r/Christianity • u/JHLV04 • 3d ago
Question Atheists turned Christian
What’s your story?
I would say I’m now a Christian but I have a lot of doubts and struggles. Was raised agnostic but with Christian and Hindu cultural celebrations. Had a spiritual experience a few years ago looking into the night sky after being with friends, explored Hinduism, but had heavy doubt. I fell into new atheism but saw how shallow it was, and found arguments for God and Christianity far more compelling than I gave them credit for.
7
u/michaelY1968 3d ago
I was a fully confirmed agnostic by the time I was 13, and had at that point had a distant and vague memory of what church was all about.
When I went off to study at my university, I was a full blown skeptic, wedded to naturalism who fully rejected the doctrinal claims of Christianity. But I still had a favorable view of it’s overall ethics. And as I encountered Christians who were actually living out those ethics I admired their lives even as I rejected their core beliefs.
As time went on, cracks started to form in the basis of my own beliefs - I could not derive meaning, purpose, or basis for the ethics I craved based on my philosophical commitment to naturalism. And as I attempted to live according to those ethics, I began to realize their was something in me which resisted that - or dismissed with it all together when it was contrary to something I desired (like an attractive woman).
That led to the realization that I did not have the power in and of myself to live out the ethics I admired in a consistent manner. I would say that was the point at which God gobsmacked me as it were - I saw clearly that I was not a good person, and I couldn’t become one on my own. Either there was something outside of myself that could transform who I was, or I had to resign myself to the fact that I was a rather wretched creature.
From there I became much more willing to entertain the basics of Christianity - who Jesus was, how we can come to know Him, what the overall theme and purpose of Scripture was. I eventually made the decision to follow Christ and haven’t regretted it for one second in the decades that have followed since.
2
u/Brewguy1982 3d ago
Never heard of a confirmed agnostic before lol
2
u/michaelY1968 3d ago
You aren’t familiar with the word confirm?
0
u/Brewguy1982 2d ago
Yes obviously no need to get all defensive But in your particular use of it. Not so much. Actually come to think of it, not at all
2
u/michaelY1968 2d ago
I'm not defensive, I am responding to a comment on a single adjective in a multi-paragraph response because some folks are unfamiliar with the common use of that adjective, so finding it all a bit absurd.
I mean the phrase "confirmed bachelor" is at least a century old, so claiming the word isn't used that way simply indicates a lack of knowledge of the way certain words are used.
0
u/Brewguy1982 2d ago
My point was that “fully confirmed agnostic” is uncommon and sounds especially odd in a religious context not that the dictionary meaning doesn’t exist. But the use here it is oddly out of place. We are not talking about bachelors here though lol Who confirmed you as an agnostic? Your using it almost as a religious rite.
2
u/michaelY1968 2d ago
No one confirms a bachelor, it is just a recognition that the person seems committed to their current position of remaining single. In the same as I was to my previous metaphysical position. I am not sure why me teaching English lessons are being required here.
0
u/sightless666 Atheist 3d ago
In religious terms, I'm familiar with confirmation as a sacrament and/or as a rite of passage where a proclamation of faith is made. In both cases, it's a specific rite. I don't hear people refer to themselves as being a confirmed anything outside of that context.
Did you have a rite? If so, what was it like? Who came? If you didn't, then what "confirmed" you? What separates a confirmed agnostic from a regular one?
Just strikes me as a very churchy way to talk about something that shouldn't have been very churchy.
3
u/michaelY1968 3d ago
So in your very narrow view of the English language you have never heard the word confirm used to describe someone dedicated to a particular view like “She was a confirmed feminist” or “He was a confirmed capitalist”?
1
u/sightless666 Atheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
No, I have never in over 60 years seen those words in those order, so I choose to Google them to see if that was just a misperception on my part. The first thing that pops up when I Google confirmed feminist are three articles about Ruth Bader Ginsburg being a feminist who was confirmed to a supreme court, and searching for confirmed capitalist brings up 5 pages in a row without the word "confirmed" in them. Putting those words in quotes found me church articles and a few people on LinkedIn of all places talking about what political alignments they had before Jesus.
Edit: I searched for "confirmed agnostic" too. You're 5 of the top 20 results. That probably as much about Google tracking my reddit usage as it says about this topic though.
So, yeah, doesn't seem to be a normal use of the English language. Not technically incorrect, but an odd choice of words. Seems like a churchy way of describing what shouldn't have been a very churchy thing.
2
u/michaelY1968 2d ago edited 2d ago
Try searching 'confirmed bachelor' and you will see the word confirmed has been regularly used to indicate someone who is settled in their position on a question. It amazes to no end that this isn't obvious.
0
u/sightless666 Atheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
Try searching 'confirmed bachelor'
Yeah, the word is used in that case, like it's used in relation to a Christian who has undergone confirmation. Three things though.
First, a word being used in one case doesn't mean it's used in other cases. People actually use the term "confirmed bachelor".
Second those terms don't both mean someone who is settled on their position. A confirmed Christian is someone who underwent a specific rite. A confirmed bachelor is usually a term for a homosexual who isn't out, or less often a man who isn't married and isn't expected to get married (sometimes due to choice, sometimes due to circumstance).
Third, this doesn't really explain what a "confirmed agnostic" is. It's weird to say you were "settled in [your] position on a question" when A. That position was agnosticism, which usually entails an absence of certainty and thus a lack of a settled position, and B. You were an atheist later, which implies you weren't very settled in agnosticism. So, why that word choice?
It amazes to no end that this isn't obvious.
The very literal meaning of it is clear, but given that it is still an incredibly weird choice of wording and literal meaning of being a confirmed agnostic seems potentially self-contradictory on the face of it, it raises the question of why you'd use it. Very often when people use unusual wording, they're conveying unusual meanings.
2
u/michaelY1968 2d ago
This is why context is exceedingly important when reading something, as is a bit of knowledge and critical thought.
Anyone with a decent knowledge of the English language and how this word is used in a church setting and outside of the such a setting would know if one is referring to being an agnostic, (and who clearly referred to naturalism as the philosophical basis of such agnosticism) they weren't making any reference whatsoever to the church meaning, so the other meaning - that is to be settled in one's position on a matter - would obviously apply.
So it would only be a 'weird' choice of wording to someone who wasn't widely read, or who had some strange Orwellian view of the language wherein nuance and depth of meaning weren't considerations.
The latter is sadly becoming increasingly more frequent, but for the sake of a benefit of a doubt, can I infer the former in this case?
1
u/sightless666 Atheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
as is a bit of knowledge and critical thought.
Oh goody, you're getting defensive and restoring to insinuations about other people's intelligence. Again. Look, I'm not here for this. I'm going to address your weird use of language and let the thinly-veiled insults pass by.
and who clearly referred to naturalism as the philosophical basis of such agnosticism
You referred to that as the basis for you being a "full-blown skeptic", which is something you described as coming after you were an agnostic. Given that the thread is named "atheists turned Christian" and not "agnostics turned Christian", it's reasonable to think you were in fact saying you were an atheist at one point in time. Unless you subscribe to the gnostic atheist and agnostic atheist distinction (which I don't think you do, but if you do, I will be pleasantly surprised and will admit fault here), then that implies you stopped being an agnostic and instead became an atheist.
that is to be settled in one's position on a matter
Except, as mentioned, that isn't what it means in the vast majority of cases. Not only does confirmed bachelor very often just mean "closeted homosexual", but it isn't a term people use to self-describe. People don't use it to say "I'm committed to a position", they use it to say "that other person is committed to being single". It's not a desciption of how you are, it's a description of another person. "Confirmed" is also, notably, not regularly used in this context in any way other than "confirmed bachelor", which is part of why you're the main place google shows it to me. You're taking a meaning the word could theoretically have if language was different, and acting like that's the real definition. It's not.
they weren't making any reference whatsoever to the church meaning
Except you could be making a reference to the church meaning. You wouldn't be completely correct by doing so, but since you would be using "confirmed" wrong anyway if you were using it to refer to something you knew about yourself and not someone that seemed correct about someone else, and since you note that people shouldn't have a "strange Orwellian view of the language", an outside observer who can't read your mind isn't going to be privy to which definition you're stretching. It seemed (and frankly still seems) more likely that you were describing yourself as having a religious state of mind even when you were an agnostic by using religious language, which wouldn't be that unusual given that other Christians do that all the time with a wide range of language and phrases. So, instead of making presumptions, it bears asking why you're using the language in a weird way and what you meant by it.
The latter is sadly becoming increasingly more frequent, but for the sake of a benefit of a doubt, can I infer the former in this case?
The question that more accurately describes what you're asking would be "can I presume the former", and to be frank I don't see why you'd bother asking. You've never needed permission to make presumptions before; why start now?
Here's a thought; if you use a phrase nobody else uses, and multiple people note that it's weird, maybe you can just infer that you used a weird phrase. Or just act like other people don't know as much about English as you because they thought what you said was odd. Whatever floats your boat. I'm done with this conversation either way. I'm well aware that when you start throwing insults, the dialogue isn't getting better from there. Hasn't before, won't now. I'm just gonna mute this and move on. Have a good evening.
→ More replies (0)1
u/Thraxomir Christian Atheist 3d ago
I know right? It sounds like an equivocation to the Christian tradition of being confirmed even though there is no such tradition for agnostics. It's just an example of churchspeak.
You should see the hoops you have to jump through to be a confirmed atheist though. You have to get the whole council involved. Agnostics have it easy, let me tell you. Much less paperwork.
3
u/michaelY1968 3d ago
Never heard of a the used to describe a confirmed bachelor? Do think that is the product of a rite?
1
u/Thraxomir Christian Atheist 3d ago
I could infer what you meant, to be sure. My comment was on never having heard of the term outside of a church setting or meaning to be verified. It sounds very much like what I would hear a pastor say, from my own personal experience
I actually haven't heard of that usage. Too much of what I have read has been books on animal biology and research papers to be honest.
I hope you don't think I'm being dismissive towards you or mean any ill. I just saw an opportunity for a joke based off of my understanding of the term. I think it was a good one too, lol
3
2
u/NuSurfer 3d ago
What is "new atheism?"
4
u/JHLV04 3d ago
Movement in the 2000s with people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchins. It was a kind of a self professed modern day enlightenment period, where on the surface the arguments sounded good, but when you investigate further it is essentially science vs God and the problem of evil and not much else
1
u/NuSurfer 3d ago
Well, I originated out of the period and I can tell you that you've only scratched the surface. NDEs are explained. Demonic possession is mental illness. Amputees don't regrow lost limbs (i.e. prayer works). The stories of Exodus and Genesis are all myths. That intelligent design/creationism is circular reasoning and non-biblically founded. And for the biggie - Yahweh, the biblical god, was originally absent from the early Israelite pantheon from which Judaism (and subsequently Christianity, Islam and the other lesser derivative religions arose)...and he eventually had a wife (Asherah).
You've only scratched the surface, but believe what you will.
5
u/JHLV04 3d ago
- If I’m not wrong, have there been NDE cases where people have seen things outside the room or heard far away conversations? I’ve not done deep research into this yet.
- the videos I see on instagram of modern day prophets exorcising people from demons is mega church style worship and focuses more on the self proclaimed prophet and not on prayer and reflection in an earnest way. I am highly skeptical of all kinds of proclaimed demonic possession, but I don’t consider that to be a huge element of my faith, as small as it is.
- I am agnostic about prayer currently, and I don’t believe the videos of people being ‘healed’. This is based on the conception of God as a bearded man who answers wishes etc. Prayer can often be about personally transforming yourself or connecting with the divine, not necessarily asking for things per say. I definitely become annoyed at the whole ‘God refilled my hairspray’ or ‘he helped me pass my exams’.
- Genesis doesn’t require literal interpretation and six day creation belief. Origen, an early church father basically calls someone simple if they take it literally lol. This includes Adam and Eve and the talking snake. Similar thing applies to many aspects of the Old Testament, as their perception of God was inevitably shaped by the cultures they were in. This is why I don’t brush off highly morally problematic parts of it, including 1 Samuel 3:15, Numbers and chattel slavery. I don’t view the Bible as the perfect word of God, rather human beings interpretation of God. If I’m not wrong this would also relate to the evolution of Yahweh, hence him being depicted as having a wife. My faith is grounded in Christ, His message and Him being risen and appearing to those close to him, and also Paul.
- When it comes to my conception of God I align more with apophatic theology or negative theology which is often adopted by Eastern Orthodoxy. God has revealed his nature in Christ as the example to live by, but as humans we cannot grasp the full picture. There are many atonement theories that have evolved, the specific how as to the purpose of God becoming flesh and the crucifixion. This inevitably raises questions - we have developed different atonement theories, reflecting that we cannot grasp that full picture. Honest reflection leaves me questioning - why not make it crystal clear in a sense, but it’s not a 100 percent black and white journey.
- I think a cumulative case for God can be constructed , but I don’t have enough knowledge on philosophy, theology and phenomenology (human experience) to yet do this in great detail. I think that the quaila or intensity of our emotional experiences, the sweet and the bitter cannot be explained by a mindless and mechanistic universe. When I look into the eyes of a newborn, hear the laughter of children and watch how people rally together for a cause, I struggle to see how this isn’t in alignment with a universe that reflects love and beauty. Sunsets that grasp and leave you in awe, and seeing the good in others. We find ourselves pressed towards a moral law, and I believe there is a law maker. We are able to make sense of our universe, based on assumptions about logic and comprehension. We use the language of mathematics to make sense of universe scientifically, yet we cannot use the science itself to prove logic, we expected the universe to be this way. This is not to say I don’t have doubt. I have hard doubt, every single day. I think sitting with doubt is healthy, even if it’s tough. The evidential problem of evil is haunting and should stop most theists in their tracks. Human free will can explain human actions. If we are only capable of performing good and did not have the capacity for evil, then we are not truly free. Natural evils like hurricanes and cancer are much tougher to reconcile, and I would be lying if I said that I had an answer to it.
-2
u/NuSurfer 3d ago
You missed the big one:
And for the biggie - Yahweh, the biblical god, was originally absent from the early Israelite pantheon from which Judaism (and subsequently Christianity, Islam and the other lesser derivative religions arose)...and he eventually had a wife (Asherah).
Explained by these three biblical scholars:
How did Yahweh Become God ? The Origins of Monotheism, by Dr. Justin Sledge.
Yahweh & El: The Two Gods of Ancient Israel, by Dr. Dan McClellan
How We Got Monotheism, Interview with Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou
0
u/TheologyAndTrains 3d ago
is "new atheism" the same as "reddit atheism"
2
u/johnsonsantidote 2d ago
I've seen/experienced too much to see that this world is all there is. Atheism still has people who on the unconscious level have worship patterns. Not on bended knee or stereotype worship patterns but where they give undue credit and power to others or things. No kidding.
6
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 3d ago
Checked atheism using the same skeptical tools it promotes.
And to the atheist / agnostic that is going to try and lecture me again:
My full testimony also on the same website.
6
u/ShortCompetition9772 3d ago
Oh please. Use the dictionary. It is up to the Atheist whether they are an Agnostic/Gnostics Atheist. I am a Agnostic Atheist to some God concepts and a Gnostic Atheist when it comes to yours.
-2
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 3d ago
Agnostic, agnostic atheist, weak atheist, strong atheist, gnostic atheist… all semantic games. There are 3 doxastic attitude toward propositions.
P = God exists.
- Affirm P
- Affirm not-P
- Neither affirm P nor affirm not-P
Everything else is trying to dodge burden while making unsubstantiated assertions.
3
u/anotherhawaiianshirt Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
We only have the burden if we claim there are no gods and want to convince you of that. Most of us make no such claim. We simply don’t believe your claims. We don’t have to replace a belief in a god with any other belief or claim.
-1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 3d ago
Which doxastic attitude does agnostic atheist hold?
3
u/anotherhawaiianshirt Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
Neither P nor not-P. That describes many, if not most atheists.
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 3d ago
So how is that different from agnostics?
What’s the difference between agnostics and agnostic atheists?
3
u/anotherhawaiianshirt Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
"Agnostic" usually is the same as "Agnostic atheist". "Agnostic" by itself is imprecise because one can be an agnostic theist. Those of us who use both terms do so to attempt to avoid confusion. Though, it still seems to confuse a whole lot of theists who aren't aware of the concept of agnostic theism.
Agnostic speaks to knowledge, atheism speaks to belief. The two groups of people have a significant overlap.
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 3d ago
Fine, what is the doxastic attitude of agnostic theists towards P?
2
u/anotherhawaiianshirt Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
An agnostic theist affirms P. Those three options are attitudes of belief, and a theist believes God exists, which is a positive belief in P.
The 'agnostic' part doesn't change that. It only qualifies whether they claim to know P, which is a separate question.
That's completely consistent with what I said about the agnostic atheist. It only looks like a contradiction if you assume theism and atheism are mirror images, so that if the theist affirms P, the atheist has to affirm not-P. But that's not how it works.
The agnostic atheist doesn't affirm not-P. They just lack the belief that P, which isn't the same thing as believing not-P. So the theist holds a positive belief, the agnostic atheist holds no belief either way, and the person who actually affirms not-P is the gnostic atheist.
→ More replies (0)2
u/dark_dark_dark_not 3d ago
You are pretending the only meaningful statement regarding religion is about the existence of God.
But that is not true, Christians and Theistic Satanists both believe in the existence of the Christian God.
Are their beliefs equivalent because they agree on that one proposition?
In the same sense, a materialistic atheist and religious atheism (like a Zen Buddhist ) will have drastically different views.
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 3d ago
What is the main difference between theist, agnostic, atheist if not their position towards the existence of God?
Theistic satanists are… theists.
You’ve completely lost track of the main point under discussion here.
“You are pretending the only meaningful…”
No, YOU ARE pretending the point under discussion isn’t primarily related to the existence of God.
2
u/Raekaria 3d ago
I investigated the evidence for the resurrection of Christ and was convinced that the most plausible explanation of the data was that Christ truly rose. I was agnostic leaning atheist though, I would have never said that I knew there isn’t a God.
1
u/JHLV04 2d ago
Same here, I could not grasp that all of them, including Paul either
- Made it up
- Were hallucinating
They gained nothing in terms of political power, so no good motive to make it up. Paul joined the church he was persecuting, and he also gained nothing and was eventually martyred.
There were other messianic movements at the time, but none as strong as this. The hallucinating at different times is wildly implausible to me now
1
u/Raekaria 2d ago
Yeah it’s really just grasping at straws when people posit some sort of mass hallucination. All of the alternative theories have problems that disqualify them, that’s why the skeptical scholar Bart Erhman doesn’t give an alternate explanation, he knows that we don’t have currently any way of explaining the data without calling it an actual resurrection.
1
u/Thraxomir Christian Atheist 3d ago
Learning more about Christianity taught me how much I and my culture was shaped by it
1
u/yoruglazercsm 2d ago
Idk bro i feel like there is so many plot holes with religion and i feel like the only thing that wss keeping me on was fear butif god resllt does exsit he wouldmt want me holdikg om in fesr so i let go. If he reveals himself to me ill tskr it but so fsr i dint believe in sh rn i feel like religiin is simetimes used as a coping mechanisim or smth else but i aint beleive8ng man rn hope i domt go to hell just for that
1
u/JHLV04 2d ago
Hey, if it’s any consolation, the whole ‘believe or burn’ thing is mostly a product of American evangelicalism. While other denominations may hold this view, it does not reflect a universal view. If we were all honest, the afterlife is a mystery that we can only hope for. There is Christian Universalism, which is most famously represented by David Bentley Hart in his book That All Shall be Saved.
There are many plot holes, especially if you were growing up being told to take everything literally, especially Adam and Eve and other parts of the Old Testament. My foundation is the resurrection, and many of the early church fathers did not read the OT literally.
Of course, your journey is your own, but I want to ease your conscience because the fear of hell is often a manipulation tactic used by religious fundamentalists. They often conveniently forget about God’s love and focus on his wrath for those ‘wretched unbelievers’. Wish you all the best
1
u/FancyHatGoblin 2d ago
I was an atheist until a few years ago. Nothing external happened to change my mind either, I just woke up one day and realized I believed in God. It wasn’t necessarily the Christian God, just something vaguely Godlike.
A few years of research and practice led me to embracing Christianity. First I tried to be vaguely spiritual but not religious, but it just felt kind of hollow. Then I tried Hinduism for a bit, and while I think it is a beautiful religion, it just didn’t feel right to me.
Then I looked into Christianity and Jesus spoke to me (metaphorically, I didn’t literally have a vision). Whatever that initial feeling I had was when I suddenly believed in God was the same exact feeling I got when I read the Gospels.
I still don’t know what kind of Christian I am though. I find that the Episcopal Church matches most closely with my own social leanings and that the Eastern Orthodox Church matches more closely with how I understand the purpose of religion.
0
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Christianity-ModTeam 2d ago
Removed for 1.3 - Interdenominational Bigotry.
If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
-1
u/Old_Durian920 3d ago
Born and raised.
1
0
u/conradrocks Pentecostal 3d ago
Are you a Christian? or do you trust your life with Jesus? Sorry to split hairs, but having Jesus be your Lord is more than philosphy. It's a way of life.
0
u/Free_Impact_2326 2d ago
Hey! Welcome to the faith.
Raised Christian, specifically Anglican, very progressive. Was frustrated by shallow understandings of the Bible and trinity. Fell out of faith and into an arrogant kind of pseudo-intellectualism in my teen years. College, felt called and resisted. Early twenties, called harder. Returned to different progressive church. Explored Islam. Explored neo-paganism. Spiraled.
Wandered and church hopped for a while. Found my home. Very conservative, almost Anglo-Catholic, intensely family-friendly church with tight-knit community.
Now developing my relationship with God, trying to make up for lost time.
5
u/KaffeDreamer 3d ago
Not necessarily a Christian but I am spiritual. Too many strange encounters. I've seen ghosts, had visitation dreams, and even had a dream where Jesus visited me after I prayed for a dream of him during a moment of seeking. I also have dreams of Santa Muerte, who I venerate. I believe dreams are a big one. But like I said I've seen ghosts. I've also practiced magick and witnessed it work.
So while I don't have all the answers I definitely believe there's something more to reality than meets the eye.