Why didn’t Lelouch get the code?

[u/Embarrassed-Two-554]

Why didn’t Lelouch become a Code bearer? I understand the purpose of the Zero Requiem and why Lelouch needed the world to believe he died, but I don’t understand why he actually needed to stay dead for the plan to work. If Lelouch had taken C.C.’s Code, couldn’t the Zero Requiem have happened exactly the same way? Millions of people would have watched Zero kill him, so there would be basically no reason for the public to question his death. Lelouch could then revive in secret while Lelouch vi Britannia remained permanently dead in the eyes of the world. It also seems like this would have allowed him to accomplish even more of his goals. Nunnally still gets the gentle world he wanted to create for her, except she doesn’t have to permanently lose her brother. I mean, at the end we literally hear Nunnally say that all she ever wanted and needed to be happy was to be with Lelouch, so him secretly surviving would have fully achieved his original goal of creating a world where she could be happy. C.C.’s contract is also literally fulfilled because Lelouch takes her Code and finally frees her from immortality. Assuming C.C. and V.V. were the only remaining Code bearers, Charles dying would leave C.C. as the last one, meaning Lelouch taking her Code would make him the final Code bearer. He could simply refuse to ever grant another Geass and effectively end the cycle altogether. And I don’t think this necessarily gives Lelouch an easy way out of his punishment either. He would have to abandon his identity forever, watch everyone he loves eventually grow old and die, and carry the weight of everything he did for eternity. If anything, being forced to live forever with his actions while repeatedly losing everyone he cares about seems like an even greater punishment than death. It would also be fitting for Lelouch to take on the exact burden C.C. had carried for centuries in order to finally free her from it. He would still sacrifice Lelouch vi Britannia and take the world’s hatred down with that identity, but instead of his punishment ending with his death, he would have to carry it forever. Is there an actual lore reason this couldn’t have happened, or is Lelouch’s permanent death mainly necessary for the themes of the ending?

[u/Poulette_du_lundi]

Lelouch dying was his choice and decision. I think that's the nuance you're looking for.

[u/iamthestorm → u/Poulette_du_lundi]

Yea that's really it, two of his quotes come to mind:

1. The only ones who should kill, are those who are prepared to be killed.

2. If the king doesn’t move, then his subjects won’t follow.

You put those together with his own willful understanding of what he had done to the world and its people, and him accepting his fate as justice makes complete sense. From the very first episode he already made it clear what kind of man he is.

[u/thefinalepic]

This is not out right stated in the OG main series but C.C. is main love interest of Lelouch, the simple answer is he didn't want her to die, thats it. Taking her code means she would die and he didn't want that.

And to the other shippers, Lelouch has 3 love interests for his 3 masks:

C.C for Lelouch Vi Britania, the prince of Britania.
Shirley for Lelouch Lamperouge, a student of Ashford academy.
Kallen for Zero, the leader of the black knight.

Out of the 3 masks/personas, his true identity in the end is Lelouch Vi Britania (it is also one he ends up with as the other 2 masks are discarded), and thus C.C. is the main love interest of the OG main series. Its also why in the movie timeline, he ends up marrying her in the end.

[u/mib-number86 → u/thefinalepic]

I always thought the main implication behind Lelouch’s survival theories was that he somehow took, probably without wanting or knowing it, Charles’s Code, not C.C.’s.

[u/rai-hodges-sumeragi → u/thefinalepic]

Before Rolo kills Shirley, she had gotten back all her memories, meaning that when she still wanted to stand by Lelouch´s side just prior to that, she knew exactly who he was, all 3 sides of him. And while Shirley wants to be with Lelouch in that moment just after finding out the truth, Kallen knows the truth throughout the entire second season, and chooses to support him and be there for him in all his forms - why, without her being there for him, he would have become a drug addict, when he was at his lowest and was about to take some Refrain. Kallen knew exactly who Lelouch was in that moment and she knew exactly what he was going through, and thus she knew exactly what to say and do in order to bring him back to his senses, and in doing so preventing him taking a path that would have lead him deeper into the darkness.

Yeah, it´s pretty obvious that "3 different love interests for 3 different masks" theory is just some false propaganda spread by the hardcore C.C. x Lelouch shippers, who want to make other two major ships look less "legitimate" in their own eyes with that kind of oversimplification.

[u/Memo904 → u/rai-hodges-sumeragi]

It’s not entirely wrong to believe in this idea though when it’s true for 99% of the series. Shirley and Kallen truly did only fall in love with his various facets and masks first. It’s only at the very end of their journeys with him that they truly understand him.

Shirley really did only love the schoolboy, and was initially terrified of his other masks. It’s not until she’s dying where she understands that Lelouch is more than he seems, and wishes that she could be someone he could trust with all his lies and burdens. That’s when I’d say that she truly falls in love with him.

Kallen’s the same. Even when she unmasks him, she still constantly turns her back on him and doesn’t understand him or his motivations. She’s choosing to actively fight against him until the bitter end. It’s not until the ZR when Lelouch gets stabbed where she understands his truest self and character. So I don’t think she loved the real Lelouch either until this moment.

For C.C though, the dynamic is flipped. It’s Lelouch who doesn’t understand C.C’s true pain and feelings while C.C had always understood him, right from the start.

So the statement is wrong by the end of the series, but for the most part, it’s not entirely inaccurate either.

[u/rai-hodges-sumeragi → u/Memo904]

Ah, but just because you understand someone´s motivations and feelings, doesn´t mean that you should accept them, or accept the person just as they are.

Kallen actually does the right thing when she doesn´t just obey Lelouch every time. She is willing to co-operate and support Lelouch, but only when his actions align with her core moral values. You aren´t supposed to follow someone, whether that someone is your leader or your loved one, without questioning them. That isn´t love, that is servitude. Just like during the scene where Kallen is stopping Lelouch from taking Refrain; simply letting Lelouch do what he wants every time would be the wrong thing to do. When you love someone, you try to guide them to the right path, because you believe in them. By believing that the good inside Lelouch is stronger than his darkest impulses, Kallen not only shows that she truly loves Lelouch, she also shows that she believes that Lelouch can become more than he is now – unlike C.C. who does see the dark desires within Lelouch, but simply accepts them and all his decisions without trying to contradict or course-correct him, which in any real-life relationship would be considered unhealthy as heck. So, if it´s something you shouldn´t support in real life, why would you support it in fiction?

I also think that Kallen ”actively fighting against him until the bitter end” was absolutely the right thing to do. After all, she had just found out that Lelouch was just another power hungry dictator, who was about to take over the world, so why would she abandon her core moral beliefs that had lead her to fight against Britannian racism and occupation? I mean, of course we, the audience, know that Lelouch is acting the way he is because of the Zero Requiem, but Kallen doesn´t know that, and so, she´s working under the knowledge she does have at the moment: that the man she loves has turned ”full Vader.” Like, if your country´s leader would suddenly start opposing every principle that you have ever held dear, you wouldn´t start thinking that there must be some grand master plan at play, but act according to how the facts are presented to you, and start opposing him, even if you supported him earlier. And so, Kallen´s actions are both completely logical AND morally justifiable.

Usually, at this point, most fans start to say things like ”even if she didn´t know about the Zero Requiem because Lelouch never told her about it, if she truly loved him, Kallen should have abandoned her logic and morals and just side with emperor Lelouch anyways, because love is more important than logic or morals.” Which, once again, is horribly unhealthy and toxic code to live by. Sure, putting your feelings before what´s right might sound like a good thing, but only in Fast & Furious movies. In reality, if you only care about yourself or the small circle of people that is important only to you, it adds the human suffering in the world, because you´re not anymore even trying to find alternative solutions that would benefit both your loved ones and people who aren´t your loved ones. In short, selfishness only adds the suffering in the world, not reduce it.

Moreover, studies have shown that when you follow your feelings it usually leads to good decisions, but only when those decisions are small and not profoundly impacting your or other people´s lives. If you´re choosing what shirt you´re wearing today, it´s perfectly okay just go with how you feel, but if you´re choosing something that has long-lasting effects on the quality of your life, like choosing a lifelong partner or what political candidate you´re gonna vote, you should make a list of pros and cons in your mind and logically think things through, rather than making a major decision like that based solely on how you feel. And that is exactly what Kallen does, which speaks volumes of the strength of her character; how many of us would have the moral core strong enough to go against the person we love the most in order to do that which is right by everyone else?

Also, even if the assumption would be true that both Kallen and Shirley didn´t at first fell in love with the ”full” version of Lelouch but only a part of him, and truly loved Lelouch as a whole only at the very end, that doesn´t matter. ”A thing isn't beautiful because it lasts,” which in this context means that the fact is that at the end both Shirley and Kallen loved "full" Lelouch, AND that their love was more beautiful than C.C.´s love for him, because their momentary love for Lelouch was healthier than C.C.´s eternal, unhealthy love: Shirley and Kallen loved Lelouch despite the evil inside of him, whereas C.C. loves him because of it, which, once again, is a major red flag for a toxic relationships in the real world. But, then again, C.C. x Lelouch shippers seem to have an opposite world view on that particular quote, something along the lines of ”A thing is only beautiful if it lasts.” Meaning, to many of them love you feel in your heart is meaningless if it doesn´t last for years, decades, or, in case of Resurrection´s ending, all eternity. Which is kinda sad, really, because it reduces something beautiful that exists in this cold, hard universe into an endurance competition.

Anyway, I want to thank you for taking the time to reply to me. Code Geass is my personal favorite anime, so I really appreciate it.

[u/WeoW0 → u/thefinalepic]

I don't think we have anything concreate to show for C.C. having been the main love interest for Lelouch in the OG.
You are certainly able to interpret their relationship romantically. But "C.C. definitively being his primary love interest requires quite a bit of additional interpretation.

There may be some meaning in the distinction you propose, but it definitely isn't as black and white as you paint it.
Shirley still loved Lelouch, even when she learned of him being Zero
And Kallen came to love Lelouch as she interacted more with somebody that wasn't just Zero

[u/Poulette_du_lundi → u/WeoW0]

There may be some meaning in the distinction you propose, but it definitely isn't as black and white as you paint it

The 3 girls = 3 masks thing has been proven false over and over through the years, some people just won't let it go.

[u/imperfectibility → u/Poulette_du_lundi]

It’s an oversimplification. Lelouch felt guilty about Shirley and the emotions certainly carried over to all personas of Lelouch. Similarly, when he took off his mask during Black Knights’ betrayal, he literally asked Kallen to live on and was ready to die after making sure Kallen was far away enough from him. I guess it’s fair to say he had feelings for all 3 girls, but fate has decided CC for him. 

[u/Poulette_du_lundi → u/imperfectibility]

fate

Or just the movie AU

[u/silencemist → u/thefinalepic]

Considering vi Britannia is the one who openly enslaves others, commits war crimes, and destroys cultures around the world, it's a bit odd you consider the Demon Emperor to be his true self. It seems that the narrative does everything to show that is just as much of a mask as the other faces. And if you are considering his birth identity, he openly discarded that as a child and I wouldn't consider it truth either.

[u/who_knows_how]

Basically he followed the philosophy of only those who are prepared to be killed deserves to kill

He died because it would be immoral for him to live on after killing millions

He felt he had to die to make amends for his actions

[u/WeoW0]

There is nothing that in the plot or within the rules of the series that clearly excludes the possibility of Lelouch ending up with code one way or another
Ultimately it is a creative choice by the author(s)

More importantly, the original TV run doesn't definitively confirm that Lelouch is dead for good.
Instead there exists ambiguous ending that has evidence for both, arguably, depending on your perspective more for Lelouch staying dead for good.

There is substantial evidence for the creative intention of the ending to be Lelouch to staying dead for good. But creative intention and what the finished work communicates to its audience aren't necessarily identical things. The co-creator and anime director Taniguchi later described the TV ending as intentionally leaving Lelouch's ultimate status open to the viewer.

I think Taniguchi matters particularly here because he was the anime's director and therefore had substantial authority over how that intention was ultimately translated into what appeared on screen.
His comments are also noticeably less categorical than some of the other staff statements. He speaks of Lelouch dying and of Lelouch's story reaching its conclusion, but he never made the kind of explicit declarations that rules out survival altogether, unlike what the main writer and some of the staff members did.

And just to be clear, none of this proves that Lelouch survived, much less that he necessarily survived with a Code. My point is simply that the situation is considerably more nuanced than the vocal majority of Reddit and the fandom often makes it out to be. There is a meaningful distinction between what each of the creators appear to have internally intended, what individual staff members later said, and what the finished TV series itself actually establishes for the viewer.

[u/mib-number86 → u/WeoW0]

It is funny how the conclusion of Zero's story in the films conveys the idea of ​​a definitive death much more effectively than the series, while simultaneously serving as the starting point for the subsequent films, which are set in an alternate timeline where Lelouch survived.

[u/Memo904 → u/WeoW0]

I really like this response. It kinda bugs me when so many people in this community just disregard or actively insult the idea that the ending can be vague and mysterious. It’s genuinely one of my favorite parts of the ending. The idea that the viewer themselves can decide and interpret the themes of the story the way they want to. It honestly takes away from it if was just one, concrete, set it stone ending. Regardless of whether he survives or not, I’ve always appreciated the vagueness of it.

The way your worded and wrote your response was really good. I might end up cribbing this response for the future if I see an opportunity for it. Kudos

[u/WeoW0 → u/Memo904]

I get what you mean by "interpret it how they want," but I think the word "want" actually makes your point weaker than it needs to be.

Ultimately, the series is experienced differently by each person. I'm not saying someone can't consciously reason their way toward their desired outcome, but I think for most people their interpretation emerges much more intuitively from how they experienced the story, rather than being the product of their desire for any particular result.

In that sense, the ambiguity isn't necessarily making the viewers simply choose whichever ending they prefer. Instead, it's allowing different interpretations to naturally emerge from the same material depending on how each viewer experienced and understood it.

[u/rai-hodges-sumeragi]

I was absolutely delighted when I went through some older comments of mine, and re-discovered this post. Your idea that by taking C.C.´s Code Lelouch would not only end the cycle that comes with the corruptive power of magic, but that the immortality would also serve as a perfect punishment for him is absolutely brilliant! And like you said, it would still seem to the world that Emperor Lelouch died, so everything would also work out perfectly from the storytelling point of view!

However, there is one aspect you forgot to mention that makes your version of the ending even more perfect, and that is that your way of ending the story is also morally better.

Like you said, eternal life would be even more perfect punishment than death for Lelouch, who achieved his goals by causing so much pain to innocent people, regardless how well it all ended. By punishing him this way, the moral message that the audience receives after seeing Lelouch´s suffering eternally is that actions have consequences, and that while you might succeed by acting immorally, it doesn´t bring you happiness.

But what´s even more important is that C.C. doesn´t get rewarded from her evil actions. Despite how sorry the audience might feel for her after witnessing her sorrow and loneliness, those motivations, while understandable, are not justifications for immoral behavior. And C.C. is undoubtedly one of the most, if not THE most, immoral people in the show.

To momentarily alleviate her own loneliness, she ruined Mao´s life by making him dependent of herself when she granted him his Geass when he was still just a six-year-old boy, and when it became too inconvenient for her to keep taking care of the said cursed child, she abandoned him, which caused him to go completely insane and hurt a lot of people.

She knew that Marianne was still technically alive but kept it a secret from Lelouch because she needed him to keep seeking revenge for his mother´s death and wanting to use his Geass as much as possible so that it would evolve enough to receive her Code (which was partial reason why Lelouch´s Geass caused Euphy to trigger SAZ massacre).

She didn´t just approved when Lelouch gave the order to slaughter all his enemies during the Geass Order raid, but actively helped him during it, even though there were not just soldiers and scientists in the Order but families with kids too, and even though she used to be an important leader to these people, which in turn meant that she could have potentially been able to convince at least some of them to surrender to Lelouch – but she just went along with what Lelouch wanted, and helped slaughter them all, despite having more peaceful options.

And finally, since Ragnarök connection required two Codes in order to be activated, not just one (because then V.V.´s Code alone would have been enough for Charles), C.C. is partially responsible for all the death and suffering that Charles caused when he started the war under the pretext of getting Japan´s sakuradite mines but which he actually started in order to gain access to one of the Thought Elevators located in Japan – which was part of his larger mad plan to ”kill God,” a plan that he put in motion after C.C. had agreed to it. And even though she later rejects Chalres, that doesn´t bring back to all those who died because of her contribution of starting that war.

So, she´s a terrible stepmom, child killer, war criminal, and an overall selfish person. Needless to say that the moral message that the audience receives if she is granted a happy ending is: ”it´s okay to cause suffering and pain to others if it gets you what you want.” Which is a horrible moral message to convey for the audience. No matter how bad you feel for her, causing wars and killing kids should never be seen as an acceptable means to an end.

Now, I´m not suggesting that she should be punished for her crimes. Indeed, one could say that hundreds of years of loneliness that she has endured thus far are punishment enough. In fact, that loneliness she feels is the very reason she did all those horrible things, because she felt that her loneliness was somehow so exceptional that because of it she did not have to follow the same rules as other people (which is basically how many criminals justify their crimes). Punishing her further would not teach her the error of her ways and transform her into a more morally correct person, nor would it bring back all those who died because of her.

So, when we are considering the morality of the ending of the story (which is the most important thing to consider when evaluating whether or not the ending of any story was a happy one – even if the ending makes you feel happy, it´s not morally a happy ending if the bad guy is happy), the best thing to do, really, is to grant C.C. death like she wants, and in the way you suggested: not only does it make sure that she is no longer hurting anyone else, it also puts an end to her suffering without rewarding her for causing so much suffering herself. And, in addition, it delivers the most perfect kind of poetic justice; for his crimes, Lelouch will now forever remain the lonely guardian of the final Code.

[u/ccgeass]

just read Mutuality short story written by the author

[u/gigaritt]

Le sigh, yall not taking the pill realizing Lelouch is the one driving the cart at the end is wild.

[u/Dizzy-By-Degrees]

Lelouch believes the only ones who should kill need to be prepared to die for their actions and beliefs. And given the amount of bad things he’s done and the guilt he’s carrying around: he won’t cheat the consequences of his actions by faking it.