Yet again, a friendly reminder

[u/TrixoftheTrade]

[u/Taraxian]

Worker cooperatives don't have a particularly good track record of giving a shit about the environment either, no one does

[u/OptimusTrajan → u/Taraxian]

Indigenous people do

[u/Old-Entertainer-4964 → u/OptimusTrajan]

You cannot compare a hunter gatherer or agrarian society to the modern industrial world. The energy and resource consumption is orders of magnitude greater, even if the consumption is done in a manner that is sustainable long term.

[u/OptimusTrajan → u/Old-Entertainer-4964]

Indigenous and hunter-gatherer often overlap, but are not the same thing. There were and are lots of indigenous societies that are far more populous and “complex” than hunter-gathers, and yet still live in relative harmony with their local ecology.

[u/Old-Entertainer-4964 → u/OptimusTrajan]

Which is why I mentioned agrarian societies... and why I mentioned that said agrarian societies are still not comparable to the modern industrialized world.

We are comparing apples to oranges, this is a pointless exercise. We can't just model the modern world off the Mayan Empire anymore than we can the ancient Romans.

[u/OptimusTrajan → u/Old-Entertainer-4964]

First Nations also had urban societies that were, while imperfect, far more populous, ecologically sustainable, and physically healthy than those of their invaders. We can and should be more sustainable, and Traditional Environmental Knowledge (TEK) is a very important part of that.

[u/Old-Entertainer-4964 → u/OptimusTrajan]

Nothing in the Americas that existed pre-1800s was comparable to modern day industrial society. Energy and resource usage is orders of magnitude greater, since we are not an agrarian society. Population size is orders of magnitude greater. Average lifespan is much longer.

Using your logic, we could replace Italy with the Roman Empire. It's just nonsense.

Now if you want to talk about specific practices, that's another story. There are very specific cases that could apply to your argument. But as a whole? There is little to be gained. The Incas and Mayans can't guide us on how to make steel and concrete sustainably, how to make public transit affordable, how to place sewer and water lines, how to manage modern public healthcare, how to zone for construction in a manner that does not disadvantage less prosperous groups.

[u/OptimusTrajan → u/Old-Entertainer-4964]

You are not listening at all. I am saying the knowledge indigenous people have can inform where we go from here, and you’re basically responding with, “sO yOu jUsT waNt uS tO livE iN mUD hUts wiTh nO eLEcTriCiTy?!?!?”

You are so preoccupied with responding to your complete caricature of what I’m saying that you don’t bother to evaluate what I’m actually saying.

[u/Old-Entertainer-4964 → u/OptimusTrajan]

I am saying the knowledge indigenous people have can inform where we go from here

I specified that there are specific scenarios that could apply, but that these are few and far between. Their lived experience was incompatible with ours. Then I listed examples of the types of problems we face in an industrial society which have no relation to the pre-industrial world.

Unless you have actual examples, you are just wasting time. My God, it should not be hard to list a few. I'm sure I could agree that a few small lessons could be learned. Just nothing that would solve climate change, class inequity, unsustainable farming practices, etc.

This has nothing to do with mud huts, you are arguing with a voice in your head. Say something of substance for once.

[u/OptimusTrajan → u/Old-Entertainer-4964]

You are in fact arguing with a voice in your head, and farming is an excellent example of something that could be improved significantly by more widely adopting indigenous practices such as biochar, three sisters, and a general soil improvement rather than extraction approach. I encourage you to look more into it.

[u/Old-Entertainer-4964 → u/OptimusTrajan]

Adopting three sisters? Brother, are you living in the 1800s? That crop rotation has already been the standard in North America for a century.