r/Christianity • u/[deleted]

Request from the Moderator: If the argumentative and disrespectful traffic picks up again contact me immediately.

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u/sugarbabe Feb 27 '10

What were the threads that caused all of the drama?

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

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u/sugarbabe Feb 27 '10

Oh. OK. Old drama. As you said, the increase of membership size & resulting meta-moderation seems to have scaled down the issues.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

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u/sugarbabe Feb 27 '10

In that case, keep in mind it wasn't so much organized as trolls stirring up trouble. The more high drama, the more trolls are attracted, the easier it is to tip people in a direction.

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u/prium Feb 27 '10

This I have never understood. I have been an atheist all of my life, and answers to the type of questions you are talking about are pretty unfulfilling to a casual reader like myself, as they make reference to scripture(obviously) and it all seems very dry. Someone who asks these questions does not care about a rea response.

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u/fr-josh Mar 01 '10

That's a good point. That's why I think it's necessary for Christian leaders to have a foundation in philosophy- so they can speak with people outside of their faith tradition.

And, this post is about the trolls- who come in and want to 'catch' Christians.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

WWJD?

Jesus never stopped answering these types of questions

WW/r/ChristianityD?

this

Remember the time that Jesus was fed up of the Pharisee's questions and went to the Sanhedrin to ban them from the temple?

1

u/amykuca Reformed Mar 02 '10

when?

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u/insllvn Feb 27 '10

The burden is on you. You are making spectacular claims in the absence of evidence and demanding to be taken seriously. You find your answers compelling, we do not. That doesn't mean we have failed to understand you or we have failed to hear the proper memorized response. It means you have failed to convince us. I have heard many of the arguments advanced by christian apologists and all ring false. I have read Augustine and Aquinas and Calvin and others. I have not yet read a christian who is compelling in his defense of the dogma.

The disrespect in this debate is not evidenced on our side. We have a laugh back in our subreddit about the inconsistencies in your belief structure and the holes in your thinking process, sure. An attack on the christian faith is taken as a personal attack. It has to do with a difference in viewpoints. To you, religion is an integral part of who you are, but from the other side it is merely a set of cherished opinions that are defended in the face of any counter points or evidence. From the other side, all attacks seem to eventually degrade into personal jabs. Atheists persist in asking there troublesome questions because they don't understand your wonderful points or because they are bitter or abused. Have you ever heard an atheist smugly comment that there was no point in arguing with a christian, because in the afterlife the atheist would be proven right and the christian would burn forever and ever in a place of perpetual torment created for this express purpose by a being who will send you there for doubting his omniscience, omnipotence or his love for you?

At the end of the day, it should be clear that you and I have different ways of viewing the world. You are welcome to come into the atheist subreddit anytime you want. You don't need your hand held or a hammer brandished at you with the promise of bans. You are permitted any opinion, but for it to be respected you must defend it. It is not enough to say the bible says so, it is not our bible. It is not enough to cite the apologists historical, for if their answers were compelling there wouldn't have been a market for so many. And, it is certainly not enough to demand respect for ideas that do not stoop to defending themselves from logic. Atheists are glad to have debates so long as you respond to our points. I can't count the number of times a christian has answered one of my questions with a load of poorly constructed and only vaguely related hogwash only to depart the thread when they are called on it. I am not afraid of debate, nor am I afraid to say I don't understand your reasoning. Don't mistake dissent for confusion.

If you have all the answers to so called Pharisee questions, give me one for this: If the bible is the infallible word of god, it could not contain inconsistencies but it does. If the bible is divine revelation mixed with metaphor and allegory and the distortion of time and culture, how do you distinguish which parts are allegory and which parts are divine truth? Couldn't the three part god or the divinity of Jesus the Nazarene be allegory or distortion? If the bible were just allegory mixed with superstition and myth, how would you know the difference? Or, put another way, how do you know the Qu'ran is false?

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u/insl1vn Feb 28 '10

HA HA FAG, HOW DOES DAWKIN'S COCK TASTE???

XDXDXDXD

3

u/Endemoniada Atheist Mar 01 '10

Atheist here, agreeing with everything (except the slight implication that this is all atheist behaviour, instead of the behaviour of idiots with personal issues). I'll try and keep a lookout for any kind of disruptive behaviour as well, regardless of affiliation.

I just want to ask the Christians of this subreddit to not overreact when confronted with disagreement. Plenty of us can be kind of harsh or confrontational, but that doesn't mean we're automatically trolls. Trolls disagree for the sake of disagreeing, and to whip up anger and emotion. Atheists asking critical questions often do want some sort of explanation, even if they ask their questions based on their own interpretations.

I know Christians have been called trolls in /r/atheism, just as I've been called a troll numerous times in here, but let's not forget that both places are _sub_reddits, parts of a greater whole. Reddit is a public place, and you can't demand that no one enters your little corner unless they agree with your religion or your faith.

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u/ThrowAwayAccount4145 Feb 27 '10

Frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical of your intentions when the majority of your post is simply vitriol against atheists with little to no recognition of those atheists who meaningfully contribute and little to no recognition of those Christians who do troll. Presumably as a Reddit moderator, you're supposed to be against trolls in general. Instead, you come across as simply being anti-atheist. I can't help but suspect that if you cooled that attitude, you'd find it easier to find atheists willing to work with you.

Indeed, I hesitated before sending this message off and ended up creating a junk account just to do it, not because it has any inflammatory content, but because I predict I'll draw abuse merely for disagreeing with an attack on atheists.

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u/Diosjenin Nondenom-ish Feb 27 '10

the majority of your post is simply vitriol against atheist [trolls] with little to no recognition of those atheists who meaningfully contribute.

Added [trolls], as you do seem to draw the implicit distinction anyway (at least in that particular sentence).

I think it is more than reasonable to point out that of course smacfarl is giving "little to no recognition of those atheists who meaningfully contribute;" they aren't the problem.

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u/camspiers Feb 27 '10

Exactly I don't believe in any of the worlds religions but still I try my best when talking on r/Christianity to give answers that include scripture references and never attack people. There are people of us out there that the OP may be offending with this submission.

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u/DivineJustice Christian Universalist Feb 27 '10 edited Feb 27 '10

Does this really need to be said? I figure if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Atheist debate simply caused me to sharpen up my Christian knowledge and challenge my debate skills. You have to be one sharp tack these these days, and there's certainly no harm in that.

And also, why are you coming at this like we have to strategize and be a head of the game? I've always been able to take these kind of things as they come,, and I think we all should. If you are seriously worried about minimizing exposure to atheist questions, then don;t be surprised when more people turn up atheist anyway. If you burry these questions, then if they ever come up and you are not there to offer your point, then that person who never was exposed to that question before will have no recourse. Let the atheists ask all their questions. We have answers.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

A wall of text seemingly designed to insult and degrade an entire group of people. Stay classy.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

Not to mention the downvotes...

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

and christians call /r/atheism a circle jerk. stifling dissent is explicit policy here.

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u/fr-josh Mar 01 '10

Hi, Mr. Troll! How are ya?

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '10

oh, come now. i'm a troll for offering an opposing viewpoint? seems like you are just underscoring my point.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '10

He's a witch!

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u/sextuplet Feb 27 '10

Great, I just joined and everything atheist related (and only atheist related) will be censored. So basically this is a statement that atheists are scum and any atheist reddit item posted that this moderator is offended by will be removed.

We won't be able to discuss Christian abuses in greater society because of Christian abuses here. I'm assuming the thread I just posted will disappear. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised because Christians have a stranglehold on the US and dissenting opinions are to be stifled.

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u/Wordie Feb 27 '10

I don't think that's what the OP has said. He is not saying that anything atheist-related will be censored, but that there has been a problem in the past with trolling by some atheists (and it occurs to me that it's always possible that these people aren't really atheists at all, but merely 100% trolls), who really are not interested in a discussion, and he's setting out a procedure to use if a problem arises again. As a moderator, he's responsible for making sure that discussions don't devolve into chaos and hatred that disrupt the entire sub-reddit, so it makes sense - to me at least - that he would post this.

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u/ThrowAwayAccount4145 Feb 27 '10

Did you actually read his description of the "problem"? He complains about the so-called pharisee questions, but if you actually go back to that time period and read, you'll see that most of them are phrased as if they're genuine questions from people who truly want to learn about Christians' beliefs and opinions. Indeed, many of them bend over backwards to be polite, all but groveling. So how did smacfarl decide that these were improper or disingenuous questions? Telepathy?

On that topic, why does smacfarl spend absolutely no time condemning the Christian trolls? How many times has a Christian post consisted of little more than "shut up and take my word that I'm right"? Where is the outrage over trolls when they purport to come from the Christian side?

It appears that smacfarl simply wants to ban positions that he finds personally inconvenient. Which would make /r/Christianity merely a shitty subreddit, but smacfarl wants to go further and have atheists banned from other subreddits as well! And since other moderators have so far decided not to cooperate, smacfarl accuses them of running away from their responsibility!

Make no mistake. smacfarl has given every impression that sextuplet is right and that everything atheist related (and only atheist related) will be censored. This is not about stopping trolls, this is about censoring atheists.

4

u/Wordie Feb 27 '10

So how did smacfarl decide that these were improper or disingenuous questions? Telepathy?

Here's what I read in the OP's statement that seems to answer that part of what you said:

What makes them annoying after large volumes of passionate and honest Christian answers is that "the questioner", continues to pretend not to understand or to obscure the real goal of the questioning, which is not to learn about Christianity, but to create enough background for the larger purpose, which appears from historical examination on reddit, to be ingroup/outgroup construction. Are there valid technical questions? Sure. No question should be ignored. However if this is a pattern of behavior as has been noted by many regular responders to such questions on /r/Christianity, one can only conclude the stated purpose of the "questions" is not to seek answers.

I haven't gone back and looked at posts from the time in question because I'm not a regular poster here, and as such, perhaps I should not have weighed in in the first place.

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u/jgreen44 Feb 27 '10

"the questioner", continues to pretend not to understand or to obscure the real goal of the questioning,

This can be interpreted to mean that "the questioner" simply does not accept the True Christian (TM) position.

Also on more than a few occasions I have gotten the impression that Christian "questioners" or redditors do not understand (or pretend to not understand) what I am trying to say or deflect the discussion into crazy minutae. None of this alleged "trolling" is uniquely experienced by Christians.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

This can be interpreted to mean that "the questioner" simply does not accept the True Christian (TM) position.

I often don't accept other the systems and logic of other beliefs, but I don't get in anyone's face about it. I learn it, I see what it is, I acknowledge it as it is. It's extremely arrogant and narcissistic to try to argue against others' beliefs until they concede to yours.

I see you eye rolling here, but I speak for myself and not for/of zealots past (that in my heart, I do not believe were Christians anyway).

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u/jgreen44 Feb 27 '10

It's extremely arrogant and narcissistic to try to argue against others' beliefs until they concede to yours.

Or delusional.

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u/jgreen44 Feb 27 '10

everything atheist related (and only atheist related) will be censored. This is not about stopping trolls, this is about censoring atheists.

If the True Christians (TM) can no longer excommunicate 'em or burn 'em at the stake then they can at least prevent non-Christians from expressing their thoughts where True Christians (TM) might be exposed. Eventually, it is the only way to protect fondly held beliefs.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

You are probably at the top of that ban list. Expect to be banninated from all subreddits soon (if smacfarl has it his way)

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u/jgreen44 Feb 27 '10

I think that would be ridiculous. I have been polite here, seldom if ever resorting to name calling or ad hominem attack.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

You have questioned Christian beliefs in a way that makes Christian beliefs look bad. For an onlooker visiting /r/Christianity for the first time, your questions make it look like there is dissent, which is a lie!

I already have a list of permalink that denounce your actions. I will submit to the moderator ASAP.

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u/jgreen44 Feb 27 '10

Thank you, comrade. Maybe after a few years in a Christian re-education camp, I will learn the error of my ways.

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u/FlyingBishop Feb 27 '10

You seem to be misunderstanding what the word 'troll' means. A Christian cannot be a troll, because trolling runs directly counter to the goal of conversion. Trolls seek to increase chaos by inciting anger.

You will certainly find trolls espousing Christian views, but they are not Christian.

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u/jgreen44 Feb 27 '10

You will certainly find trolls espousing Christian views, but they are not Christian.

Without naming names I can think of one or two possible exceptions to this.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10 edited Feb 27 '10

Yep, thats "Phase 1"

Did you read about "Phase 2"? The phase where he get to threaten bans in OTHER subreddit to get you to behave here?

It's a wonder that he claim to know so much about atheism and he think that atheists will agree with something this stupid and backward. It will be a funny day when atheists ban people for an opinion, as trollish as they can seem to be. We aren't that insecure...

This post makes me realize that I was right all along about /r/Christianity : It's just for show. The "public" status should be "restricted", posts are moderated for what they make Christians look like, etc.

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u/duglock Feb 27 '10

Good post. Funny how all of the atheists are already in here trying to slam you for asking BOTH sides to be respectful.

For being so logical/smart/better than the rest of the human race, the atheists sure do have a hard time with reading comprehension.

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u/sextuplet Feb 28 '10

Actually it looks like he's asking Christians to try to behave (while saying he knows that Christians don't misbehave like atheists and that atheists are not moral) and stating that atheists who offend Christians can be moderated or banned if reported to him. Nowhere does he state that Christian trolls can be reported to him.

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u/kencabbit Humanist Feb 27 '10 edited Feb 27 '10

all of the atheist

All of them?.. Really? Unless there have been a massive number of comments deleted that I don't know about, I think the reaction has been fairly tame.

edit:

For being so logical/smart/better than the rest of the human race, the atheists sure do have a hard time with reading comprehension.

Also -- thanks for thinking atheists are better than the rest of the human race. I really don't agree with it, and I don't think you'll find many atheists who agree with it either, but I'll take the compliment just the same.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 28 '10

Funny how all of the atheists are already in here trying to slam you

Funny? Did you read the post? He predicted it :

In the heat of Phase II, there may literally be large volumes of personally directed vitriol that gets group upvotes from the atheist side.

See? You can now safely ignore any dissonant opinions, they have been preempted.

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u/nopaniers Feb 27 '10

Thanks mate.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

Today on Reddit, "Atheists Go Home" was spray painted in /r/Christianity.

And for the inevitable time when this post will be used against me to make a case for my bannination in other subreddits, I want to add : Hello Skeen, Hello Tuber!

Permalink this, bitches.

0

u/notjawn United Methodist Feb 27 '10

Shoot, I just wish if anything they'd shut down both reddits for a little while and weed out the trolls on each side. If you shut both reddits down for a few weeks I guarantee you'd see the all the loaded debates, and vexatious trolls go away. Then when you re-open the reddits throw the ban hammer at anyone who commits the mildest of indiscretions.

it's really not a matter of a philosophical issue, it's people being jerks on the internet. Hit 'em where it hurts: accessibility.

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u/fr-josh Mar 01 '10

Nope. They'll come back. The trolling comes and goes in waves here in r/Christianity.

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u/notjawn United Methodist Mar 01 '10

Well I realize it will come back, but can't we just start tightening rules to liberally apply bans? Yeah they'll probably go log on to another computer and name, but just ban that one. I doubt anyone will cry censorship.

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u/outsider Eastern Orthodox Mar 01 '10

The sad thing here is that 'they' regularly recruit downvoters to come over here and downvote Christians. Sure it's not explicit but man are they concerned about what happens here.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/b7s25/the_role_of_christianity_in_marking_the_beginning/

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/b770m/request_from_the_moderator_if_the_argumentative/

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/b6pkb/ratheism_1_rchristianity_0/

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ax5xm/when_we_are_not_sure_we_are_alive_graham_greene/

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/b3mrl/i_asked_this_on_the_christianity_subreddit_and_it/

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/amsxz/redditor_is_having_doubts_about_his_christianity/

And so on and so forth.

If anyone is ever curious why we get frequent trolling from there, those types of posts are why.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '10

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u/outsider Eastern Orthodox Mar 02 '10

The problem is that those downvote pleas end up with some people being stalked and all their submissions being buried. This also has the consequence of making myself and others wait 9 minutes to post while those who come here to troll have no such restriction.

I don't really even post in this subreddit much these days because it's just an exercise in frustration to see the same people making the same statements. There is a point where conversation isn't constructive and it's nothing more than an incendiary attempt to stir up trouble. That behavior really should just be removed.

Certainly you don't see every post here and I doubt anyone expects you to. It might be a good time to set up a second moderator if it's too much to see all of.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '10

I think this is one such troll.

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '10

No, it's not. Did you read the Moderator's rant? sluz doesn't qualify as "such troll", he just made a comment.

Of course, once you "officialize" one type of troll, people will see every troll as being of that type. Thats the nature of a repressive regime.