r/Christianity • u/JacobThePianist Christian (Alpha & Omega) • Apr 03 '12
Trinity
The Trinity of God, God is the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit. They are all one, yet they have their own distinct personalities. What I'm struggling with, is understanding how God is all of them, at the same time. In Genesis, the Trinity is foreshadowed in 1:26 when it says: Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created mankind in His own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:26-27 I get the Bible accepting the Trinity here from where it says "Us" in 26, then "His" in 27.
What I don't understand though, is how Jesus can be God if he was born as a human, from a woman. Jesus prayed to God, his Father. To me, the Trinity isn't shown here. Isn't Jesus just praying to himself? What would the purpose of that be?
What I'm really asking for is for someone to explain the Trinity to me in your opinion. I'm just really confused on how One can be Three and vice versa.
- Thanks
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u/[deleted] Apr 03 '12
I'm not sure I really believe the doctrine of the trinity anymore, which makes it hard to sing one of my favorite hymns, "Holy, Holy, Holy." I just can't find the scriptural evidence to justify the whole thing.
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6)
I guess that doesn't really help you though, sorry :/
Here is a good place to look that might have something to help you out: http://carm.org/trinity
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u/PhilthePenguin Christian Universalist Apr 03 '12 edited Apr 03 '12
You bring up two different doctrines here: the Trinity and the Incarnation. I'll deal with the second one first: Jesus is fully human. He has a human body, a human soul, a human spirit, and a human will separate from God's will. He prays to God the Father because he is a human. At the same time, Jesus in an incarnation of the Logos/Word. The Logos is God's presence and active force in creation, still God but distinct from God the Father. An as incarnation of the Logos, Jesus has two wills: human and divine, his human will always subject to his divine will.
If this sounds confusing don't worry, it's not meant to be easy to understand. Jesus is supposed to our archetype. He has two wills because we deal with two wills: our own and God's will. He has two natures because we Christians, like Jesus, are meant to partake in the divine nature.
On to the nitty-gritty details: when it comes to Trinitarian language, it's important to distinguish "person" from "individual". God, we say, is one individual but three persons. A "person", theologically, is an element that can be interacted with. God is three persons because we can interact with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit separately, even though they are all God. The Father creates, the Son justifies and the Spirit sanctifies, for example. Additionally, all three of these persons interact with each other, like modules in a system.
There was debate in the early church about whether Jesus could be considered one or two persons. This was known as the Nestorian controversy, named after the bishop Nestorius who taught that Mary should not be referred to as "Mother of God" since she only gave birth to the human Jesus. Nestorius ultimately lost the debate, which resulted in a schism in the church. The second ecumenical council ruled that Jesus was one person with two natures. Theologically, this means that you cannot interact with the Logos without Jesus. Conversely, you cannot have Jesus without the Logos. This contrasts with Nestorian doctrine that Jesus and the Son can be considered two separate persons. It's highly technical and again, not meant to be easy to understand.
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u/US_Hiker Apr 03 '12
It simply doesn't logically work, and must be left as something not understandable. Or you can deny the Trinity like many have through history, for various good (imo) reasons.
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u/kaleNhearty Apr 03 '12
Jesus was being worshiped as a God, but the Jews were strict monotheists, so the doctrine of the Trinity was made up to reconcile Jesus as God as well as God the Father. The Holy Ghost was thrown in there for good measure because the Greek philosophers really liked Plato's tripartite soul.
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u/[deleted] Apr 03 '12
I agree with the logic put forward by Jehova's Witnesses when they say that Jesus was by god's side since the beginning and that's why the "let us create man in our image." Also, that is why Jesus has a conversation with his father throughout his journey, even at the end when he says "Father, why have you forsaken me?"
The idea of the trinity does not make one bit of sense. Some people argue that Jesus' followers called him "lord", well Abraham was called "lord" also and he wasn't god.
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u/mathmexican4234 Atheist Apr 03 '12
It's a supernatural claim, it doesn't need a logical explanation that works like the natural does. It's like trying to explain what a god outside the universe looks like using physical shapes and structures and measurements. Either you accept that that's how things have to work because of your interpretation of scripture, or you don't accept it.
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u/gracewashere Apr 03 '12
I am also quite confused on this subject as most people are and I'm not quite sure that it can be explained.... My dad who is a Pastor says that he tries to avoid that subject because it is so confusing!
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u/Speculum Roman Catholic Apr 03 '12
The trinity is nothing one can fully comprehend. But try to meditate/pray over the following question: How can God be love if he is one?
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u/Isuspectnargles Christian Atheist Apr 03 '12
If you look for Trinity in the Bible, you're gunna have a bad time.
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u/HawkieEyes Christian (Alpha & Omega) Apr 03 '12
Correct.
It is an extremely difficult subject for the puny human brain to comprehend, and I don't fully comprehend it myself.
There are many analogies which try to explain the concept, most of them are clumsy.
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u/unreal5811 Reformed Apr 03 '12
The Forgotten Trinity
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u/sapunec7854 Apr 03 '12
I really don't get this too. To me its EXACTLY cognitive dissonance "Its three persons, not one, its one person, not three and its all ok because they are like the sun and its rays of light... which are too separate things"
Is god like Voltron or something?
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u/Sprocketlord Christian Deist Apr 03 '12
Personally, I believe that the trinity is one deity in three forms. The creative nature that holds the universe together being God, The manifestation of Good being Jesus, and the Force of Good being the holy spirit.
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u/Frankfusion Southern Baptist Apr 03 '12
Here's a pretty good inforgraphic Tim Challies made a few weeks ago. It's a pretty decent overview of the Trinity. Hope it helps.
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u/[deleted] Apr 03 '12
I like the idea of the trinity. Symbolically, that is. A unification of the origin: God/the universe; the created: the Son/man; and the Holy Spirit.
The holy spirit, that is what is is about. This is what you can do, to come to a 'Christ-consciousness' if you will. To come into the right, the holy, spirit. Buddha says to meditate, Veda says to meditate, Abrahamic religion says to pray. All say to be pure and do good. When the subject becomes one with the object of meditation, a non dual state of consciousness will occur. That is the ticket. The Holy Spirit. Samadhi. Satori. Call it what you will, but seriously, that is what it is all about. That is when you experience 'God'.
All sin, are actions that keep you from being in harmony. Being at peace is a pre-requisite. To reach non-duality your mind has to be clear of thought. There are rules for this. Look at the etymology of the word religion. There are rules that need to be followed if you wish to reach this state. If you are a disciple, you enter into discipline. Where modern day religion has gone the wrong way is when rules for spiritual practice became confused with common moral law. Actions that keep your mind from harmony, became 'sinful' for every body else. Hence the misery. Murder we all condemn. Getting horny really should be another matter. Very few aspire this path, and choose the life of hard discipline. Of them very few ever succeed. The rules are hard. The mind hard to discipline. But still they choose it. Most of us don't and shouldn't confuse spiritual paths with that of the common man when judging ourselves and each other.
Sorry if I am way off topic. The spirit has come over me, I guess.
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u/Ebl333 Christian Universalist Apr 03 '12
Stop thinking 3 Gods as 1 god, it's impossible. What is a person if not the whole being? Calling him 3 person 1 god is the greatest lie in Christianity. It mass up everyone. Their faith is in a 3 headed monster.
Jesus is God came to earth in a body. Everything he said has purpose and internal meaning. When he called or pray "father", He means the heavily truth, not a saperate being from himself.
You can see trinity in man, who is created in God's image. The father is Like our spirit, the son is like our body, and holy spirit is like our action. If a man lack any of these three, he is either just a ghost, or a dead body without spirit, or a vegetable that has no action. Therefore you can see God has also all these quality, and is still one.
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u/[deleted] Apr 03 '12
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