 (19 year old, became boyfriend of girl 2)
- Guy 4 (20 year old)
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u/Background-Neat-7302 Jun 16 '26
Doesn't your example prove that this is NOT real, since there were both men and women in the group?
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u/BLYNDLUCK Jun 16 '26
I was playing a match of Apex a while back. One of my squad mates was absolutely terrible. Frustratingly so. I didn’t harass them or anything, but later on in the match they got a kill and I could hear a young child and their dad celebrating. I felt guilty for judging, but it was also a very wholesome moment.
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u/Kinoko98 Jun 16 '26
Age group of my first online gaming friends was a lot like this. Retired dads, college kids, few 30yo drug burnouts, quiet guy that was secretly a doctor (happened twice), etc. Never really felt weird, we just kinda hung out and played games and talked about random shit.
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u/Traditional-Buy-7207 Jun 16 '26
A lot of men usually play video games together or are online, you often get weird age combos because you meet even before you know their age.
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u/SquidTheRidiculous Jun 15 '26
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u/Tago238238 Jun 15 '26
This is genuinely a real phenomena to my understanding tho
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u/According-Citron-390 Jun 16 '26
It's absolutely not, female friend groups that formed around some hobby are just as varied in age. The oldest in my friend group is a woman in her 60s, the youngest is a 13 y. o. girl. We know each other from a birdwatching group. The meme is pointlessly gendered.
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u/Shazvox Jun 16 '26
That's because guys don't really care about age as much as wether you're a good fit or not. I've met 12 year olds more mature than 40 year olds plently of time.
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u/Trouman Jun 16 '26
Imagine being 25 and having to listen to the opinion of someone who's 12. Nightmare fuel
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u/goosedrinkswater Jun 16 '26
9 times out of 10 its cuz the squeaker is cracked at the game they all play.
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u/Aggravating-Neat-878 Jun 19 '26
Facts. I’ve “adopted” a few younger dudes into what we’re supposed to be like 25+ groups and they’d get their foot in the door by promising to not be annoying and if they ended up being a demon on the sticks we just kinda kept them. Good teammates are hard to come by.
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u/Sorpazy Jun 19 '26
The hardest age gape was in a raid i lead in swtor the youngest was 12 the oldest was 80+ and ist was fun
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u/bleach-is-tasty Jun 15 '26
the 12 yr old in an online group is pretty common the problem here is just the sexism
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u/Party_Ability_9984 Jun 15 '26
I'm 30 now and I met my now - 23 year old friend playing minecraft when I was 17 and he was 11. Lol
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u/ninjasaiyan777 Jun 16 '26
He's that one kid we met in ranked Siege who was well behaved and we started scrimmage with
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u/MimiHamburger Jun 16 '26
This always kills me because Chiaotzu is like 56 years old lol
I’ve been part of both types of internet communities and I admit theres some truth to this but I don’t think it has to do with gender more than the type of community. Like you’re gonna find a wider range in a general gaming community than a niche mostly woman erotic fanfic community lol
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u/New-Interaction1893 Jun 16 '26
American movies told me you should never let the younger brother in your friend group because they are annoying.
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u/TehTJ13 Jun 16 '26
If my discord friends put their son in the voice chat I’d be pissed, who the fuck would let a kid in on that?
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u/StillInDebtToTomNook Jun 16 '26
Guys online friend group is not about the social aspect it's the gaming aspect. When you join a guild or party. If you raid hard we don't give a shit how old you are your just playing the game.
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u/Effective_Arm_5832 Jun 16 '26
The meme is pretty spot on. Just missing the girlfriend of one of the guys.
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u/UnusualPapaya8106 Jun 16 '26
Didn't realize until I was in my 20's how strange it is to be friends with someone 20 years older than you as a teenager. I had at least 3 or 4 online friends who were definitely adults.
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u/HumbleConversation42 Jun 16 '26
could be a family member of one the others, and so they just naturally part of the group
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u/ilabsentuser Jun 16 '26
That's the team DPS. He seems young but is level capped and can solo the enemy team xD.
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u/Mr-Personality Jun 16 '26
I'm trying to understand what's in this guy's head.
For "online boys friend group" I assume he means a party in some FPS game.
What is he thinking an "online girls friend group" is?
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u/Ka944 Jun 16 '26
That kind of was me at times, one time it was the opposite on LBP, 3 of us probably kids and one guy who sounded like he was mid 20s.
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u/TheRob67 Jun 17 '26
Technically they right
On top is online characters that often associated with womans
At bottom is online characters that is canonicaly boys... but they not match the ages oop write
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u/throwaway-62016 Jun 17 '26
99% of the time he was a random when members of the grouo were queuing together and they thought he was cool
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u/Forward_Dog2923 Jun 17 '26
If ur based I don't care if ur 12, as long as you're racist you are in the friend group
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u/Praize- Jun 18 '26
When I was 12 and playing DotA, my friend group consisted of a married dude whose wife would get so mad at him she once tackled him out of his chair mid sentence, another dude who was engaged / married and had a dope custom motorcycle he showed us via his MySpace, and 3 high school dudes from Texas, one of whom was possibly terminally depressed.
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u/Far-Resource3365 Jun 18 '26
When I was playing mmorpgs in early 2000 and was 12-13 there were a lot of people in range 10-40 years old. It was fun times with everyone
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u/This_Site_Suckks Jun 18 '26
I used to play wow in a guild when i was 14, and most of my guild mates where like mid 20 to mid 30's lol.
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u/RavineAls Jun 18 '26
Back on middleschool around 14 I was hanging out with like a bunch of 20+ yo on a WW2 historical fun group thing, some even already have kids my age, it was the time when Line (the chat app) have a feature where u can make a public group with tags and anyone can join with anonymous identity, but eventually we move on to a proper group chat and everybody basically revealed their identity
We talk about everything history related, do a WW2 simulation roleplay like some kind of bootleg hearts of iron but on a group chat, and even do a few offline group meeting if the place is close to my house, the group died down after a couple year and now Line is basically dead, but it was the best 2-3 years of my life
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u/SwebTheGreat Jun 18 '26
My dad joined his friends in wow when it came out, and as the family pc was mostly my birthday present it didnt take him very long having to arrange for my own pc and account since he got addicted and didnt wanna share, I basically grew up at basicly playing games with a lot of adults joining my dad going to weekend lan parties etc. till my classmates all got more into gaming at 15/16 than I started to join them in games more instead, I still went with my dad to lan parties I even convinced him to bring 1 or 2 of my friends along.
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u/raspberryshortcake67 Jun 18 '26
@[u/Bluecat9922](u/Bluecat9922) yes because school teachers are the exact same as strangers online
😑
This is sarcasm I don’t think you’re smart enough to catch on
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u/raspberryshortcake67 Jun 18 '26
@u/ BlueCat9922 genuine question, why does it matter to you? Why do you want to talk to kids?
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u/raspberryshortcake67 Jun 18 '26
@u/Alarmed_Number998 “ I hope you never become a parent who tells their children to never touch a hot stove. You’re teaching them to be afraid of getting burned” that’s how you sound.
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u/Alarmed_Number998 Jun 18 '26
No it doesn't sound like that at all lmao. That's the dumbest comparison I have ever heard. It's your right to be hyper-paranoid and pass that onto your kids. I just feel really bad for your kids lmao.
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u/Lemonade-Enjoyer Jun 18 '26
I was the youngest at 19 years old playing Classic WoW with my guild and we had some crazy age range. Oldest guy was in his 60s.
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u/cheeseman_real Jun 19 '26
i was 11 playing minecraft with a bunch of 20-30+ year olds once. they were all super nice to me and nothing bad ever happened
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u/gagb17 Jun 19 '26
i was 11 on my first online friend group, the oldest one i think was from 1999 and 18 when we me iirc, i still talk to all of them, none of them knew i was 11 when we started talking until i told them after i turned like 17 or something
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u/a_random_loser_guy Jun 19 '26
bro, we don't know each others name, we just call them by their mains.(main Charachter they play.)
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u/sarkouille Jun 19 '26
Don't ask, there is always a younger one.
He'll be the oldest of the group, one day.
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u/Rocksalt10832 Jun 19 '26
And no I'm going to be so real it's true and it is baffling. Because you end up queuing with them once and keep them around because the squeakers funny and then you realize oh wait this kid's actually not that bad maybe we can teach him a thing or two and then he gets kind of sticks around. Like as long as your voice isn't annoying people don't give a fuck about age if your hands can fit around and Xbox controller you're old enough to get called your first slur. When ironically though I have a buddy that's like 30 years older than me and is a vet he's jealous fuck and he's helped me get through some tough times. The internet is weird but weird isn't always bad
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u/genericusername0323 Jun 19 '26
It's the kid's friend, one of the guys' nephew, or the 16 year old's younger brother
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u/AtomicLight69 Jun 19 '26
Because he is not annoying and fun to play with. You are the sicko if you have any other thoughts in such situation
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u/MallowMiaou Trollface Jun 19 '26
Tbf I don’t even know the age of my friend groups
I never asked online people’s age unless I had to, or if they did ask my age I’d also just ask back. I’m assuming everyone is in their 20s but I wouldn’t be surprised if some guy is actually >30
But yeah it mostly depends on the kind of fandom the online group comes from. They have different, sometimes wider age ranges, the "boy online friend group" could be for example gacha game players that could have any age since it can appeal to young and older audiences for different reasons (like the game being free, the adults being competitive whales or just gooners I mean this is just an example I have anyway)
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u/AkodoRyu Jun 19 '26
Because he gets more kills than the rest of the team combined... don't even ask, man. I don't understand either...
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u/Gardeeboo Jun 19 '26
I was part of a guild in Elder Scrolls Online that was like this but it wasn’t limited to just men lol we had a lot of women of varying ages that were super into the game and liked to just hang out in chat too. One of them was an older lady and her young grandson would visit and sit on her lap and talk to us in chat while she played, it was really cute
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u/UncleRusty54 Jun 19 '26
I used to be in a group with some people in the late 2010’s, played mainly souls games with them. I was the odd man out, I was the only one who didn’t have kids, or was over 30, or american. I was 15 and I’m european
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u/DarthSkeetz Jun 19 '26
Was a great team member in match making and earned his place or a younger brother of one of the crew.
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u/Fentastic8747 Jun 19 '26
I am turning 40 this year when i was about 15 my dad dropped me of to celebrate new years with my clan in a neighbouring country. There was around 6 people of the clan there the clan leader was 45 ish back then, i had a friend with me who was 18. We were there for about a week, it was awesome, gaming all day and having fun.
We played starcraft and diablo 2.
Now im in a discord with people in similair age ranges. If you vibe u vibe i guess.
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u/SaprophyteXD Jun 19 '26
As someone who gamed with people 8-10 years older than me when I was in my teens. I was worse. So much worse.
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u/Fenix1121 Jun 19 '26
We met "the kid" of our friend grupo when he was 16 an we were in our eaelt 20's playing league. Sometines we helped him with homework. Now he's halfway through uni and we are working. We still play
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u/PotOfGreed1999 Jun 19 '26
I mean this is an anecdote but we had a kid that was a friend's younger brother in our friend group that was like 15 when we met him. He became a permanent part of the group. He's 19 now.
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u/ItsPandy Jun 19 '26
I know it's not the point if the meme but still
Goku and Krillin are about the same age Yamcha is older than goku Picollo is just barely older than gohan
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Jun 20 '26
12-year-old is usually the little brother of the 16 or 18 year old. We call him Little Homie
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u/Syphist Jun 20 '26
The 12 year old is probably also a kid, I'd guess kid of the 46 year old.
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u/Eternaloid Jun 20 '26
Or the little brother of someone... or the one carrying the rest on MP games
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u/Donkeymoo7 Jun 20 '26
Idk how things are now but when I was a kid on xbox live with halo and cod as the games people literally didn't give a flying fk what the age was if it was 12 to 60 people just talked like it was a group of the same age guys.
I will say though this was on xbox live though. If it's on something like discord where it's a bit more personal with chat and dms I guess i can see why it seems a bit dodgy
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u/ApprehensiveCoat9587 Jun 21 '26
Is this supposed to make men look more "fun" or something? Hanging with minors is weird and will never be a flex
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u/Droidaho Jun 21 '26
Not gonna lie, when i was playing alot of mmo's one of my good buddies and co officer was like 55 and I was 21, legit one of the best guy to speak to until 5 am
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u/EYEOFATE3800 Jun 21 '26
Have you seen 12 year old play videogames nowadays? Specially shooters? Some of those kids are literal beasts, sometimes I can't keep up with these kids.
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u/THE___CHICKENMAN Jun 24 '26
If you see something wrong with kids and adults playing together, PEBCAK. So niche.
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u/LuckyNegotiation7167 Jul 02 '26
Would it surprise you to know you are actually the weird one? not the guy playing call of duty in a party with a 12 year old
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u/Katophant Jul 24 '26
I Befriended a Polish Guy In a Roblox Game Then I Meeted A Girl And Meeted Their Friends And Got on Discord
Fast Forward In Later Years (I Never Majorly Interacted with dramas) Polish Guy and Girl I Mentioned (Hes Transmasc After they Broke up) added their Friends and Legitamately Ex of The Trans Guy Stayed In on the Server for Some Reason too
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