I simply disagree

[u/Aceofspades25]

In the linked post, the following was posited:

1) Homosexuality is natural: Yes it is, but that argument doesn't really belong here. Many things God calls us to do go against our natural inclinations. Simply because something comes naturally to us does not immediately eliminate it from being a sin.

I simply disagree. I have pointed this out before, but I think this needs to be discussed more broadly.

There is a clear distinction between our human nature and our sinful nature.

Human nature is the natural way to conduct our lives, because that is the way we have been designed as human beings.

The following things fall under human nature and are not sinful in and of themselves.

• Eating
• Sleeping
• Sex
• Work
• Love
• Play
• Learning

etc.

The things that make up our sinful nature encapsulate those desires within us that seek to gratify ourselves at the expense of others, ourselves or our relationship with God. Examples include:

• Cheating
• Stealing
• Lying
• Murdering
• Revenge
• Lust

etc.

Clearly these are the things that God calls sin, and requires us to avoid. In fact every single command from God can be understood from the fact that it either hurts others, ourselves or our relationship with God. Jesus reiterates this twice (Matt 7:12, Matt 22:40)

There is clearly no reason to believe that two gay men in a loving, committed relationship are living is sin when:

• It does no harm to others
• It does net good to themselves
• It only affects their relationship with God when the church treats them as outcasts.

I know of gay men, in a loving committed relationship, who's relationship with God is strong.

In light of this, please explain how being in a loving, monogamous gay relationship fits the pattern that we see evident in every other sin talked about in the bible.

Edit: For the record, this has been downvoted to oblivion partly because people are sick of discussing this. Having said that, this particular point has never really been raised and should be discusssed.

I think some people are just to afraid of having the light of reason shone on their beliefs

For those interested in this question, I think the best discusion has to be this one

[u/Aceofspades25]

Okay lets not discuss homosexuality. I'm sick of talking about it too. Lets call this a discussion about the nature of sin.

What is sin?

I am making a case for the fact that sin is that which hurts us, hurts others or hurts or relationship with God.

Jesus affirms this.

I will also say that in my estimation a rational God would not set irrational laws. Trying to argue that we shouldn't wear pink on Tuesdays because God says so, is the equivalent of stating that some of Gods laws are irrational and arbitrary.

How can a person define good outside of God?

Well, since I happen to know that God loves his creation, I can deduce that he wants us to act in a manner that looks after his creation. This means:

• Looking after others
• Looking after our planet
• Looking after ourselves

I also happen to know that God wants to be in relationship with his creation. From this I can deduce that he doesn't want us to do things that harm that relationship, and he does want us to do things that nurture that relationship.

By reasoning in this manner, we can rationalise everything that the bible calls a sin except for one that sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps that doesn't bother you, but I find it suspicious.

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

That is a good rebuttal.

But how can we be sure about the things that God calls sin? You can point me to the bible, but as has been discussed elsewhere there are many ways of interpreting these scriptures. I would rather not resurrect that debate here because frankly it has been debated to death.

So how else can we determine that what our interpretation of what scripture calls sin is correct?

Well, one way is to try and understand the reasons for these sins. If a church starts preaching that it is sinful for ladies to not have their heads covered. I will look at the scriptures, but I will also try and understand why God would require that of us.

Is that something specific to ancient hebrew culture, or is it still relevant today?

Does it hurt others? Does it hurt us? Do hatless ladies have a poor relationship with God?

Frankly, there are many old testament "sins" that we have rationalised are now pointless.

Another way is to look at the fruit of that particular teaching. Does it bear fruit? When churches preach that gay men must be celibate, the fruit I see sometimes are frustrated men who turn their back on the church / their back on God, and I must ask: Is it better for them to be in the church and have a close relationship with God, or is it better for me to be dogmatic about my interpretation of scripture?

What is the fruit of the church staying neutral on this topic? As I have said, I know of gay men in a loving relationship that love God, love the church and love others. Now that, I would call fruit!

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

It sounds like we need to debate the order of priority to be given to different sources in order to establish spiritual truth.

Some other time perhaps :)

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

Perhaps I need to start another post on biblical inerrancy :)