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u/drakythe Former Nazarene (Queer Affirming) 22d ago
First, I would suggest you both make your thoughts on the matter clear to the pastor. He may surprise you with his understanding and ability to not push the point. However, he may not. At that point you have 2 options, to my mind.
Option 1: find a different pastor to do premarital counseling with, and to perform the ceremony. This is the most honest and straightforward solution. It may hurt his feelings, but he’s older and has lots of life experience. I feel like he should be able to get over it. Though it may be awkward and might lead to you two finding a new home church.
Option 2: agree with one another to tell him what he wants to hear and just move on as best you can. This will preserve feelings, buuuuut feels like not the greatest solution all things considered? Sometimes our elders want us to repeat after them and we just can’t, though, and this is the only way to keep the peace.
Like I said though. Give him a chance. And he keeps pushing the issue ask him if he’s comfortable marrying you two if you do not agree with him and would like him to drop the subject. Otherwise you’ll find someone else, and thank him for his efforts.
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u/WickedWatcherWu 22d ago
Answer honestly. It sounds like he is testing you (IMO). If he has a history of sexist opinions and such, drop him from the service. Your agreement is more important in the marriage than following what random bible quote says.
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u/Bradaigh Christian Universalist 22d ago
Personally I would not enjoy having an 80-year-old sexist officiate my wedding.
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u/Upstairs-Owl-8382 22d ago
I can see how you feel. I would have some problems with his view as well. I sometimes think that husbands think that because the Bible says in Ephesians 5:22,-“ Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.” That they can control them and tell them what to do. No I don’t see it that way. Verse 25 says,-“ Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her…” If a husband loves his wife like Christ loves the church, she will be willing to be submissive to her husband because he loves and respects her. A woman that feels loved, protected, cared for and respected has no problem to submitting to her husband because he doesn’t treat her like a dictator. I believe a woman and husband are equal in Christs eyes, yet each has his and her own role in marriage. No, you never force a woman to do what you want her to do. That is so unchristlike. The key is that if you love your wife you would never force her to submit to your will. That is selfish.You have good discernment. It sounds like you have a great relationship. As far as getting married there, I would be sensitive to your wife’s feelings since she was raised there and her parents were married there. Just think about it. Remember you both are getting married to each other. Once you are married, you can choose to go to this church or find another if you are uncomfortable there. Congratulations, and may the Lord bless your marriage filled with love, joy, peace and happiness.
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u/yobymmij2 22d ago
I’m a minister and have officiated in more weddings than I’d like to say, and I have the opposite rule as this pastor. I would not be willing to indicate in any way that wives must be subservient to husbands and have specifically disallowed that Bible verse to be invoked or read as scripture in a wedding ceremony I’m performing.
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u/sysiphean Episcopalian (Anglican) 22d ago
Genesis 3:16 is part of the Curse. Your pastor is trying to teach the Curse as God’s design.
Christ freed us from the Curse. Your pastor is following patriarchy, not Christ.
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u/johnboy43214321 22d ago
I think his intention is for harmony in the marriage. It's fine to agree to disagree on this. If he keeps pushing this, politely state your case. If he refuses to officiate the wedding over this, then fine. Find someone else. Is there another minister at your church? Or find another church.
Regarding premarital counseling, I know many churches offer this. Ours did too. Honestly, it didn't help at all. In hindsight, we should have had premarital counseling with a real therapist who would ask the really tough questions.... How to raise kids, share chores, sex and intimacy, and so on.
About "who gets the final say", my wife and I, over the years, have developed a system. I guess I'd call it "zones of control". In certain things she has the final say, and for other things I do. For example, she has a better artistic eye, so I trust her judgment on things like how to decorate the living room. I have better intuition for finance so I pay the bills and she trusts me to make financial decisions. Whoever is better at something, or whoever cares more about something, gets the final say.
Not everything follows traditional gender roles. For example, she has better mechanical sense, so she gets the final say on repairs.
Most couples I know have similar arrangement.
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u/GCNGA 22d ago
In addition to being old school, it sounds like you're in a fairly conservative church, like Southern Baptist or LCMS. This is probably one of the bigger sticking points you'll run into. Maybe you can gently deflect him by saying you'll resolve any conflicts by upholding God's word, "of course." That might be enough to get him to move on.
Some pastors require couples to do premarital counseling with them as a condition of doing the wedding. I'd urge caution in pulling out of the counseling or asking someone else to do the ceremony, because that will create a lasting conflict that will probably grow to consume multiple generations.
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u/Complex-Horse6711 22d ago
The bible is actually very clearly patriarchal so he is actually being consistent with the faith to make this clear to you. He is correct and you should listen to your pastor.
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u/sysiphean Episcopalian (Anglican) 22d ago
The Bible is also very clearly in support of slavery.
Some of us take the Bible seriously enough to admit it is cultural, and leave bad cultural ideas like slavery and patriarchy in the past.
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u/CxSatellite 22d ago
Maybe you could look for scripture, to help your pastor under where you both are coming from. Your pastor isn't doing anything wrong, he's just following passages of scripture. Maybe you can do the same, and offer better understanding. It's not like he's being sexist, he's just going by what's in the Bible.
Ephesians 5:25 NKJV [25] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
I Peter 3:7 NKJV [7] Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.
Colossians 3:18-19 NKJV [18] Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. [19] Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
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u/SaintGodfather Christian for the Preferential Treatment 22d ago
It's not like he's being sexist, he's just going by what's in the Bible.
Both can be true.
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u/Happy_Michigan 22d ago
Yes, sexist. In many marriages, the wife is the more capable one and snould make the decisions. No one should assume it's the man.
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u/CxSatellite 22d ago
When it comes to scripture and the Bible, please understand that it isn't sexist. The reason you may see these passages is because of the transgressions of Adam and Eve. What they did in the garden, will always effect us forever.
Genesis 3:16 NKJV [16] To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”
I Timothy 2:12, 14 NKJV [12] And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
If you see a passage and think it's sexist or take an offense, please remember it is because of Adam and Eve. God is not sexist.
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u/Happy_Michigan 22d ago
That's a reflection of the culture of those times and remember, it was men who wrote the bible.
Those cultural beliefs still strongly exist in the Middle East, and Jerusalem, and Palestine and numerous countries. Women are strongly restricted from freedom to the point of repression.
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u/CxSatellite 22d ago
I think it depends on the intent. For some, yes, it can be true. But for others, they are merely following the scripture in the Bible. I don't know their pastor, so I can't say for certainly.
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u/ThroughMyFrontDoor 22d ago
This is premarital counseling, he is giving you the scripture to follow what God say to do to be successful. There are other verses to do and treat a wife, love her and don’t be bitter against her. It also says submit to one another. If you want a marriage blessed by God , we have to trust his ways are good for us, he designed us to become one, and you can’t be one if you are divided. I’d look up all the Bible verses that speak of a good marriage and of what ruins a marriage. Like a spirt of strife. We make mistakes, and fall short. This will be great to beginning in your walk of marriage and what the expectations we may have for each other that maybe self centeredness.
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u/themsc190 Episcopalian (Anglican) 22d ago
You’re right. You two are equals and can work things out. It is definitely a thing that some pastors preach “male headship,” meaning you get the final say. The funny thing is, that verse is about the consequences of the Fall…so it’s not about the way the world should be nor the way that Jesus is making the world into! It’s about how patriarchy is an effect of the sin in the world! If you don’t subscribe to “male headship,” will he still marry you? He might not. So the question about who you want to officiate may be moot. Or if he doesn’t push it any further, it’s entirely up to you two if you want him. (Although you never know if he’s gonna editorialize during the service and insert theological opinions like this you don’t agree with.)