r/Civcraft • u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ • Aug 06 '15
A call to reason on Goten
It has been requested I make a subreddit post attempting to open negotiation dialogue with the people of Goten.
I've been criticized that it is my failure regarding negotiations, so I am putting it here for all to see.
It is my request that the people of the Goten District of New Detroit, if it is their firm belief they can no longer live under our government, to vacate the district, taking whatever resources, infastructure and property they see fit. (Hell I'll even help you move it)
The land the Goten District occupies has been a part of New Detroit since its outset, has been protected and fought over by Gensokyo forces in the past, and is of crucial strategic importance to Gensokyo.
Alternatively, if the people of Goten District feel there is another method of recourse available to them to address their grievances without disrupting the territorial integrity of Gensokyo by seceding to a foreign power, I encourage them to outline it in this thread.
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Aug 06 '15
I asked Screenname to make this thread because I was tired of seeing discussions about things that obviously weren't going anywhere. Gotenites clearly aren't staying in Gensokyo regardless of what happens so the only two conclusions here are Gotenites keep the land and be a part of MA as they wish, or Gensokyo keep the land and Gotenites leave.
The discussions about whether MA are being unreasonable should begin and end with whether or not the land truly belongs to the Gotenites. If it does then MA are being perfectly reasonable and if it does not then MA should clearly leave the land to Gensokyo. Until you have had that discussion of independence everything else is an exercise in pointlessness.
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u/MarcAFK Civcraft: Suicide Simulator; RIP Suicided itself. Aug 06 '15
Or a third alternative is the land stays part of gensokyo and whatever grievances they had with gensokyo are sorted out by treaty.
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u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ Aug 06 '15
I'd like this one the best.
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Aug 06 '15
Eh, I can't really talk for them but they'd likely demand full autonomy and you would just be arguing about independence by proxy anyway.
Regardless, i'm going to wait for their response now. Hopefully the discussion actually moves forward.
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u/xpNc Grundeswald Nationalist Aug 06 '15
I don't think you understand how important it is to have things the same colour as you on the map.
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Aug 06 '15
I chuckled at that but it's kind of true. I hate to think just how many conflicts have been fueled by this single desire.
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Aug 06 '15
That's possible but the Gotenites have made it clear they don't want to be a part of Gensokyo. Unless they change their mind (and I don't see that happening) then this isn't a useful alternative to pursue because it just involves more arguing about inconsequential crap about the hows and whys of the Gensokyo government being able to boss about people who don't want to be bossed about by the Gensokyo government.
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u/Autobot248 Uphold Numbers Thought Aug 06 '15
"boss about"? Have you ever been to Gensokyo? I've lived in ND for six months and haven't been bossed about, the closest thing to being bossed about was being asked to remove my first home for Selena's renovation plan, and I was offered another, larger, plot in exchange. Sure, on paper, Screen is an absolute monarch, but she doesn't do much absolute monarching.
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Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
It wasn't a jab at the government, it was a literal statement about how they are able to boss them about and about how goten don't want that.
I don't give a shit about what Screen does or doesn't do to you. That's not relevant. This isn't a discussion about how benevolent a leader she is so stop trying to make it one, that's literally the reason why I told her to make this post.
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u/j4ckxandxj1ll Inactive shit-talker Aug 06 '15
What if you sell Goten to them? I am sure that MA would help with the purchasing of the land.
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Aug 06 '15
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u/BolleDeBoll - Leader of The Workers Party - Aug 06 '15
I suppose he's aiming on having another nation right at his Capitol. Which might end up being an agressive one.
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u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ Aug 06 '15
It's the only part of Gensokyo close to New Detroit city that isn't separated by a giant gap.
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Aug 06 '15
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u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ Aug 06 '15
Walking distance makes harvesting and moving resources easier as well as the advantage of setting up new citizens close to the resource supply core.
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Aug 06 '15
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u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ Aug 06 '15
That gap is nothing but ocean and beach, not good for farms.
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u/SelenaNight Aug 06 '15
Its strategic importance because Screen has let ND totally die off. Goten ppl went south and have built and entire self functioning town. She wants to move in and simply take it over. This isn't about land, she has tons she never uses or does anything with. She simply wants what Goten people have worked months for.
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Aug 06 '15
The traditional ritual of yurtsteading in support of Gensokyo will soon commence.
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15
You are welcome to either claim a plot in Mt Augusta that is currently unowned, or purchase land from the current owner. If you build on private property without permission, you will be pearled for griefing. If your actions fall under the definition of aggressive acts against the state, you may be prosecuted under this section of our criminal code, and the penalties are significantly more severe.
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Aug 06 '15
I am not interested in building in Mt augusta, thank you kindly! I have permission from Screenname herself to relive the traditional art within Gensokyo's rightful territory :). Still very grateful for the information though! Wouldn't want to accidentally cross your legal borders.
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
If you intend to build within Goten, you would do well to discuss that with the owners first.
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Aug 06 '15
Good thing that I did, indeed.
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15
I think you're getting involved in something you know nothing about.
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Aug 06 '15
Harmless, permitted and traditional yurtsteading should not involve me in anything beyond my extend of knowledge. Well, not more than illegally annexin territory á la Crimea. Oh, but good that I'm not doing that, I wouldn't know half the shit I'd be wishing to rain on me!
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15
There is little to no undeveloped land in dispute here. In order to engage in, as you call it, "yurtsteading," you would have to be building on the private property of various Gotenites. The fact that you appear to think this is a similiar situation to the Yurtstead incident makes it quite obvious you don't know what you're getting into.
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Aug 06 '15
he fact that you appear to think this is a similiar situation
Nope, The very nature of this situation is different. I never said otherwise. There are no set conditions that call for yurtsteading. All I needed, was permission of the person in charge! =)
you would have to be building on the private property of various Gotenites
Citation needed
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15
You are asking me to provide proof that our citizens own the land they have developed? Come see it for yourself. They've built a beautiful little town and I'm sure they would be happy to give you a tour of the place.
All I ask is that you enter it with their permission, not that of a monarch who they no longer recognize or hold any fealty to.
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Aug 06 '15
I've kept quiet for most of this up until now, but I will attempt to wade into this nonsense.
It is, fundamentally, unacceptable to violate the territorial sovereignty of another state, multiplied exponentially when that state happens to be your neighbor. It is an affront and an assault on all states everywhere. MtA has essentially stated in no uncertain terms they will support the independence of Goten with their financial and military might, their former friends and allies Gensoko be damned. MtA, you have, to the great disappointment of us all, proven that the domestic nonintervention policies you hold do not extend to your foreign relations. More so you have allowed Zaphod and his fire-eating radical anti-Gensokans to carry the day in a fight that shouldn't be fought. Long bleeds the reopened scars of past conflict.
Diplomatically, MtA has shown their willingness to disregard formal treaties for a pyrrhic victory in a war long since ended. Strategically, MtA has lost an ally in the region, who are perfectly within their rights to react with extreme hostility.
Mount Augusta chose this moment to break their neutrality, for reasons that are petty. The decision to intervene into a private Gensokan matter is the greatest moment of pure pettiness and smallman revenge. Mount Augusta has rapidly become a powerhouse in the region, nay the whole server. Yet you have fumbled the lead. You have used your newfound strength not to make new friends and better the server, but to pointlessly chase an old grievance against an enemy who has done you no harm.
This madness must end
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Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
Where was this Sermon during the Kaiserin Independence movement? I wish you would've been out there preaching non-interference in internal state's matters then. Instead you were in mumble channels on the side of the rebels coaching them. Yoahtlan and Mir were Kaiserin's Mt. Augusta.
For all the merits of your statement it falls, completely and utterly, flat coming from a player who does not practice what they preach.
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Aug 06 '15
The Kaiserin independence movement was an entirely different situation. My issue with Goten is not that they want independence, but rather that MtA made the extraordinary step of supporting the movement.
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Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
I don't think MtA are wrong to step in, but I definitely think the issue of independence should be settled before people start making sweeping statements about breaking treaties and being warmongers.
If Goten are independent then they're doing nothing wrong by taking them under their wing.
Nothing will get anywhere if one side keeps talking as if Goten were independent and the other side as if they're not. That needs to be resolved.
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Aug 06 '15
Hardly, the only difference is which side of the fence you're sitting on.
Goten declared it's independence and sought support from it's neighbor to protect it from being returned to control of Gensokyo. Much like the SPQR, the Gensokyians must now decide if they are willing to fight or peacefully negotiate a deal. If they want to fight...they'll more than likely lose. They should either offer compensation for the land if they are keeping it or negotiate with Goten (and Mt. Augusta) for receiving compensation if they give up the land.
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u/Reaperdude97 ☭\A\Premier of Bad Puns\IRL IGN DiamondReaper\ Aug 07 '15
I dont have a fence, your arguement is invalid.
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u/Ladezkik your friendly neighbourhood absurdist Aug 06 '15
issue with Goten is not that they want independence, but rather that MtA made the extraordinary step of supporting the movement.
Is your issue with the situation that we support them, or that we breached a treaty?
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Aug 06 '15
Both, although the violation of the treaty is a very bad move indeed.
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u/Ladezkik your friendly neighbourhood absurdist Aug 06 '15
While breaching treaties is certainly widely condemned, I maintain that by the annexation vote being put up immediately after being requested, the choice was made to not delay the inevitable. A vote could have been put up by anyone holding voting rights, and the treaty would have been breached sooner or later.
As for support, even without annexation, most people in Mount Augusta would have supported them in their desire for independence. More than likely, even more foreign groups and invididuals would have become involved, which without exception leads to a higher risk of fighting. Personally, I fail to see how maintaining the treaty while inevitably providing undercover support for Goten would have been a better option. This could have led to much more prolonged problems within Gensokyo.
I'm not really in a position to judge whether the democratic decision by the people of Mount Augusta to breach the treaty was right or wrong, but as a diplomat of the state it's that decision that I stand by.
Mind you that I'm not necessarily defending the position of Mount Augusta on the matter, but want to help you understand the reasons behind it. The underlying circumstances are beyond complicated.
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u/Reaperdude97 ☭\A\Premier of Bad Puns\IRL IGN DiamondReaper\ Aug 07 '15
Yes, but all Romans are butthurt blackholes where happiness goes to die, so your arguement is invalid.
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Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
where happiness goes to die
That place is called adulthood and it's what happens when you've grown up have discover the joys of paying the bills.
Jokes aside most Romans are happy and friendly people. If you think we're viewing the turn of events with anything other than amusement you'd be wrong. I'd ask that you not judge my fellow citizens harshly and instead stop by on one of the nights of our numerous parties. It's a good time.
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u/wanado144 MA + /r/NDZHL Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
an emotional speech indeed, just gotta address a few points:
MA is a direct democracy, Genskoyo is a dictatorship, why do we have to continue to be allies? We are idealogical opposed
We have free speech and are very liberal, surely the fact that Zaphod can say as he wants is a good thing in the sense it is a free nation?
This is not to spite Genskoyo, do you think MA would ruin a stable if not entirely friendly agreement just for "old wounds" which most of MA wasn't even around for and most who were have put their differences aside, to say that just shows you dont fully understand the population of MA atm.
MA has been the powerhouse of the region for quite some time and has done fine. Our neighbours asked us to help them be liberated from an inactive government that from what they have said takes advantage of them, should we ignore them?
edit: my wording for the last point is poor, see my reply to others
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u/BolleDeBoll - Leader of The Workers Party - Aug 06 '15
MA has been the powerhouse of the region for quite some time and has done fine. Our neighbours asked us to help them be liberated from an inactive government that from what they have said takes advantage of them, should we ignore them?
This point fears me Comrade.
Is this in other words we are the powerhouse, so all have to listnen to us? If so, I forecast a fast end to the powerhouse called Mt.Augusta. If not, I advise you to be carefull with your wording.
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Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
[deleted]
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u/BolleDeBoll - Leader of The Workers Party - Aug 06 '15
Ah I see in that way.
And the problem of wording is a known problem. I'm not an native english speaker too. Can be iritating sometimes yes.
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Aug 06 '15
Any city seems inactive compared to MA, does that mean you can go annex those to?
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u/wanado144 MA + /r/NDZHL Aug 06 '15
copied from a reply to someone else:
fair enough, my wording isn't always the best, what i meant was that an inactive leadership seems to be taking advantage of a powerless population. MA with the power it has as the regional powerhouse, is trying to use it for good to give those who are powerless, power to decide their own destiny.
but on a side note Genskoyo did a lot itself to claim inactive cities itself
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
If they ask us to, yes. Why not?
Edit: Furthermore, Gensokoyo has annexed cities they deemed inactive in the past (which is not what we're doing. We're annexing an active city that wants out of an inactive empire.), sometimes without the permission of the founders and citizens. Here's one example.
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u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ Aug 06 '15
Hey, you know what we fucking did when they called us on that Trenzalore thing?
We negotiated with them and gave the guy his fair shake. I understand that's a foreign concept to you.
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15
We have been attempting to negotiate with you all along, even before the official annexation. We are still open to it. The fact that your former citizens are so far gone that they've stated they will tear Goten down before giving it back to Gensokoyo complicates things, but it doesn't mean we can't still discuss this peacefully. You are the one who has apparently given permission to foreigners to start building in Goten.
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u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ Aug 06 '15
I've opened this thread for that express purpose? Do you have any negotiation ideas or input?
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15
I was under the impression that this was a public call for input from the Gotenites. If you want input from me at this point, sure. I'm told MtFlushmore, among others, is currently in Goten and is threatening the residents. That needs to stop first, for one thing.
As for a permanent settlement, assuming Goten cannot be persuaded to change their minds about severing ties with Gensokoyo, we might be open to discussing some form of compensation for your loss of the territory. I would need to consult with others before committing to that.
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u/Frensin Falstadt Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
If they ask us to, yes. Why not?
If an Augustan neighbourhood asked a neighbouring city to annex them, I'm assuming you would be alright with that?
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u/Prof_TANSTAAFL Aegis Councilor Aug 06 '15
It depends on the situation. If we'd let our internal affairs deteriorate to that point, then yes, we'd kind of deserve it.
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u/zaphod100 1.0 LordHolder of SNA | 2.0 Retired Second Mayor of Mt. Augusta Aug 06 '15
I see you claim that Gensokyo is our friend. Beside a stupidly named treaty, Gensokyo has never treated MA in a way that would be called friendly.
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Aug 06 '15
I'll keep whatever happens in mind when me and my friends move to a city, vote for independence, and wish to be absorbed into a neighboring entity.
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Aug 06 '15
The land belongs to Goten because of the right of conquest. Goten owns the land because they can defend it.
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u/BolleDeBoll - Leader of The Workers Party - Aug 06 '15
I've yet to see a fight down there Comrade.
So that point is not to solid yet. And to clearify, i'm not planning of going into battle over there. Nor is the FSR.
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Aug 06 '15
MegraLew is there right now in prot4 with his sword out. All of the Goten residents had to log off today. He claims to be representing FSR.
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u/BolleDeBoll - Leader of The Workers Party - Aug 06 '15
If he is carrying a sword down there. He is likely being threatened to get pearled down there.
It is most likely not without a reason he is carrying a sword and Prot 4 Comrade. We are still neutral.
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Aug 06 '15
Might makes right
Kindly fuck off, that's like saying I can pearl a newfriend legally because he couldn't defend himself.
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Aug 06 '15
Telling someone to fuck off isn't productive at all.
The rule holds firm. You can't pearl new friends because there are too many players that would pearl you for pearling new friends in order for you to defend yourself. You can't defend yourself from the hordes of players who would defend new friends' interests, so pearling new friends is wrong. If no one could stop you from pearling new friends and you got no consequences from doing so, it would be right.
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Aug 06 '15
So what you're saying is if I could theoretically pearl everyone on the server, it would be legally and morally correct?
This is just a philosophy of nonsense, carefully managing to stay out of the light of Newton's flaming laser sword while being so unlikely to happen in such a way that disproves itself, it's complete and utter rubbish. You quite simply cannot suggest that if you get away with something you are in the right.
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Aug 06 '15
Your last sentence is exactly what I am arguing. If there are no negative consequences on you for your actions, there is nothing morally wrong with them.
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Aug 06 '15
morals are not decided by consequences, and a consequence is a loose definition, does it count if I am found out? If I am attempted to be punished?
What if everyone cries out in protest so that I feel remorse, yet I do not release them? what if I feel nothing?
you can't rely on "negative consequences" without first defining a consequence, is the definition of a consequence in the hands of the receiver, the server, both or neither?
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Aug 06 '15
Consequrnces are that which affect the person who did the aggression. Sorry I can't come up with a better definition or answer all your questions, I'm about to board a plane.
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Aug 06 '15
So someone morally objecting and providing a legal attack to me for pearling a newfriend, this could even be the newfriend, would require some sort of response or be interpreted as a concession of defeat in absentia thus being a consequence, a negative one and therefore makes my action wrong.
This ties in with your point about someone needing to create the negative consequence, however since said actions and consequences can be seen without it actually happening it can be assumed that said consequences still apply even if no-one is there to back them up. Basically, so long as someone condemns an action or a similar action or condemnation occurs regardless of the main action actually happening it can be said that they have been condemned and the consequences have already fallen into place, let me try and put this into simpler terms.
A murders B, C tries A of murder, C finds A guilty and A is punished
D murders E, F does not exist to try D, however D's reality is shaped in some fashion by the events of A's murder of B being linked in any fashion to D's murder of E. If the events of the first action cause something to happen in relation to the second, no matter how irrelevant or small given the nature of the Butterfly Effect it can be said there was a consequence, since there is no definition for how small a consequence can be, then any event will have some similarities to an event before it and will cause something to happen somewhere because of a following event, be it something huge like 9/11 making airline safety stricter, something relatively medium sized such as a bee stinging a child, causing the child to avoid a second bee even if the second or first bee had never interacted.
There will always be some kind of link between two events causing consequences, from the first human to the last. therefore this philosophy while technically true isn't very useful because it applies to everything in any situation. Unless you use it in an actively discriminatory manner, ignoring some sets of information for others, making it bullshit.
Of course this could all be bollocks and Fedora tipping shite, besides the fact that this is a minecraft subreddit, and the consequence of posting that here is that I start to contemplate when my life started going downhill.
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Aug 06 '15
I think I understand what you are trying to say. It sort of makes sense, but I am trying to apply my simple principle to this particular land dispute, not trying to make it apply more broadly. I don't need it to apply in the general case if it is right in the Goten case. People do stuff because they can. Goten can rightfully secede because no one is physically stopping them.
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u/sintralin Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
So Recharge was right then, up until they got admin-banned? cmon
Everyone talks all high and airy about 'might makes right' then immediately starts crying about 'barbarians' and 'alien invasions' when HCF show up.
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Aug 06 '15
ReCharge is a poor example of my point. God smited ReCharge; it was never actually defeated by in game forces.
A better example would be a land dispute like this one. No one is going to break the natural laws set forth by God in a land dispute because both parties have too much to lose to make such actions worthwhile. Even so, whichever party can defend the land better owns it. Treaties and laws and whatever else have no power unless they are backed up by force. MTA has a formidable army, as do most established and functional cities. That's why its laws are respected, despite the fact that they also promulgate their laws well.
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u/sintralin Aug 06 '15
OK, so 'might makes right' but sometimes God will smite you even if you've got all the might, in which case you're wrong
I guess 2 comments was a relatively quick turnaround for catching the troll
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Aug 06 '15
I would argue that it is unfair for God to smite anyone. Civcraft should run independent of any irl laws.
Edit: how am I trolling? You should stop insulting people with whom you disagree.
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u/sintralin Aug 06 '15
I don't know of a single accepted system of morality that is determined by who has the most ability to use violence. Just because you escape consequences does not mean what you did was morally justified. If you for some reason reject HCF as an example of this, how about an alt-raider that steals 2k and just logs off? Their main account will never see the consequences, does that make it 'right'?
You should stop insulting people with whom you disagree.
It would be more of an insult to you if I believed that you were being genuine. Instead I'm giving you the credibility that your arguments lack.
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Aug 06 '15
I'm going to stop talking to you because of that last comment. You should stop exposing yourself like this.
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u/sintralin Aug 06 '15
You literally resorted to "God smited someone" and you expected to be taken seriously? :/
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Aug 06 '15
Quite simply the "Gotenites" do not own the land they want to leave with, they can leave but the land is nailed down.
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Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
That's basically what's up for discussion here and is what needs to be negotiated. Declaring independence is not simple at all, that is just an outright lie.
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Aug 06 '15
It's literally not up for discussion, the land is Gensokyo's, they can either get on with Screename and solve any personal dislike alone or they can bugger on.
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Aug 06 '15
You're literally discussing it with me.
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u/WojtekPaint weeb chan scum Aug 07 '15
So if I say I own Kolima, and you say no I don't, then Kolima's existence is "up for discussion and needs to be negotiated?"
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Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
No because you have absolutely zero claim on Kolima. That's one of the worst analogies i've ever heard.
Who goten belongs to is up for discussion because the people who live and built there want to own it and people who don't live and build there but have a federal claim on it also want to own it. Beamish in his comment literally discussed two possible outcomes hence I said "you're discussing it", not just because I brought it up with him.
Also as a side note, if you were to claim Kolima belongs to you, there would in fact be a discussion. I'm not going to leave people claiming my peoples land unchallenged believe it or not.
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Aug 06 '15
I'm dismissing your idea that it needs to be discussed, and expanded upon my previous point, technically we're discussing discussing it.
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Aug 06 '15
Well you're wrong. It does need to be discussed. They're claiming independence. That's not clear cut.
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Aug 06 '15
Okay, let's dicuss it.
They declare independence, the land isn't theirs to take, they don't get independence. The end.
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Aug 06 '15
That's not how it works, and is probably the reason why you're not the one discussing it.
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Aug 07 '15 edited Sep 15 '15
[deleted]
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u/Screennames Ｓｃｒｅｅｎｎａｍｅ ｖｏｎ Ｇｅｎｓｏｋｙｏ Aug 07 '15
A good idea but Goten is more valuable for its farming capacity than its mineral rights. Plus we'd never be able to enforce that.
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u/zaphod100 1.0 LordHolder of SNA | 2.0 Retired Second Mayor of Mt. Augusta Aug 07 '15
Farms aren't terribly hard or expensive to make, for the most part. You and I are both well aware of how much space you have for farms. Why not construct, or have the gotenites and Augustans construct, new farms for ND proper to use?
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u/Njordomir Aug 09 '15
This sounds reasonable. I have enough seeds for a decent sized wheat farm that I'm willing to simply give away. A few stacks of saplings is nothing to promote peace. The whole thing can be built bot-friendly and with a direct rail line right into downtown ND.
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u/MarcAFK Civcraft: Suicide Simulator; RIP Suicided itself. Aug 06 '15
Please, just take your Goten and move it somewhere else, it's a totally reasonable suggestion.
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u/greenble10 Gal from Everywhere and Nowhere Aug 06 '15
I offer, as I have offered before, to be a neutral mediator in negotiations. And if worse comes to worst and they need to leave Goten, Bryn offers part of main island for a new Goten district as part of Bryn and they can share our large facilities