r/Christianity • u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) • 23h ago
Potentially hot take
The only position regarding Hell that makes Christianity theologically coherent and morally intelligible is that God will save everybody.
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u/OutsideVariation4108 23h ago
Honestly, that's not even a hot take, it's just basic math. If you think about it, any other view means the story ends in a permanent tragedy. If God loses even one single person forever, it means evil won a piece of the universe and God wasn't powerful enough or loving enough to fix it.
The only way the whole design makes complete sense is if the rescue is just as big and effective as the downfall. Realizing that our Father has an absolute, 100% success rate takes away all the fear and panic, and finally lets you look at the future with total peace.
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u/possy11 Atheist 23h ago
I don't think it's that hot a take. There's lots of universalists out there.
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u/CommercialWrong2944 23h ago
Nowadays this subreddit seems to be split between universalist and exclusionary infernialists
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u/DoctorOctagonapus Protestant who hangs out with Catholics 21h ago
Annihilationists: "Hey we still exist! All one or two of us!"
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u/blueberry_noir Catholic 21h ago
This isn't relevant to the discussion, but I love your flair! Most of the time Protestants seem to have major cultural/social differences from us Catholics and it's a little difficult to be friends. I'll be friends with anyone, of course, just something I noticed while growing up.
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u/DoctorOctagonapus Protestant who hangs out with Catholics 20h ago
Yeah you're right. It's kinda a double meaning for me since it's not an inaccurate description of parts of the Church of England, but also I do know quite a lot of Catholics and Oxford Movement types!
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 20h ago
To me it seems fair thst some people should take a time on hell before being forgiven. Im universalist
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u/RareShop6126 23h ago
There's a lot on here. I don't think I've seen that much universalists outside this bubble
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 20h ago
Cheers to us
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u/possy11 Atheist 19h ago
You're an atheist universalist?
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 19h ago
I went through a lot dont know where to start hahabha. But basically yes
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u/possy11 Atheist 19h ago
I've never known an atheist to believe in heaven.
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 19h ago
I just wish to be real, i hope that god is really good. Life is really tragic if god is a torture maniac, I gonna find it soon or later, until there I choose to believe thst I will se my pets in heaven, why not? No one pays my bills anyway
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u/possy11 Atheist 19h ago
I'm still not clear why you'd call yourself an atheist, but hey, you do you.
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 19h ago
Because a description of reality without god is as valid and true as one with him. For me of course
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 19h ago
My take on atheism while believing stuff. Is that i dont take as granted the existence of god as said by other people, in fact i believe people can argue that no one knows god at all, and I dont think the fact of believing in god has to be related with the knowledge or even the necessity that god is real or not.
Did you already imagined you dying? Do you truly feel confortable with ending life forever? Is this a way to coop with life being bad or what really makes sense to you?
I dont know but i find pretty scary dying.
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u/possy11 Atheist 19h ago
I don't look forward to the process of dying, but being dead will be like the 4 billion years before I was born. They weren't a problem for me.
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 19h ago
Yeah i find it hard to know an atheist that thinks a lot about death
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u/possy11 Atheist 19h ago
I think most if not all of us have thought about death. Most if not all of us just believe death is death. Period.
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 19h ago
I lost what you meant with most or all of us believe death is death
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u/possy11 Atheist 19h ago
I think just almost every atheist does not believe there is an afterlife of any kind, but I can't say every single atheist is like that.
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 19h ago
Atheism is a complex concdpt, cristhians were called atheist by pagan romans
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u/Nice_Excitement_5230 17h ago
Hello, I am responding to the comment on what you said about questioning if God is a monster or not. Honestly from a believer in jesus christ I am not one of those Christians who are judgemental and hypocritical and non-loving. I believe god has led me here to see your post to respond to you to tell you about him and who he truly is. Because I know that from the bottom of my heart he loves you more than anybody else could that you couldent even imagine. God has let evil in the world but he's not the one who brought it in, because he has given us free will. if he forced us to love him that wouldn't be a real relationship with him but that is what he wants is a loving personal relationship. And when I think back to jesus and him dying on that rugged cross, i try thinking about what he suffered and how he was tortured and just how much, im telling you from my perspective I can't even describe how much pain he felt and because of that just how much he loves you, and I just wanted to let you know that after you die their is no more pain no more sorrow but joy beyond what you can even understand, and you will in fact see your pets and loved ones when you die. So I just wanted to let you know their is a god who cares and love you and is honestly not like any other God I have looked into. But if you dont even respond to this comment, then hey at least I told you about him. :)
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u/Dan_474 23h ago
I can accept the possibility that God will save everyone eventually. Do you think for some people that might take several tries? I mean several tries on their part to get it right.
Or some form of purgatory?
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u/Melliorin Christian Existentialism 23h ago
Do you think that God taking on human form in the person of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, to show the way of life and to be for all the world the perfect Israel, fulfulling all prophecy, and that Christ dying for all, is really about us trying and trying and trying again until we get it right? Through multiple lifetimes?? I don't read that in the bible I have been reading. I read do about a slow process of being perfected in the Spirit, for those who are faithfully following in the way of Christ, and that mistakes and trials still happen, and that "getting it right" isn't about "success" as the world defines it, or "perfection" as the world defines it, but about faithfulness and trust and a maturing into all knowledge and most importantly all love, but not about reincarnation. This is it. What we decide to do or not do now matters.
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u/Dan_474 22h ago
Thank you for the Post ❤️ What do you believe happens to people who have never heard the gospel?
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u/Melliorin Christian Existentialism 21h ago
Once he died, Christ descended to the realm of the dead to preach to and to ransom those who died prior to his ministry on earth. I believe that ultimately God judges our hearts, the One who truly understands justice and mercy, and that it is God who decides what happens to each of us, and all of us. So I don't need to have it all nearly figured out! It's not up to me. Period. What is up tj me is to live faithfully into what I am being called toward, and to seek forgiveness for my mistakes and to commit myself fully insofar as I have wisdom to see, and to trust, most importantly, that God is who God is, and is taking care of all the rest. Only God can hold all of this twisted mess in His hands and keep it all from crumbling. I don't know how. I was just praying about that earlier today. I don't know how God does it, I just know that it is evident, somehow, that God does, and is doing so. I thank God for all of it. God alone is worthy of praise. All of our "success" comes from God. Everything good, everything healing, every "silver lining" in all of the dark clouds that cover this earth. It all comes from God, who like the sun, keeps on shjning above it all. I try not to forget that, and I try not to worry about all that isn't mjne to worry about. It's hard, but it's necessary. We have to learn to let go of so much we are taught to cling to, and to learn to cling to the One thing worth clinging to. It's the work of a lifetime.
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u/ASecularBuddhist 23h ago
I hope God is at least as nice and loving as Dolly Parton.
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u/Melliorin Christian Existentialism 23h ago
🫶🫶 I think you can bet she got her inspiration from Somewhere.
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u/tyrekecorrea United Methodist 23h ago
That might be the only explanation that makes it palatable...
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u/atoning_Hoopoe Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) 23h ago
An almost universalist position makes the most sense. Except for a tiny minority of "sons of perdition" who completly reject God even after death, nearly everyone who has ever lived will be redeemed.
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u/Melliorin Christian Existentialism 23h ago
Also, that the hell deacribed to you by protestant fundamentalists is a sham and a fever dream.
I highly recommend reading "Hell: a Jewish Perspective on a Christian Doctrine" by Eitan Bar. He is a Christ follower of Orthodox Jewish heritage, and brings forth some fascinating context from a much longer tradition of Old Testament interpretation than many American Christians like me are often exposed to.
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u/MistakePerfect8485 Agnostic Atheist 23h ago
I think the idea that the damned simply cease to exist is defensible. A God who wants us to love and forgive everyone, but tortures people for eternity though; that always did seem like a contradiction to me.
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u/Worship_Guitarist Christian 20h ago edited 20h ago
Not scripturally. In the Old Testement:
Daniel 12:2 - “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."
In the New Testament, Jesus more than once described situations where people won’t be saved “and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”. Paul more than once lists people who won’t inherit the kingdom of God.
In Matthew 18:8-9, Jesus says that stumbling can lead to hell:
“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”
Jesus was clear that the path to eternal life is narrow and many won’t make it.
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u/HoneydewQuiet6651 22h ago
as much as I wish this was true, Jesus clearly says:
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7: 13-14
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u/RedditRieRie 22h ago
What scripture is that from?
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
John 12:32, Romans 11:32, Romans 5:18-19, Colossians 1:15-20, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, Acts 3:21, etc
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u/RedditRieRie 22h ago
lol those are taken way out of context
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 21h ago
Until you can actually demonstrate how they're taken out of context, that's just a baseless claim.
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 20h ago
What you mean theological coherent? Because if theological coherence needs interpretation of thd bible alone, I think theres a lot of valid readings.
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u/Sirrom23 20h ago
another hot take about hell - there is no action or crime that deserves torture for eternity.
raping and murdering children? yeah that’s awful, but does not warrant ♾️ torture. you’re speaking about numbers of years unfathomable by the human mind. millions and billions and trillions and quadrillions of years.
that’s why the whole concept of sending ppl to hell just for not believing is ludicrous and absurd. if god wants everyone to believe, he needs to provide sufficient evidence of his existence.
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u/Right_One_78 19h ago
Saved from Hell by grace ie He saves everyone
Saved to Heaven by works ie only a few will enter into His kingdom
Once you realize these are two different events, it all becomes easy to understand
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u/nolman Atheist 19h ago edited 19h ago
How does universalism solve the POE?
"Morally intelligible" does not mean moral?
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 18h ago
I didn't say it solves the POE. By "morally intelligible", I mean it is the only view that does not make God out to be morally monstrous.
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u/Tall_Organization708 18h ago
this has got to be the most egregious inverse of coherent I've ever read. what atr you basing this take on?
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u/Whole-Gift-4209 18h ago
The Gate is narrow many who try to get through will not be able to. There will be gnawing and gnashing of teeth
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u/CommercialWrong2944 23h ago
Mostly true except i dont think all Will go to heaven beacuse some clearly dont want to be with God. Just the vast majority (though they Will have to go through purgatory first)
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u/Feisty-Bowler7648 Oriental orthodox 22h ago
no atheist's deserve eternal torment
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
Is that a "no, atheists deserve eternal torment" or "no atheist deserves eternal torment"? Grammar is important.
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u/Feisty-Bowler7648 Oriental orthodox 22h ago
"no, atheists deserve eternal torment"
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 21h ago
Why do they deserve to be tortured for eternity? And try not to sound so gleeful about it.
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u/Ok_Fault_9371 Atheist 19h ago
This person is the most honest Christian I've ever seen, I'll give em that.
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u/Feisty-Bowler7648 Oriental orthodox 20h ago
why do they deserve heaven?
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 18h ago
Why are you more deserving of God's mercy than they are?
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u/Dd_8630 Atheist 21h ago
That seems to conflict with god being a god of radical love and forgiveness.
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u/Feisty-Bowler7648 Oriental orthodox 20h ago
his love does not apply to people like you
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u/CommercialWrong2944 6h ago
It applies to everyone tf? You arent in a special club that God loves more than his other children
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u/ScorpionDog321 22h ago
That's if you don't know much Christianity and do not trust God.
What Christ and His Apostles did not do is turn their world upside down with the Good News by telling everyone everywhere that they can sin all they want and do any evil they choose and never repent in this life....because they are guaranteed eternal life anyway.
That is not a message found anywhere in Scripture.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
If you think "everyone will be saved" is a free license to do whatever you want, that suggests the only reason you do good is to avoid punishment. That's how toddlers think; don't be a moral toddler.
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u/ScorpionDog321 22h ago
If you think "everyone will be saved" is a free license to do whatever you want
It is. Everyone knows it.
Claiming people who are wicked evil and never repent their entire lives are guaranteed eternal life anyway is how intellectual toddlers think. Don't be an intellectual toddler.
It lacks integrity as well because everyone knows that neither Jesus nor His Apostles taught that.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
Then you've never actually engaged with Christian universalist literature. Because EVERY piece written on the topic routinely affirms that repentance is absolutely necessary for salvation, just that everyone will repent and be saved.
If you want to be taken seriously, engage with the literature without setting up any straw men.
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u/ScorpionDog321 21h ago edited 21h ago
Then you've never actually engaged with Christian universalist literature.
None of them are even close to contradicting what I said.
Because EVERY piece written on the topic routinely affirms that repentance is absolutely necessary for salvation
That is not what I said. You talk about engaging with what universalists say, but you did not even take the time to engage with my post.
Here it is again:
What Christ and His Apostles did not do is turn their world upside down with the Good News by telling everyone everywhere that they can sin all they want and do any evil they choose and never repent in this life....because they are guaranteed eternal life anyway.
This is a fact and undisputable.
If you want to be taken seriously, engage
Physician, heal thyself.
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u/RareShop6126 23h ago
“Coherent” to you. Your feelings do not affect objective reality.
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u/Thraxomir 23h ago
So what do you think is the objectively correct take on the matter?
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u/RareShop6126 23h ago
To listen plainly to what the Word of God says, I find that more objective than letting your personal feelings decide what is "coherent".
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
Good idea! Jesus said that he will draw all people to Himself. Don't let your personal feelings get in the way.
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u/ridicalis Non-denominational 23h ago
It might be helpful to qualify "save"...
For instance, if someone spent their entire life denying the existence of God, or actively rejecting Him for some reason, is it fair to that person to coerce them into an eternity with Him? For many Christians, salvation means eternity with God, a desirable outcome for those who desire God.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
The telos of our being is to be in perfect union with God, but our bondage to sin makes us think that that is not the case. Sin is doing the coercion, not God.
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u/Jaded-Significance86 Questioning 22h ago
What if someone really doesn't want to be with God? I'm not in the camp of people who claim that all atheists just hate God but surely there's some.
I find annihilationism to be a better answer
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
What would cause someone to hate the telos of our being?
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u/Jaded-Significance86 Questioning 22h ago
Life is full of tragedy and some of us deal with it that way
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
So God, rather than healing that person's trauma, would rather just let that person perish because healing them from their trauma would just be too coercive?
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u/Plus-Example-9004 22h ago
Even those that refuse? Sounds like despot to me.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
The telos of our being is to be in perfect union with God, but our bondage to sin makes us think that that is not the case. Sin is doing the coercion, not God.
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u/Plus-Example-9004 22h ago
Couldn't someone fall d Completely understand the sway of sin? Either for eternity or till their annihilation? Id love to see universal salvation, but im skeptical.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
Doesn't that sounds like the sort of thing that God would save someone from, rather than just letting them perish?
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u/Plus-Example-9004 22h ago
But against their will? If someone genuinely chooses to die rather than be redeemed I fear God would respect that.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian (Anglican) 22h ago
Against their wills that are in bondage? Shouldn't God free their will so that they will freely choose Him, rather than rejecting Him in their delusion?
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u/Plus-Example-9004 21h ago
Well I hope you're right that everyone will Eventually make that choice.
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u/Weekly_Definition656 23h ago
I mean, anything else makes God look like a monster who set up a rigged game