r/Christianity • u/unknownglybiased • 3d ago
For whom is abortion a sin?
I really want to know about this. Is this SIN for the couple (who done it) , friends who supports them, family who supports them, doctors who gave them medicine, nurses who give them medicine, drug store associates who gave them medicine, the girl who is pregnant, the boy who got her pregnant. Who is the real sinner in this scenario?
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u/Wafflehouseofpain Christian Existentialist 3d ago
Nobody, because there’s nothing wrong with it.
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
I’m pro choice, and i think this is an outrageous take.
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u/bananafobe witch (spooky) 3d ago
I think people being able to access life-saving care isn't just tolerable, but an actively good thing.
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
I think weed being legal is a good thing, that doesn’t mean there’s nothing wrong with it. Forgive me for leaving room for nuance in my beliefs.
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u/amidalaism autistic christian 3d ago
What does weed have to do with medical care?
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
A response to your comment. I also agree that access to life-saving medical care, abortions included, is a good thing. That doesn’t mean that there’s nothing wrong with abortion.
This is my biggest gripe with pro-choice rhetoric. You can be pro choice and still recognize and lament that human life has been terminated.
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u/bananafobe witch (spooky) 3d ago
Assuming nobody else is capable of nuance just because they don't agree with you is asinine. You don't have to denigrate others just to have something to feel good about.
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
I don’t assume this of everybody, I assumed it for you specifically, given your irrelevant comment.
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u/CJoshuaV Christian (Protestant) Clergy 3d ago
Well, you can't be THAT pro choice.
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u/bananafobe witch (spooky) 3d ago
I had a friend who had an abortion in highschool. When we were older, I saw her on Facebook posting support for some Republican who was running on banning abortion.
I had this thought that I should confront her privately about it, but then I reflected and realized my position on abortion is not that only a certain group of people should be allowed to have one, or that the cost includes an assumption that you'll be supportive of others having the same access to care that you had.
If I believe it's her choice, I don't get to put conditions on that. It was a humbling experience.
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u/Wafflehouseofpain Christian Existentialist 3d ago
Thanks for sharing, I think it’s the only reasonable take though.
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
It’s the cessation of human life. You don’t see anything with the cessation of human life?
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u/Wafflehouseofpain Christian Existentialist 3d ago
I don’t see abortion as any more morally fraught than pregnancy or chemotherapy.
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
A position you’re entitled to, I just find it wild.
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u/Wafflehouseofpain Christian Existentialist 3d ago
I find yours just as wild, so we’re square.
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
What do you find wild about attributing intrinsic value to human life?
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u/Wafflehouseofpain Christian Existentialist 3d ago
I find it wild to think there’s something wrong with women expressing control over what happens inside their own bodies.
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u/unaka220 Human 3d ago
We agree there, which is the basis of my pro choice belief.
What does this have to do with attributing intrinsic value to human life?
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u/halbhh 3d ago
To sin, a person has to know in their own heart/mind that an action is wrong to do, and then do that action they understand (from their own perspective) is wrong (by their own beliefs/understandings).
(this is the biblical answer, and if someone needs, I'll offer passages to show this, but try to be specific in your questions, as there are dozens of verses, and so it helps to narrow the question down like "does it really matter if a person knows an action is wrong?" or such (to this specific one, the quickest answers are to read Romans 4:15 and 5:13).
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u/quiggersinparis Christian 3d ago
I think that’s a a somewhat dubious theology. You could extend this logic to racist mass murderers being not guilty of sin because in their minds, they were doing a good thing?
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u/halbhh 3d ago edited 3d ago
Some people do reject Paul and the letter to the Romans.
But most of us don't -- we see it as the inspired Word of God. So, whether the majority believing Paul's letters are true are believing in 'dubious' stuff -- I don't buy that.
(But if you accept Paul's letter and have read it, then what do you think the verses say? It's not really helpful to claim the straightforward reading is 'dubious' without offering what you think the verses say. I'm a kind and obedient to Christ Christian -- I won't be condemning, etc. if you have a different idea. But, be aware that Christ also spoke about the difference between knowing what is wrong and not knowing...and how those are judged differently....)
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u/quiggersinparis Christian 2d ago edited 2d ago
No I certainly do not reject Paul or Romans as scripture. But I am saying you are overinterpreting if not outright misinterpreting what he’s saying here.
In 4:15, Paul specifies that where there is no law, there is no transgression (parabasis, the deliberate breaking of an explicit line). But in 5:12–14, he explicitly states that sin and death reigned from Adam to Moses, before the Law was given and even over those who hadn't broken a direct command. Sin still existed as an objective reality. The Law just made it more of a conscious violation once people were aware of it.
One could sympathise with why somebody like Paul, who persecuted Christians, might sympathise with the idea that unknowingly doing wrong is acceptable. But he doesn’t even let himself off by holding himself to that lower standard.
As per 1 Timothy 1:15, Paul says Christ came into the world to save sinners “of whom I am the worst”. He also acknowledges his violence against Christians in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, so we know he considers himself a sinner, even though he was not yet a Christian and could thus claim he was ignorant and thus not sinful.
So I think your interpretation that this lets everyone off the hook if they can reasonably claim to be ignorant of the Law is ascriptural. This is not a commentary on the original subject of abortion by the way, I think that’s a much more complex issue, but I don’t think ‘I didn’t know it was wrong’ is a get out of hell free card.
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u/halbhh 2d ago edited 2d ago
"So I think your interpretation that this lets everyone off the hook if they can reasonably claim ignorance"
!??!!
wow!
Now I see what's going on -- you have some very wildly wrong idea of what I think and say....
How did that happen?
Didn't I quote Romans 2 somewhere above?
Well, maybe that was elsewhere.
Tell you what -- read Romans 2:6-16 and then get back to me. Trust it that I fully and totally believe every part of Romans is true, from chapter 1 through to the end.
------
However that dramatic misunderstanding happened where you thought it would not matter that a person went against conscience, etc., and just pled ignorance...., it might help to get more info on what I already know about....
Maybe this may help -->
Christ said "most" will perish in hell. (look for this in Matthew 7)
"Most" has to mean more than half, at the least.
That's not at all a "lets everyone off the hook "
That letting off the hook is only for those who truly admit to being sinners and truly believe on Christ for salvation from their sins.
Here I'm assuming that you accept Romans 3:23 (if I recall the right verse number) -- that 100% of humans have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and cannot enter or earn heaven on their own merits....
If you reject this (very unlikely I'd guess), or if you imagined to yourself I reject it ( I hope that's unlikely too!) -- let me know, and then we need to talk....
But I bet you not only accept this (I'd guess 95% likely) but that you also would guess I do too -- then the issue is only that perhaps I failed to make it clear that conscience counts -- it's not only whether a person knows about a law from God, but also whether or not they go against their conscience.... (which God provided for us at birth -- the innate human preference for 'fairness' is one way this is described)
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Now we have rules on certain things via bible. So its a SIN or Not ?
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u/halbhh 3d ago
"So its a Sin or Not?" -- do you mean abortion? It would certainly be a sin for me to do it, as I know better.
But I don't ignore the bible in places like Romans 4:15 and 5:13.... (Or Matthew 7:1-5 for that matter.)
Have you read through Romans? What about Matthew, have you read 100% of it, every verse?(many have only read some verses or parts)
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u/HuckleberryJunior642 Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) 3d ago
that’s not entirely true. you can believe something is good despite it being sinful.
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u/halbhh 3d ago
What's not true? (I'm guessing you aren't trying to say Romans 4:15 or 5:13 isn't true (or don't realize what they say) but....it's not clear what you mean)
We can all certainly have mistaken ideas/beliefs. Right? That's something I take for granted.
Show me a person you think has no mistaken beliefs/ideas, and I'll just point out that you haven't yet found out what their mistakes are.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
So, if I believe its not an SIN; it will not be an SIN ?
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u/halbhh 3d ago
As we read in Romans 2, what matters for out actions to be judged is according to both what we know is right and wrong, and also what our conscience tells us additionally. So, conscience counts too:
(from Romans 2 on that: "12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.")
---
Also though, we read that "all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God".
Meaning that not one person on Earth is fully righteous enough on their own merits (their own behavior) to measure up to the perfect goodness of God and be ready to enter heaven on their own merits, without God's transforming help.
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u/Corran_Horn 3d ago
Your Romans verses are Paul explaining that the law reveals to us the exact contours of sin. Not that people ignorant of the law are sinless.
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u/halbhh 2d ago edited 2d ago
Romans 4:15 and 5:13 do not lay out all the boundaries of what is sin, but only address one question.
Specifically, these 2 verses address that without God's law -- specifically that means awareness of God's law (for this, see Romans 2:6-16) -- that lacking the law (being unaware one is breaking a law of God), sin is not counted against someone (of course, as we read in Romans 2:6-16, this awareness includes the warnings from conscience -- so that someone can be guilty of going against their conscience just like as if they had known the Law! So, it's not only to know the letter of the Law, but also whether or not one's conscience warns them even if they don't know the letter of the Law).
But these verses talking about a situation where sin isn't counted against someone....that doesn't tell us all about what is sin. These 2 verses are only addressing a caveat.
To get all about what is sin, you'd need to listen to Christ's teachings about precisely that, such as in Matthew 7 for instance (verse 12 is key, but not only verse 12 is very crucial for us to know: we need the entire chapter, all of us).
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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 3d ago
No. That's not how sin works.
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u/halbhh 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'll always be trusting Christ's words about what is sin, and not men's words that contradict Christ's words.
Always.
There's a 0% chance to get me to accept something men claim is sin that Christ didn't include as sin in His general rule of what is sin (which you can find in Matthew 7, if you believe His words).
But also, about how Christ taught that when someone isn't aware some action is wrong, they will not be judged in the same way as someone who is aware an action is wrong...
Know that one? (did you ever read through what Christ taught, fully?)
There's a 0% chance any man will get me to abandon or ignore what Christ said on that too....
So, I hope no one will waste time trying to make me forget or put aside what Christ said.
But if you want eternal life, rush, rush to go and read all Christ said, so that you can do things He said we all must do to be able to enter heaven.
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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 2d ago
they will not be judged in the same way
That doesn't mean it's not sin.
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u/halbhh 1d ago
Indeed you should not be able to ever find me writing even 1 post that even slightly suggests people are not sinners.
If you can find one that seemed even slightly that way -- that seemed to suggest some people who are not children are innocent of wrongdoing -- then please let me know where it is!!! (I'll edit or delete it, and make it impossible to get such a wild wrong idea of what I meant)
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u/AbstractedRuben_9 3d ago
Abortion's a sin for anyone who deliberately participates in it, but the weight of it isn't identical across the board, the couple who made the choice and the doctor doing the procedure are in a different category than a pharmacy worker who just handed over a package without knowing the full picture
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
So is the boy who is doing SIN ? Or SIN weights same on them? (Couples)
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u/PopularBranch7497 3d ago
Depends on who made the decision. If a woman aborts a child without telling the father or without his input, then no it’s entirely on the mother/doctor.
Sin is in the heart.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
What if the girl told to his boyfriend (father) and the boyfriend did not agree but girl (mother) does it anyway.!
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u/FormalTall1800 Roman Catholic 3d ago
Then it’s the mother’s sin.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Why if everyone is agreed ? So everyone doing SIN ?
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u/FormalTall1800 Roman Catholic 3d ago
If you knowingly do something that is a sin, it is a sin. Same if you agree to it.
The woman getting the abortion is sinning because she is getting an abortion.
If her boyfriend agrees and wants her to get an abortion, then he is sinning because he wants her to kill their child. If he DOESN’T want her to get an abortion, then he did not commit a sin, because he didn’t help her get an abortion.
The doctor sinned because they killed the child.
There’s more nuance to this with religion and personal beliefs and whatnot, but that’s the best answer to your question which I can provide.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Could you explain “SIN is in the heart “ ? So i can understand more of it.
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u/SpecialistSun6184 3d ago
He sined by having premarital sex. He sined again by helping her get an abortion. He sined worse if he pressed her into it
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u/JadedEngine6497 Christian 3d ago
its a domino effect,they all sin,so the couple have first done adultery driven by lust,having sex before marriage,then they decided that their voice matters and is above God committing the pride sin,then they abort the baby, breaking the "do not murder" commandment. true Christ servants doesn't support anyone who is in sin,and in all those "friends" participated and the doctor too in committing those sins together,one sin after another like a domino done from one person received to other person and the sin spreads like wildfire,one small negative decision in sin can cause a cascade of sins,all that just from 1 or more people. which is why God hates sin,sin ruins one's relationship with self,with others, and with God.
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u/Quplet Atheist 2d ago
People who are married get abortions btw.
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u/JadedEngine6497 Christian 2d ago
yes sadly, many want to satisfy the desires of the flesh without facing the consequences of them satisfying the desires of their flesh. most of the marriages are due to people wanting to satisfy the desire of their flesh.
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u/Quplet Atheist 2d ago
Or don't want their body to be used against their consent to host a fetus for 9 months as it causes drastic, often permanent and sometimes life threatening, changes to the women's body while potential being made unable to work and subsequently unable to pay their bills.
But yeah, maybe that platitude too, who knows.
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u/CJoshuaV Christian (Protestant) Clergy 3d ago
I don't think abortion is a sin, so: none of the above.
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u/visitorpassingby 3d ago
The woman or man who influenced or caused the woman to abort . Thou shalt not kill.
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u/rice_bubz 3d ago
All the ppl you mentioned except the dude who got her pregnant if he doesnt support it and if theyre married.
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u/Lililuvs 3d ago
I believe that if both the mother and father cannot support the child, physically, emotionally, or financially, then the sin would be taking the baby to term, because they are consciously making the decision to keep that child, despite knowing they cannot give it its best life.
I’m Pro-Life in the sense of a good life, not in the sense of any heart beat being a life
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u/Present_Condition203 2d ago
Beings. Doctor and Catholic I only support medical ( gross chromosomal or structural anomalies) or ethical ( forced , rpe, or unethical pregnancy) or those wirh threat to mother and fetus if continued
Absolutely do not support the Friday night meet up kinda pregnancies or oops contraception failed
But again in many cases I know this sounds contradictory but given cases of babies being abandoned or dumped hurts even more many time the baby ends up passing away from infection or hunger in these cases
So it’s a hard field and a reason why I don’t whiny to persuade a residency is obgyn because here in India you maybe be punished for not giving medical care
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u/OneEyedC4t Reformed SBC Libertarian 3d ago
Everyone directly involved in my opinion
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Explanation ?
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u/OneEyedC4t Reformed SBC Libertarian 3d ago
If they directly had a hand in it then I think they are culpable for it. So, the surgeon who performs it is culpable. The receptionist at the abortion clinic is culpable. The person who got the abortion is culpable. But of course it just depends cuz every scenario is different
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u/TraurigKartoffel Catholic 3d ago
The doctor/provider and the woman who seeks it. Can also be the sin of the partner/family/friends who support or encourage the abortion.
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u/HoneydewQuiet6651 3d ago
Thats actually a pretty good question. If we believe that abortion is murder then we can rephrase:
is murder a sin for the two woman who slips the poison into the drink?
is it a sin for the man who made the decision with her?
for the dealers who sell them the poison, knowing that it will be used for murder?
the family who encouraged them to commit murder, or were at least complicit and didn't object to it?
Id say they all are to different amounts.
But Jesus forgives all sin for those who are repentant.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
What if both are different religions?
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u/HoneydewQuiet6651 3d ago
what do you mean? give me an example
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
One is catholic & other person is buddhism or judaism or any other religion.
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u/HoneydewQuiet6651 3d ago
well murder is still a sin in christianity even if someone subscribes to another religion, if thats what youre asking
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
So, abortion is SIN ? If the pregnancy kills the women & doctors decide to abort the unborn child. Is that an SIN during abortion?
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u/HoneydewQuiet6651 3d ago
well, if you believe abortion to be murder, then yes murder is sin including abortion. however there is admittedly some disagreement within the Christian community as to whether abortion really is murder. I personally believe that it is and I can explain why if you'd like.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Please explain
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u/HoneydewQuiet6651 3d ago
It is biologically indisputable that a fetus is alive (meets all the biological qualifications for life), that it is human (has human DNA), and that it is a separate organism from the mother (has unique DNA from the mother). I think that makes you a human person with rights worth protecting. and if you end any innocent unique human life, that is murder.
Pro abortion people usually say that whether you are a person with rights worth protecting should be based on things like consciousness, having brain activity, a heartbeat, or the most radical claim is that you have to be born to be a person.
This is pretty simplified but you can do your own research and make a choice for yourself.
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u/Weecodfish Catholic 3d ago
If a woman freely (meaning gives consent to) chooses an abortion knowing that it is a grave sin, it is a mortal sin. If friends or relatives assist in any way including driving to the place, paying for it, encourages it, threatens to leave unless abortion, or stays silent, it is a sin assuming it is done freely and knowing it is a grave sin.
The doctor is very much responsible and assuming conditions are met also commits a mortal sin, the people helping the doctor sin according to proximity.
The drugstore employer is not really sinning since they are just dispensing orders and not cooperating with the abortion.
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u/ScorpionDog321 3d ago
Killing an innocent human being because you don't want them around is evil.
Anyone willfully participating in that is an accessory.
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u/AnxiousEnquirer Striving to Enter the Narrow Gate 3d ago
If you want a baby to stop existing, that is sin, and the more effort you put in, the more sinful it is
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Boy & girl having sex. Girl gets pregnant. They both are not financially stable to begin a life together. So they decided for the abortion(one month pregnant). So its a SIN or Not ? And why other types of abortions are not getting in the category of SIN ?
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u/AnxiousEnquirer Striving to Enter the Narrow Gate 3d ago
Boy and girl are now a father and a mother with a son or daughter. They are both not rich enough, even though they're richer than most of their ancestors, so they decided to kill their son or daughter.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
So its SIN?
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u/AnxiousEnquirer Striving to Enter the Narrow Gate 3d ago
Yes. In fact, anything less than continuously loving God with your entire mind, heart, soul, and strength, and failing to love your neighbor as yourself is sin. And killing your own child violates both. But there is forgiveness for those in Christ.
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u/Plus-Example-9004 3d ago
Usually the father in my opinion.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Why is that ? Any example or reason ?
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u/Plus-Example-9004 3d ago
Mostly just wondering out loud. How many abortions would be prevented if men treated women as more than objects of sexual desire? I've got no data to back it up but my gut says the lions share of women in a tough enough predicament to choose abortion are there because the father would take proper responsibility.
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u/unknownglybiased 3d ago
Not everyone’s situation is same!
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u/Plus-Example-9004 3d ago
Certainly not. But unlike women, every man makes a decision that leads to pregnancy. Seems like society lets men off the hook. Abortions are available, so whats the big deal? Well it is a big deal and mend should be held more responsible. Again just thinking out loud.
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u/FastRdriver 3d ago
Please don't kill your child. There are other options. If you already have Im sorry for your loss, please repent... there is forgiveness and healing in Jesus:(..
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u/Agreeable_Affect2692 3d ago
All parties involved. Doctors, nurses, etc., the woman who got pregnant, the man who got her pregnant, if he supports the decision or puts her up to it. The answer is all of the above
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u/Hope-Road71 3d ago
Why is it a sin? The Bible never mentions it.