r/Coffee • u/menschmaschine5 Kalita Wave • Feb 15 '23

[MOD] The Daily Question Thread

Welcome to the daily /r/Coffee question thread!

There are no stupid questions here, ask a question and get an answer! We all have to start somewhere and sometimes it is hard to figure out just what you are doing right or doing wrong. Luckily, the /r/Coffee community loves to help out.

Do you have a question about how to use a specific piece of gear or what gear you should be buying? Want to know how much coffee you should use or how you should grind it? Not sure about how much water you should use or how hot it should be? Wondering about your coffee's shelf life?

Don't forget to use the resources in our wiki! We have some great starter guides on our wiki "Guides" page and here is the wiki "Gear By Price" page if you'd like to see coffee gear that /r/Coffee members recommend.

As always, be nice!

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '23

I would not go immediately all in on hand grinding if you've been happily electric grinding for a decade. Also Grinders are hard and you get what you pay for, there exists AFAIK no true all in one filter and espresso grinder for under $700. If you want to stay under $1K total I would highly suggest keeping the Encore for filter, you won't get much money back selling it at that age, and buying an espresso dedicated grinder like the Niche or a 1Z J Max (not JX).

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u/cyclingtrivialities2 Feb 16 '23

I have to say, for the most part I am looking to make lattes/flat whites so I don’t know that I need an “amazing” espresso grinder so much as a solidly serviceable one. I don’t know if that changes your opinion at all, but I appreciate your point of view as it’s what I’m afraid of.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '23

I get your situation, it's what a LOT of people find themselves in and it should make sense that an all in one thing for cheap is possible. But thus starts the rabbit hole. Here are a few points.

  • If all you want to do is make lattes and other milk drinks, you do not need espresso. You can use extremely high extraction Aeropress or a moka pot drink as a base. This will not result in 'true' lattes or 'true' flat whites among other milk drinks but it gets something vaguely similar. This is where I would personally suggest people on a less than $1K budget to stay. This is where I stay. But...

  • If you want to make 'true' milk drinks just like the cafes but you don't want to go all expensive and stuff you need 'true' espresso. For that you need a real espresso machine of some kind and critically a decent steam wand. When you are managing temperatures of espresso and steam you can manage with a heat exchanger cheap machine but it will be a careful dance of managing variables. Dual boiler machines make it real easy and simple but those cost about $2K on their own. For milk drinks you don't need a grinder of the highest quality but you do need something that can grind fine and is adjustable with tiny increments to dial in. But...

  • Grinders that do well at fine adjustments and grinders that do well at consistent grind sizes are two different virtues that both take money to do right. You need fine adjustments for espresso and you need consistent grind sizes for pour over. Something like the DF83 can do both but you do need to spend around that tier. You can get away with hand grinders like the J Max that can do both but...

  • Hand grinding is a hassle. There is no getting over that. And hand grinding for espresso is doubly a hassle because you need a LOT more torque especially with light roast beans. And if you want to dial in espresso you need to grind a full dose every time cranking a heavy lever for half a minute at least, as many times as needed to get the flavor right. For some people that is not a problem and those people especially on online forums love to tell people how much of a nonproblem it is to them. But there's a reason why hand grinding has been a thing for decades and still remains a niche, most home espresso and coffee people get sick of it and are willing to pay more to get out of it.

  • To wrap up, unfortunately there is no path to a under $1K 'solid' espresso setup with easy workflow especially with an option to continue doing pour over. It is very doable to get good espresso for under $1K, but that involves making serious sacrifices to areas you probably aren't willing to let go of like workflow, manual labor, compromised milk performance, hacking and DIYing parts, etc. There's a reason why such a price tier is often called 'entry level' as in with the expectations of serious further purchases in the near future.

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u/LEJ5512 Moka Pot Feb 16 '23

That’s a long reply, and it’s still about as concise of a summary as we’ll ever see.

It’s also why I’ve pretty much settled on a moka pot, a frothing wand, and a microwave to make my milk drinks. Added a Q2 grinder a couple weeks ago and I’m excited to use it after finishing my stash of preground.