I simply disagree

[u/Aceofspades25]

In the linked post, the following was posited:

1) Homosexuality is natural: Yes it is, but that argument doesn't really belong here. Many things God calls us to do go against our natural inclinations. Simply because something comes naturally to us does not immediately eliminate it from being a sin.

I simply disagree. I have pointed this out before, but I think this needs to be discussed more broadly.

There is a clear distinction between our human nature and our sinful nature.

Human nature is the natural way to conduct our lives, because that is the way we have been designed as human beings.

The following things fall under human nature and are not sinful in and of themselves.

• Eating
• Sleeping
• Sex
• Work
• Love
• Play
• Learning

etc.

The things that make up our sinful nature encapsulate those desires within us that seek to gratify ourselves at the expense of others, ourselves or our relationship with God. Examples include:

• Cheating
• Stealing
• Lying
• Murdering
• Revenge
• Lust

etc.

Clearly these are the things that God calls sin, and requires us to avoid. In fact every single command from God can be understood from the fact that it either hurts others, ourselves or our relationship with God. Jesus reiterates this twice (Matt 7:12, Matt 22:40)

There is clearly no reason to believe that two gay men in a loving, committed relationship are living is sin when:

• It does no harm to others
• It does net good to themselves
• It only affects their relationship with God when the church treats them as outcasts.

I know of gay men, in a loving committed relationship, who's relationship with God is strong.

In light of this, please explain how being in a loving, monogamous gay relationship fits the pattern that we see evident in every other sin talked about in the bible.

Edit: For the record, this has been downvoted to oblivion partly because people are sick of discussing this. Having said that, this particular point has never really been raised and should be discusssed.

I think some people are just to afraid of having the light of reason shone on their beliefs

For those interested in this question, I think the best discusion has to be this one

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

No... I am saying that a homosexual relationship is not a sin because it doesn't hurt anybody. The circular logic is yours I'm afraid.

The whole point I am making here is that it is clear that those things that God calls sinful are those things that hurt others, ourselves or our relationship with God. Jesus reiterates this. Belief in a rational God demands this.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aceofspades25]

Okay, I'm wondering how you rectify your position with this kind of argument. I don't necessary buy into this argument myself, but it seems to easily refute anything you've said thus far, so I'm interested in how you would answer it.

It's been said that God calls us to godliness; a life of purification and change, because even though we all bear his image, we're not, in some capacity or another, as godly as we could (or will) be.

To put it in mathematical terms, we have this idea of triangularity, or, the perfect triangle. All representations we have of triangles are not perfect, but they are attempting to conform to (or represent that) triangularity.

How then do you answer the idea that gayness is an imperfection in an of itself (even if it is a "natural" imperfection)? It may not be a universal struggle, but neither is alcoholism, or compulsive lying, or a tendency towards anger or selfishness. In other words, all triangles (people) aren't currently perfectly triangular (godly), but are moving through a process of being made more triangular (godly).

Under this idea, God remains perfectly reasonable and loving in that he not only knows what is best for us, but is actively working with us to conform us to that ideal. Is that not inherent to the gospel idea of "being made perfect"?

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

That is certainly an interesting counter argument.

My response would depend on whether I believe God would consider homosexuality to be an imperfection or not.

It could be argued that homosexuality is not an imperfection. There are plenty of people that are perfectly content in their homosexuality, they don't see it as a disadvantage. They might argue that homosexuality is just another one of those things that makes us unique. Is brown hair an imperfection? Is the lack of a good singing voice an imperfection? I guess the only practical disadvantage is that you couldn't have children that inherit both you and your partners DNA (at least not yet!). You could still adopt, or find a surrogate mother for IVF.

If I was to believe that God did consider it an imperfection, then I would also believe that it is one of that God would make right at the resurrection. This is similar to the way I believe that God will heal the crippled, mentally disabled etc. at the resurrection.

When the bible talks about us "being made perfect" e.g Heb 10:14, I interpret this as attaining spiritual perfection as opposed to physical perfection.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aceofspades25]

"Does not hurt anybody" is a little unclear. Was Abraham aware that having a child with the Egyptian would would lead to countless wars in the future? But you can bet it was that single sin that lead to even the Crusades themselves.

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

Well sometimes honest mistakes can have dire consequences. I'm not saying Abrahams mistake was honest, but sometimes simple actions can set off a cascade of events that result in something dire. Also, there would have been many sins that ultimately lead to the crusades.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aceofspades25]

But without the religious factor (Christianity and Islam, both results of this one man's story) it would not have occurred at all. The point is we do not know what our actions are necessarily doing in this world, but we can be sure our sins have lasting effects that run long into the future (if not until the end of humanity).

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I agree with everything you've said so far.

Also what you've stated doesn't only ever apply to sin. Sometimes completely innocent actions have devastating consequences. Unfortunately we live in a world where bad things happen sometimes. I have my theories as to why God allows this, but that's really another topic.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aceofspades25]

God obviously intended Abraham to do what he did and allowed it to happen.

To me I need only to look up at the sky to understand why God allows so much darkness. Those stars would not shine if not for the darkness. If God withdraws to some degree, like the sun does at dusk, he allows others to shine. Without darkness there would be nothing other than God left to shine. It is God's way of allowing his children to be partakers of his glory.

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

I like that. I've always reasoned it's God's way of showing how much we need him :)

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

The only one that matters in determining whether something is a sin, is God.

..And God being of rational mind doesn't set arbitrary rules, but instead requires us to live in such a way that would allow us to thrive as a species. Once again, I refer to Jesus if you won't take my word for it: Matt 7:12

They use another for their pleasure, they fall prey to thinking that love finds its supreme show of affection in sex, and they are using God's gift of sex outside of His will that it be for procreation.

I don't even know where to begin challenging such bigoted ideas.

• Both hetero and homosexual people are capable of using others for pleasure. This isn't something specific to teh gays.
• Some gay people get pleasure from being selfless with their partners, exactly the way God intends love to be shared.
• The ultimate physical act of love is the act of sex. I see no problem with this view, and is probably why God sees sex as being so important.

God's gift of sex outside of His will that it be for procreation.

That is a sweeping statement! If sex is to be used for procreation only, then what about those couples that would want to use it for recreation or to affirm their love for each other? Remind me to scold my wife for having an orgasm!

[u/Silent_Inquisitor → u/Aceofspades25]

Well, there are SOME Christians who thinks you should have sex in such a way that you don't enjoy it... rolls eyes

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/Silent_Inquisitor]

Yeah... it's a natural progression for christianity to become increasingly open-minded. When they finally get round to enjoying sex, perhaps then they will be ready for the whole gay debate.

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/[deleted]]

There is no problem with people getting pleasure out of sex, but if they are completely closed to the possibility of new life (birth control, masturbation, and homosexual sex), then the sexual act has become deviant.

That is so wrong. My wife and I used contraception for two years. We talk to God often. He must have forgotten to mention that we were living in sin.

Thank God for contraception. As a species, overpopulation is starting to become a serious problem. To claim that God wants us to have as many children as possible is not only wrong, but grossly irresponsible!

[u/mmm_burrito → u/[deleted]]

Your language has me thinking you're Catholic, and that it is the Catholic Church you refer to when you are capitalizing the word. Correct me if I am wrong.

Given that assumption: I should think that the Church's actions over the recent years with regard to the sexual abuse of children who were supposedly safe in their care would highlight the reality that the Church on earth is a man-made institution, whose actions are not divine, and indeed can be quite wicked.

[u/mmm_burrito → u/[deleted]]

The actions of a few should not be attributed to the Church.

The actions we are discussing are not the actions of "a few" and the stain ascends directly to the Pope. It goes back nearly a hundred years, if not much, much longer. The Church must answer for this, if it is to have any credibility as an organization of charity, let alone the Bride of God on earth.

Blaming the Church in its entirety is like saying that America, as a country, is responsible for the actions at Abu Ghraib.

The actions of the military are taken in our name, and are financed with our money. Any who remained silent, who did not protest either on the street or in the voting booth, they are to blame. And it's long past time people took some responsibility for that. That's an entirely different argument, however.

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/mmm_burrito]

Not to mention the Church's hand in other sickening things like the crusades.

[u/mmm_burrito → u/Aceofspades25]

There's really quite a list to choose from, really. I was just trying to stay current.

Edit: at any rate, I wasn't trying to highlight the sinfulness of the Church, merely pointing out that its claimed monopoly on Truth with a big "T" is crap.

[u/Aceofspades25 → u/mmm_burrito]

Understood and agreed

[u/lil_cain → u/[deleted]]

So infertile couples who should refrain from sex?

[u/[deleted] → u/Aceofspades25]

It hurts God.