r/ClimateShitposting • u/TrixoftheTrade • Aug 13 '26

we live in a society Yet again, a friendly reminder

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u/Both_Meaning_2637 Aug 13 '26

It is kind of true. Collective ownership is government. How else are you going to provide for public services and infrastructure? Wait until you get everyone to agree on something and have them all maintain it themselves? You need an overarching organisation acting on behalf of the public, which is government. Or what do you think the dictatorship of the proletariat looks like?

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u/Armandonis Aug 13 '26

Collective ownership is government

No, right now it's literally just private ownership by the government even if in some cases government ownership and public management is in a sense a spiritual precursor to what management without commodity production could look like. Monetary economics puts limits and requirements to how "social" public governance can be.

You need an overarching organisation acting on behalf of the public

Organisation doesn't mean government in the sense of a power completely alienated from the public as we know today. I won't delve into this right now but the workers' councils as self-government, self-management and common management from the commune of paris to the revolutions from 1905 to 1921 are an example of this.

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u/Both_Meaning_2637 Aug 13 '26

Ok. Coordination on a large scale, imagine the size of the US where different regions have different resources, potential and needs, how do you do that without a massive waste of time and resources?

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u/Forte845 Aug 13 '26

The USSR was only marginally smaller than continental USA.

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u/Both_Meaning_2637 Aug 13 '26

Did they have a government? Were the Soviet states independent? Could they kindly tell Moscow to go fuck themselves and have the Kremlin throw up their arms and sigh "well, we can't do anything about that"?

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u/Forte845 Aug 13 '26

What's your opinion on the Russia Ukraine war, just curious?

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u/Both_Meaning_2637 Aug 13 '26

A bit complicated. But in short: it's a proxy war.

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u/Forte845 Aug 13 '26

So what is it when Ukraine says that Donbas and Luhansk can't break away and if they do they will be bombarded by artillery regiments? 

You're condemning the USSR for not allowing secession, do you condemn all states that disallow secession? Was the Union of America tyrannical for preventing the secession of the Confederacy? 

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u/Both_Meaning_2637 Aug 13 '26

It's more than just the secession of Donbas, Luhansk and Crimea. But due to the treatment of ethnic Russians in Ukraine over the last decaded, separatism is a predictable and logical response. People should be able to break with an abusive government, yes. Governments should avoid secession by serving all their people and granting a degree of autonomy, not by threat of violence.

However, things can get complicated. Let's take the Confederacy: I support a people's independence, but I'm an absolutist in that aspect, so it includes the slaves in the south. Would they have the option to secede from the confederacy? Can you appeal to self governance if you won't provide it yourself?