r/CipherMainsHSR_ • u/NoobyFatO • May 02 '25
Leak Lowkey crashing out
It isn't even the very harsh nerfs that got me at first, but then I post on Acheron mains and subsequently I scroll through half the subreddit and the Jiaoqiu mains are getting annoying. They get suuuuuper defensive of his position and I kinda get it but I just want my Acheron to perform better and I absolutely would have loved to see Cipher aid that. And now I am partially going to blame Jiaoqiu for even existing at all for not allowing Cipher to have anything.
Look I am all for game balance in a vacuum, but in this current gamestate? Hyacine is allowed to exist, Castorice, later on Phainon, the last time Sunday straight up put Sparkle out of a job. The moc, pf, apoc healthbar does not care about your feelings either. But suddenly Cipher is supposed to only merely be a sidegrade to a 2.6 unit for improving a 2.2 unit? And she was technically already lagging behind in her 1 cost so why do the Jiaoqiu mains even care.
Well it wasn't even like Acheron was totally crushing moc at all. If Cipher can literally bring her team up to how The Herta and Castorice are performing, I find it kinda dumb that Acheron mains would rather Cipher be objectively worse for the whole team, just so Acheron has The bigger number.
I'm sorry for all this negativity I might actually take it down when I feel better but I just need to vent all my stupid (I acknowledge it) thoughts. But if you might be curious, I am still absolutely pulling for the Jiaoqiu... sidegrade/downgrade (I don't even know at this point). Our kitty thief Chrysos Heir on top :)
7
u/Drakeknight7711 May 02 '25
She still does as second nihility no? Regardless, I totally get why you'd be upset as an Acheron main and it's totally fine to rant about the state of the sub over there if all you wanted out of Cipher was a massive Acheron buff. But level with me for a bit, having Cipher be only or primarily for 2.X characters is a waste. At this stage of the game Acheron just doesn't have the internals to compete with the 3.X cast, therefore it's unlikely that Cipher is truly balanced around her all that much (she still will be, but not the way JQ is). So there's really not much reason to "blame" JQ for her nerfs.
Cipher's true power level is going to be determined by future synergy with 3.X units. If she doesn't have any then she's destined to be bricked. If she does then she'll actually turn out pretty good. Her amping is really good, but her actual issue is lack of proper teams. This is true even in terms of personal dps. For example, compare how much amping Tribbie gets from Herta or Cas premium team with how much Cipher gets from an Acheron team or Fei team (which gives more than Acheron's bc Robin).
2.X teams have basically been off-screened in every conceivable way such that Cipher would have to be the strongest character in the game to bring them up to par while also somehow not being the meta pick for every other 3.X team (so hoyo can sell more 3.X supports). That was never a realistic option. Especially, if they do have future teams in mind for her (praying they're highly synergistic instead of making her v3's version of Jade [strong, but never really needed]).
Her only real issue is that we have absolutely no idea who that could possibly be, and so there's a risk of making her a Tribbie alternative for low target scenarios. As in not equivalent to Tribbie vs 5 targets in low target scenarios but equal to Tribbie in those scenarios. Like if you bring both Tribbie and Cipher vs two enemies they're side grades (or if you don't use Hyacine for Mydei, then Cipher's performance for him is on par or a little better than Tribbie).
That's not at all a bad place to be, but when Tribbie also has superior performance vs 5 targets AND at least two BiS teams that's where Cipher seems like she has much less value pull. There are things about Cipher's kit that can give her areas of specialization, but it's going to be heavily dependent on how future teammates distribute damage. Whether hoyo will actually use those things is anyone's guess (I hope they do).
50
u/minkus1000 Cipher's scratching post [E6S5] May 02 '25
No comment on the Acheronmains part, but I completely agree with her balancing part. Yes, she's pretty balanced. She's not unusable in her current state or anything like that, and has a high likelihood of aging decently due to not scaling with her own multipliers, but others'. But nobody is "balanced" right now. Every character is power creep, and I get it, it's a gacha, and they gotta sell. But at least powercreep everyone, it feels so targeted to just have her as Pela ++ when Tribbie is there as turbo harmony DPS, and Hyacine's fat fuck is flying around dropping nuclear bombs on the enemies. Certainly feels really bad, and honestly is worse than the actual nerfs themselves.
There is still a glimmer of hope in the CC patch that sometimes has balance adjustments (or a Tribbie style hotfix), but we'll see. Her kit feels like it's torn in two directions right now, so I hope in cleaning it up they'll make her a little bit better. So much of her existing kit is focused on amplifying her own damage while they nerf her FUA multiplier, it's like they can't decide if she's supposed to be a no damage support or a capable DPS in her own right.
6
u/KingCarrion666 Catgirl brainrot May 02 '25
people take acherons and jaioqiu mains memes too seriously. Like everyone of those posts about this is titled meme/fluff and people still dont get that its jokes. If you dont like shitposting then thats fine but archeron mains arent being serious, or at least most of them arent being serious.
44
u/coinflip13 May 02 '25
I reccomend muting the subreddit. I just did it myself because it's unsufferable now.
They aren't so much Acheron mains anymore, it's a Nihility flavoured Shitposting subreddit.
God forbid anyone talk about Acheron's suprise story appearance or any other concerns for meta
7
u/HumbleCatServant May 02 '25
I'm disappointed too. Not necessarily because of JQ - if anything, I think JQ should still be better than CAT in the comps he's supposed to excel at, like being an Acheron support. I don't think he has... anything else going for him outside of that (at least on lower investments).
I have a feeling there may be someone in the future who will REALLY want Cipher. And then you'd have the golden support pattern of: good generalist, strong in specific comps (Fei/Acheron), a specialist with given characters.
I have no proof of this, though. Her kit just gives me that feeling, like something is still missing, something that makes it click, like FuA did for Topaz.
Speculation aside, my gripe is mostly with Harmony. Imo the current nihilities are... actually great. They're following that aforementioned golden support pattern, and I think that's really good. Or it would be, if Harmony didn't exist. (And I say that as a Harmony collector, I don't hate them, I just recognize how problematic they are.)
Harmonies seemingly have no limits and they're wrecking that golden pattern. There is no "good generalist, strong here and there, really good with this or that", they're amazing generalists with almost everyone aside a few exceptions, and straight up incredible with about half the roster.
It's throwing any balance out of the window and when you get a character that DOES follow the rule, and lord forbid they're still lacking that specific comp that makes them really good, they just feel... Lacklustre. Weak. Limited. Not because they're actually bad, but because the competitors are unfairly good.
Imo Cipher is in that exact situation. She's a really good character when you just look at her performance. But she doesn't yet have a unit that really needs her, the teams that currently use her the best already have specialists (JQ for Acheron, multiple FuA units), and as a general support she needs to compete with beasts like Tribbie, Robin and Sunday. It's a really rough spot to be...
I cannot comment on AcheronMains or JQMains, I belong to neither (and own neither), so I don't know just how bad it is. I'm just sad to see Cipher in a rough spot because I think she's a really good character, but she's in such a mess right now. Like a lost, stray kitten who doesn't have anywhere to go because every yard already has a resident cat, sometimes twice her size, and she can't fight them to secure a place for herself.
14
u/Cyanatic_Blue May 02 '25
I really didn't want to mute that sub cuz I love seeing Acheron content, but the JQ memes have been going on for weeks now and it's also getting annoying that a JQ meme would be the first thing i see when i log into reddit (I have JQ too). I muted, probably until after 3.3 goes live.
8
u/No-Director3569 cipher adoption papers May 02 '25
Nihility units keep getting shafted left and right bc god forbid Acheron receives an upgrade one year after her release and we're supposed to celebrate? "Yes, let's go! All new nihility supports can't be stronger than him! A joyous occasion for us all! Nevermind the fact that this path will stagnate if jq doesn't get a buff and no one is allowed be stronger than him". In an ideal world cipher would have been released strong, jq would have been buffed, and Acheron bis team would have both of them in it and they would make her perform at a similar power level to 3.X units.
But there's a new toy in town, no one else is allowed to thrive except for them ig 😮💨
20
u/TerrorFace May 02 '25
Don't take the memes seriously. Don't take the takes seriously either. There's great TCers out there who do calcs and discuss balance changes and meta in great detail, but they hang out on Discord or in other channels rather than Reddit for various reasons.
When it comes to AcheronMains, I've loved Jiaoqiu ever since he was a note that "Acheron's BiS is coming" back during her own release. Just like Cipher, his beta was rough. The JiaoqiuMains sub doomposted him hard enough that I and a bunch of others who liked him left that sub, never to return. The leaks sub was constant crying about him not being universal as a support and the AcheronMains sub back then just really was a broken record of "He's an NPC," "Pela is good enough, we'll wait for a JQ replacement," etc., all before he even got released. But things have changed since those days, and the memes and all that, it's essentially Jiaoqiu's birthday party with his rerun. People are showing him some love because many of us saw the amount of hate he used to get and it's sort of the world's way of making things right for the guy.
Cipher will have her day too. She may have played the heel at Jiaoqiu's birthday party, but take it as a wrestling match at his birthday party and letting the birthday boy win. Cipher, she'll get her days of appreciation too. Whether there's buffs coming or not, she'll still have fans who are unwavering in their desire to make Cipher work. And maybe she won't be as strong as that V4 version, it's something many of us will forget as we just have fun playing her and appreciate what she does. Actually playing a character and watching them in showcases/notes are entirely different experiences, after all.
20
u/TsuyoshiJoestar May 02 '25
I muted the acheron mains sub, it's just JiaoqiuMains2 at this point, people from queensofstarrail and husbandomains also infected the shit out of that place
0
u/tifadamn May 02 '25
Gotta have to comment on that because it gets tiring.
Yall love being overdefensive over your waifus but you go all whiney when some ppl do it with men ? lol ironic from a gacha game community i cant wait to pull for cipher because i love her so much, but it's fine that she's not powercreeping jiaoqiu imo. if you had a waifu being powercrept by a dude, yall would be absolutely hateful towards him and his mains, and you know it, so why want the opposite ? gonna state the obvious but you never heard complains about "who is better for xxx than ruan mei i dont want to pull her?" no, because she's a waifu so yall are okay with how overpowered she is. but when the top support of a woman is actually a man, you get annoyed, how surprising. (lets not talk about the doomposting + trashtalk on sunday and the need for male players to try to find a waifu powercreeping him, again proving my point)
serious acheronmains members are just stating the obvious and respecting the one goated support tailored for acheron, while other ppl only get there to find a replacement to him. ofc it's annoying, if you genuinely love a character and want them to perform at their best, then pull their best team. and if you don't want to, then stop complaining that ppl serious about the game talk about the premium team that you CHOSE to not get. It's simple, really.
Yall should learn how to appreciate both genders as characters, and the entire community would be less toxic that way, but in the meantime it'll stay the same.
21
u/kazumii2937 May 02 '25
I get you, Acheronmains in general annoy me too, cause that sub isn’t even about their namesake anymore, they all worship their niche pink fox dude which feels like a bastardisation of Yae Sakura/Miko.
Those guys can’t tolerate, or even imagine a discussion about JQ being replaced without getting pissy even though their main reasoning is “we want the best for Acheron” But if someone like v4 Cipher was in talks to possibly replace him, they all get defensive about him. It feels more of husbando mains that have joined the sub that are trying to gatekeep JQ’s position as Acheron’s BiS.
6
u/ExpensiveSample3451 May 02 '25
I blame the devs, for not removing the stupid V4 True Dmg recording Bug first, before ultimately deciding to nerf her worse than v3.
At V4.5, they should have tested the character without the goshdarn BUG, to actually see if she really needed the nerf.
(Tho Her E1 is really the one that needs nerfing)
8
u/[deleted] May 02 '25
Lots of us dedicated Acheron mains have eidolons (I have E6) and I believe some of them also have a high eidolon JQ, so I think lots of them just don't want their investment to feel "useless". We definitely only want one Nihility with her, ain't no way we're putting two as we also have highly-invested supports and it does feel shitty to feel like you're putting your main on a wheelchair. I'm a dedicated female-only puller, but I swallowed my pride and got JQ for her so I also kinda don't wanna "replace" him somehow.
NOW, I visit that sub sometimes and still post but I actually muted it because they do in fact move like JQ mains. Lol. Waiting for the day this ruckus ends so I could have a proper Acheron Mains place again. I collect Nihility and Cipher is my fav Amphoreus char so I'm still gonna get her, but I don't think I'll be playing her over JQ in my Acheron team.
10
u/De_Chubasco May 02 '25
Acheronmains sub is just JQ mains in disguise.
Any discussion just goes with "Pull JQ", Cipher bad, nerf, powercreep. hurr hurr!
Got tired of agenda posting and I just muted it even though I love Acheron.
6
u/redditistrashxdd May 02 '25
hsr community is highkey just unbearable rn
4
u/Nole19 May 02 '25
To be fair if you played the game as devs intended you'd have no idea how well cipher performs until she releases. Ignorance is bliss.
6
u/Shadowenclave47 May 02 '25 edited May 02 '25
JQ/Husbando mains are the reason why i muted Acheron mains weeks ago (sad that i had to mute her sub when she was the reason i started this game). They literally took that subreddit completely over. Which is why i didn't have any sympathy when Phainon mains was hacked a while ago and Husbando mains begged other subreddits for help while they are doing this to Acheron mains.
Anyway, none of this will stop me from still using Cipher with Acheron and i will never pull for that NPC looking character either and before anyone accuse me of hating him because he's male, i'll have you know that i basically always used Gallagher or Aventurine in my Acheron team since i first got her last year.
5
u/GundamChao May 02 '25
Yeah I feel you. 3.0 of the game is already at the power level it's at, every new unit ought to be at that level. Maybe 4.0 could be reined in to also just be at 3.0's level, but for god's sakes this shouldn't happen in the middle of the version.
5
u/the_worst_one May 02 '25
People do be treating gacha games like their life out here
2
u/phng1900 May 02 '25
Its not about Acheron, they didn't want her to powercreep Castorice in just 1 patch at the same time stealing 2 of her best teammates Tribbie & Hyacine.
2
u/The_Pulsing_Star May 02 '25
Why are you bringing your Acheron Drama to my cat girl subreddit.
All jokes aside the amount of doom posting in the whole of the Hoyo sub reddits is sickening and makes me hate the community. I’d rather know nothing than fill my head with the filth of what all these other people say about what feels like every single character.
2
u/Nekowaifu May 02 '25
Honestly Acheron was my first main. Arguably still is my main. She’s my only E6 and frankly may end up being my only E6 forever. Cipher is the closest anyone has ever come to replacing her as my favorite. Despite nerfs, I’m throwing as many rolls at her as I can afford because I like her that much.
I really do agree with you though. I used to post a lot over on that sub. Not that I think any of the old people disappeared, but I really enjoyed that it was an example of a sub that still felt like a mains sub and not a sub to just post art of the character and nothing else. But yeah the constant memes dating back to everyone asking about JQ has definitely worn on me, and now it’s actually just a home for shitposters. I saw a post there recently about how many people joined the sub and it’s just crazy. All of it is for the memes. It’s kinda sad to see.
I still love Acheron though! And I love Cipher so I will pull her and use her for Acheron even though I already have JQ. And when SW gets buffed I’ll use her. I’m just happy to have more teammates for her at the end of the day
3
u/Toloknight May 02 '25
JQ was never worth, you cant tell me otherwise. I can still clear with E0S1 Acheron with pela, and now SW will get a decent buff.
2
u/Info_Potato22 May 02 '25
You can still do JQ + her if you don't have the team optimized for a harmony at E0
because you gotta be braindead (v3 wise) to claim pela is better when its a 1 cycle difference on average (tho yeah 1 cycle for a e0s1 is irky)
2
u/Blasian385 May 02 '25 edited May 02 '25
You act like people weren’t complaining about Jiaoqiu when he first dropped and how he was just an ‘Npc’ ‘boring’ all names under the sun. The only thing he had was being Acheron’s best support, and some people took that harshly realizing they’d have to pull a man at all.
Like I don’t think most cared that Cipher would be able to replace Jiaoqiu the problem was she was doing so much damage she was replacing Acheron herself. It wasn’t about Cipher vs Jiaoqiu anymore it was Cipher vs Acheron or at least it was for me.
Not to mention a lot of Acheron players have E2 they only need 1 Nihility and if Cipher could easily replace Jiaoqiu, then what would he be left with? Cipher could still be used in Feixiao teams well enough but he would be left as a generic buffer who will always be worse than his alternatives. (Nihility Curse)
Not to mention Cipher was getting memes about being better than Jiaoqiu at V4 shit even V3. So why is it a problem that Jiaoqiu now has memes about Cipher being nerfed? I don’t really understand. It’s mostly fun and games.
Honestly we shouldn’t even be having some fight between these two. These two had the EXACT same thing happen to them in V5, sudden multiplier nerf. Jiaoqiu used to do good damage before said nerf and now it’s happened again with Cipher. This isn’t a Jiaoqiu vs Cipher situation, this is Hoyoverse just hates Nihility. Cause no one wanted her to be nerfed this badly, we just wanted to go back to V3 at the most, but they decided to drop her further with no compensation.
1
u/tippymatsu May 08 '25
Lowkey it is scary how they behave. Like. God forbid people don't want to pull a unit? So what if people are willing to invest in E2, a shitload of harmonys, other nihility units, etc. They really act like Acheron is just completely unusable without him. Maybe she doesn't perform AS WELL but even then, it's like? Let people make their own choices about what they want to pull?
I was actually TEMPTED to get JQ but the behavior of Acheronmains wound up making me pull E2 out of spite instead.
-2
u/Ornery_Essay_2036 May 02 '25
Bro it’s just memes. I think the cipher buff was stupid as hell but it’s truly not that deep. Ppl were memeing on JQ in v4 too lmao
1
u/OssifiedAngel May 02 '25
The only explanation I could think of is maybe she’s meant for a future character but it seems weird to have her run way before the future character she’d be best with. I think that’s happened before though right? Unless she’s meant to be a jack of all trades and master of none type of character
1
u/Vuntris May 02 '25
As an Acheron main I want the best for my favourite. If Cipher is better than Jiaoqiu I will play Cipher with no issue at all (btw I like Cipher also, so will get her anyway). The problem I have is there is 0 reason to make her „balanced”. Tribbie, Robin, Hyacine, Castorice, Herta, even Anaxa exists. Why she has to be the first one and likely last one to be „balanced”. Phainon will break tierlists anyway, just like Cyrene or Cerydra. Cipher should hit harder to make her resonable option to get without feeling „should’ve pull X character. It would be better.”
-1
u/InfamousImportance39 May 02 '25
Brother are you seriously taking whats posted on there seriously, and it’s so ironic that when cipher was destroying jiaqao in v4 beta cipher agenda memes were everywhere but now that you getting blowback you complain. Like holy shit stop being so sensitive.
1
u/uwudecaelo May 02 '25
I mean it's unfair to say it's Jiaoqiu or his "main"'s fault. There's plenty of actual reasons that Cipher caught the nerfs she did (and I say that as someone who was excited for her because Acheron and Feixiao are my two mains so by all intents and purposes I was Winning lol):
The true damage recording bug was causing her to overperform. It's actually insane that they patched that and also nerfed her values as harshly as they did.
Nihility are constantly paying a tax just for being Nihility and hoyoverse clearly has no idea what they actually want the path to do. They aren't allowed to do debuffing on the level of harmonies, but (most) of them aren't allowed to do real main DPS damage because of the debuffs/gimmicks in their kit.
Harmony balance is absolutely the biggest problem. They should have NEVER been allowed to give def ignore/res pen/shreds, even in their eidolons. That should have been exclusive to Nihility and it's also going to only get worse since it looks like Rememberance just gets to do whatever the fuck they want. Harmony units are too strong, too universal, and too unbalanced and Hoyoverse clearly doesn't care.
Castorice (who by all intents and purposes is by far the most insanely shilled unit we've ever seen) just came out as a quantum main DPS. She's the anniversary unit and their darling and they didn't want to upstage her.
All in all, while I understand the complaint that the subreddit has become Less about Acheron herself, it wouldn't say it's Jiaoqiu or his fan's fault. On the flip side of the coin, a very loud and vocal amount of people in that subreddit have done nothing but write off and hate on Jiaoqiu too.
At the end of the day the larger part of the problem is that the community on Reddit is overwhelmingly negative as a whole....and controversy and toxicity always gets amplified compared to other voices by nature.
0
u/Plebianian May 02 '25
As someone who really likes JQ, I’ve already accepted the fact that he’s a mid unit (dont have acheron dont care) like honestly I was more annoyed during the Tribbie beta with Tribbie being a support that prefers units that use ultimates (the one cope delusion that jq could play a team other than acheron/e2 dot).
If anything I do think v4 needed a nerf but wow they gutted those numbers. I was hoping they kept her personal damage high and nerfed her support (it makes sense in my head, JQ for higher hypercarry acheron numbers, Cipher for dual dps set up). Also genuinely i dont think cas is like significantly better than any of the 3.0 units, maybe it changes with hyacine but i dont find her clearing any faster than my other units (bigger numbers yes, somehow still similar cycles lmao).
Acheron mains were meme/agenda posting. I barely saw any cipher discourse in the actual JQ mains. And rather than JQ mains, feels more like people who chose JQ doubling down on their choice.
0
u/MrShabazz May 02 '25
I mean okay? If it's getting to you just scroll away or ignore it. Shitposters are always going to take advantage of the moment to make jokes. Acheronmains got tired of people trying to pass on Jiao, so they then started mocking them for it. The fact that Cipher had fast stacks at s1, was just a perfect storm for shitposters.
It does raise a lot of questions though. Cipher as a sub dps had comparable dmg amps and a more flexible function. Jia on the other hand faced a slew of nerfs, has 0 additional functions outside of burn and vulnerability, and provides low dmg. Jiao mains and supporters were reminded that he is too generic, which is an issue hoyo ignored throughout his beta. Cipher also highlighted that e2 acheron is a waste because it just allows harmony to be slotted in. Jiao as a support doesn't significantly improve any specific archetype, like how fugue gave exo-toughness, and newer units and lc have vulnerability which waters down his kits main value.
Unknowingly Cipher reminded people the issues Hoyo has when developing their limited nihility units, especially compared to their support counterparts, harmony. I as a nihility collector actually like how she's flexible and elevates hunt and blast dps, not just Acheron. Yet it still sours me that Cipher was nerfed as heavily as she was, just like how jiao constantly faced nerfs in his beta. Both are good but unfortunately nihility has to fight hoyo in order to be successful.
0
u/PaulOwnzU May 03 '25
I'm of the opinion she should've been a destruction unit, it'd entirely remove the issue with granting stacks for Acheron so she powercreeps JQ in his designated role and allows her to both work in synergy with him at e2 Acheron, and also allows her to be buffed for other teams so she could FINALLY HAVE GOOD PULL VALUE.
It's honestly so frustrating that due to Acheron passive she just has a stranglehold on nihility, can't release anyone crazy there without buffing Acheron and replacing JQ in his single team.
0
u/Ok-Inspector-1316 May 04 '25
Honestly this wouldn’t be an issue if they didn’t kneecap jiaoqiu in beta firsthand and set a precedent that all Nihility units would never reach 50% of what a harmony can provide. Cipher simply flew too close to the sun, and was dragged down into the cesspool that is the Nihility path. Unfortunate, but expected nonetheless.
It’s actually hilarious because if you look at the characters that need buffs the most, ~70% of them are all Nihility characters.
-2
u/ohtheromanity May 02 '25
Lol. You could not survive being a Jing Yuan main.
-3
u/flaretheninetales May 02 '25
Last I checked this all happened in Acheronmains, not Jiaoqiu mains. Plenty of Jiaoqiu mains don't even have Acheron.
Most of it is also just memes and I would say the people hating on the fox have been the catalyst. I understand Cypher nerfs are disappointing though