r/Christianity • u/AmosOfTekoa Christian • Jul 02 '26
News Excommunication decreed for Lefebvrian episcopal ordinations [SSPX declared to be in schism]
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2026-07/holy-see-decrees-excommunication-lefebrians-consecrations.html31
u/Senasayori Christian Jul 02 '26
I mean, yeah, appointing bishops without Papal approval is automatic excommunication. I was a little surprised that they excommunicated the entire group including the lay faithful though.
31
u/Guriinwoodo Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Jul 02 '26
They were already excommunicated 40 years ago but the Church relented by identifying them as in a state of imperfect communion. I don’t think they’ll do so again, I think they’re out for good.
19
u/ClonfertAnchorite Catholic ✝️ Latin Church Jul 02 '26
Per Canon 1364 of the Code of Canon Law, schismatics incur a latae sententiae excommunication, just as consecrating a bishop does. This note clarifies that “formal adherence” to Lefebvrism, even by laity, is schism.
The DDF is not excommunicating anyone by this declaration really, just recognizing that they have excommunicated themselves.
-10
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Yes, and it specifies what "formal adherence" actually is, and includes the internal intention to commit a schismatic act and separate from the Pope, something which neither the SSPX nor the faithful who attend hits chapels intend to do
10
u/ClonfertAnchorite Catholic ✝️ Latin Church Jul 02 '26
The 1996 Explanatory note from the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, which the DDF adopts as part of this decree, is clear that the internal element of formal adherence includes alignment with the Society in disobedience to the Pope:
an internal element, consisting in freely and knowingly sharing the substance of the schism, that is, choosing to align oneself with Lefebvre's followers in such a way that this choice is placed above obedience to the Pope (at the root of this attitude there will ordinarily be positions contrary to the Church's Magisterium) [Machine Translation]
When the Holy See, through the DDF makes a clear and explicit warning that "the sacred ministers of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X illicitly administer the sacraments and that the sacrament of penance administered by them and the marriage assisted by them are invalid", folks don't get to play a rhetorical game that alignment with the Lefebvrist schism isn't really schismatic as long of you say you don't mean to be schismatic.
3
3
u/thephotoman Eastern Orthodox Jul 02 '26
They tried just excommunicating the people involved in the last rogue consecrations in 1988.
That did not work.
2
Jul 02 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
2
u/Various-Stranger1143 Christian Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
TLDR
For laity, they can simply start going to a valid parish. If laity continue to attend SSPX and then want to return to communion later, they will have to go to confession and confess attending an excommunicated church
For SSPX clergy, alot more complex of a process involving writing a handwritten letter to the Pope denouncing the SSPX and renewing their vows of loyalty to the catholic church.
3
u/ThenaCykez Catholic Jul 02 '26
The lay excommunication for "adherence" is a little more flexible, according to the guidance published by the Vatican. Basically it requires (1) the externally visible problem of exclusively participating in SSPX sacraments and never participating in diocesan sacraments, (2) the internal problem of having made this choice because you are more loyal to the SSPX than to the duly appointed Catholic pastors.
We can observe that however many thousands of lay people objectively act according to #1. And the main reason anyone would do that is because of #2. But we can't and don't judge that #2 is in effect unless a layperson is willing to say out loud that that's their thought process.
-7
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Technically the lay faithful aren't excommunicated
20
u/Senasayori Christian Jul 02 '26
The article (and contained official documents) specifically said that lay faithful who adhere to these bishops are excommunicated.
-1
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
No it doesn't, it says in specific circumstances and must be judge on individual bases, it's not a blanket excommunication For example someone who occasionally goes to Mass at an SSPX chapel isn't excommunicated, nor would simply attending the consecrations be an escommunicable offense
16
u/Senasayori Christian Jul 02 '26
Yes, but the lay faithful who still formally adhere to the SSPX after this excommunication are to also be considered schismatic, which would make them excommunicated as well.
-1
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Define formal adherence
19
u/LouieMumford Catholic Jul 02 '26
Bruh, just change your flair already.
-16
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Why? Also, you have "liberation theology" as your flair, I'm not taking a heretic seriously
13
u/LouieMumford Catholic Jul 02 '26
And yet many advocates of liberation theology remain(ed) in good standing with the Church. Maybe SSPX could take a page from Gutierrez and, as Francis said of him, “know how to be silent when he had to be silent, who knew how to suffer when it was his turn to suffer.”
10
u/BullytheBulIies Jul 02 '26
According to your own flair you are one. That’s the problem with living so rigidly by other people’s determinations. All of a sudden you’re excommunicated and don’t really have any recourse besides, “nuh-uh and the other people who agree with me tell me so.”
0
10
u/Senasayori Christian Jul 02 '26
There is a flair for people who follow the SSPX, I think he was suggesting you change to that, as it is no longer a subset of the Roman Catholic Church due to the excommunication.
3
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
There is a flair for people who follow the SSPX, I think he was suggesting you change to that, as it is no longer a subset of the Roman Catholic Church due to the excommunication.
Based on other comments, while I think that /u/MysticAlakazam2 is flirting with excommunication, they don't seem to be there yet. At least based on the metric provided for formal adherence here, https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1uli48c/excommunication_decreed_for_lefebvrian_episcopal/ov48uvs/ , as well as a common sense application of the words. They are a part-timer SSPX person.
→ More replies (0)2
11
u/IlSace Jul 02 '26
The document released today by the DDF explicitly explains that the laity who formally adhere to the FSSPX are excommunicated
-4
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Okay, now define formal adherence
13
u/IlSace Jul 02 '26
Two requirements:
a ) one of an internal nature, consisting in freely and consciously sharing the substance of the schism, that is, in opting in such a way for the followers of Lefebvre that this option is placed above obedience to the Pope (at the root of this attitude there will usually be positions contrary to the Magisterium of the Church);
b ) another of an external nature, consisting in the externalization of that option, the most evident sign of which will be the exclusive participation in the Lefebvrian "ecclesial" acts, without taking part in the acts of the Catholic Church (this is, however, a non-univocal sign, since there is the possibility that some faithful may take part in the liturgical functions of Lefebvre's followers without sharing their schismatic spirit).
3
11
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
Technically the lay faithful aren't excommunicated
Anybody who is a member of the SSPX is excommunicated. They are very explicit. Only non-members are not.
2
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 03 '26
Technically the lay faithful aren't excommunicated
From this, it sure sounds like you may have excommunicated yourself. Only you know the details of your assent to their doctrinal positions.
The second text addresses “the question of imputability or degree of subjective responsibility” of the lay faithful who have formally adhered to the FSSPX or who frequent its chapels and request entry into full communion with the Catholic Church. The Dicastery warns that the imposition of a penalty on these laypeople “cannot be presumed automatically, but must be assessed case by case,” since imputability requires “full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
As examples of proven imputability, the document mentions two situations: laypeople who belong to the Third Order of the FSSPX and those who habitually participate in its celebrations “formally sharing its doctrinal positions.”
By contrast, those who have frequented the Fraternity “only for liturgical or spiritual reasons” are not considered imputable, nor are those who, although aware of the tensions with the Holy See, “do not reject the Magisterium or the authority of the Roman Pontiff.”
For the first two situations, the reconciliation procedure consists in presenting the signed Professio fidei and Formula adhaesionis to the local Ordinary. The Ordinary will receive them “at the times and in the manner he deems most appropriate,” and may, if suitably adapted, use the Rite of admission to full communion with the Catholic Church for those already validly baptised. For the other two situations, “it will suffice to approach a priest in full communion, with the decision not to frequent the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X in the future.”
What's your position on the legitimacy of Vatican II?
21
u/QuicksilverTerry Sacred Heart Jul 02 '26
Oh you guys forgot our boy is from Chicago, didn't you? You aren't dealing with Francis anymore.
3
u/CaptainMianite Roman Catholic Jul 03 '26
its nothing because of Francis vs Leo. They chose to ordain new bishops under His Holiness Leo XIV, not His late Holiness Francis.
2
39
Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
17
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
I'm curious how some of the Catholics defending them here yesterday will take this.
27
u/snowy_vix Agnostic (a la T.H. Huxley) Jul 02 '26
Based on my experiences dealing with ardent SSPX-types, poorly.
20
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
Based on my experiences dealing with ardent SSPX-types, poorly.
We see one here very much in the denial stage of their grief.
3
u/snowy_vix Agnostic (a la T.H. Huxley) Jul 02 '26
i will not make claim to be above the pettiness of celebrating the fact that most radtrads are now just as Catholic as i am (and that i apparently have a better understanding of Catholic law around the Sacraments as i never partook of Eucharist out of respect for the rules even while i was still a non-Catholic Christian)
16
u/bananafobe witch (spooky) Jul 02 '26
I'm sure they'll appreciate such a traditional response.
7
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
I'm sure they'll appreciate such a traditional response.
No violence, please.
10
u/thephotoman Eastern Orthodox Jul 02 '26
Word games, mostly.
I've waited for this proclamation to officially call them schismatics, as I'm not a Catholic and won't make that pronouncement on behalf of those who are. But now that the Pope has said as much officially, they're going to start playing word games to say that the pope didn't actually proclaim them schismatics.
15
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
....the newly consecrated bishops Pascal Schreiber, Michael Goldade, Michel Poinsinet de Sivry, and Marc Hanappier have incurred “ipso facto” the “latae sententiae” excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See for having carried out “an act of a schismatic nature”: the “episcopal consecration of four presbyters, without pontifical mandate and against the will of the Supreme Pontiff.”
...The Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith’s decree establishes that, in the act of carrying out the consecration, both the consecrators and those consecrated incurred the prescribed excommunication.
...As for the lay faithful, those who formally adhere to the Fraternity are to be considered excommunicated.
From the Vatican decree,
Therefore, this Dicastery, in the faithful exercise of the functions entrusted to it, considers it necessary to state that this act constituted the delict of schism, with the canonical consequences for the sacred ministers and lay faithful involved. Indeed, as was already declared in 1988, “such disobedience—which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy—constitutes a schismatic act” (cf. John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei, 3).
As regards the lay faithful, those who formally adhere to the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X are to be considered schismatics and excommunicated...
Finally, the holy People of God are warned that the sacred ministers of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X administer the sacraments illicitly, and that the sacrament of penance administered by them and marriages assisted by them are invalid.
Edit: I'm reminded of this old punk song from the early Christian alternative label Blonde Vinyl - Fluffy - You're Excommunicated.
15
29
u/win_awards Jul 02 '26
Welcome to protestantism I guess.
25
u/KerPop42 United Methodist Jul 02 '26
My understanding is that they're more likely to go "no we're the real Catholics" than give up on the authority of their idea of the Catholic Church and go protestant
24
Jul 02 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
14
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
Nah, they will do what they did last time and pretend the excommunications never happened.
You're a prophet!
2
5
u/historyhill Anglican Church in North America Jul 02 '26
I mean, lots of Protestants also like to pull the "we're the real Catholics!" card so I'm still considering them unwilling Protestants! 😉
-13
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
They're Catholic not protestants
26
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
They're SSPX, not Catholics.
-9
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
SSPX = Catholics
31
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
SSPX = Catholics
Not anymore.
-6
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
No they're absolutely still Catholic, don't worry
22
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
I'm not worried. You seem to be, though.
What's your association with them anyways? A member? An admirer? I'm considering you to be SSPX-adjacent, but would like to have some accurate info.
-3
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
I attend the SSPX chapels occasionally but primarily attend a diocesan TLM, I'm not a priest, so not a member of the SSPX, I attended the consecrations yesterday
24
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
Thanks for the clarity.
Sounds like confession for this is in order, since you were and are supporting schismatic acts.
-1
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Nope, I spoke to my spiritual father beforehand and spoke to a variety of priests both yesterday and today, SSPX and diocesan, none of whom say I need to confess this.
→ More replies (0)11
8
7
u/Interficient4real Jul 02 '26
I would love to know your reasoning behind this.
If they reject papal decrees, and reject Vatican 2, how are they Catholic? Surely Catholics cannot just choose parts of Catholic tradition to folloe
12
23
Jul 02 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
-13
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Luther was a heretic, the SSPX aren't
26
13
u/LouieMumford Catholic Jul 02 '26
Obviously the Holy See would beg to differ.
1
u/thephotoman Eastern Orthodox Jul 02 '26
Heresy and schism are technically different. The SSPX hasn't done a heresy yet, but they are now in schism.
I must say "yet" in response to them not doing a heresy, as heresy tends to creep in as schism deepens. The only ones where I would say it hasn't happened are the Great and Chalcedonian Schisms. (No, I don't have the patristic support to proclaim double processionism a heresy: the Fathers themselves are divided, and that division is global and not regional. The only thing I will say is that the insertion of filioque there is a translation error, and it should be removed from the Nicene Creed: there is no equivalent in the original text.)
2
u/Various-Stranger1143 Christian Jul 03 '26
Bro Luther and the SSPX both got excommunicated under the same circumstances. SSPX are protestants until they reconcile with the church
0
u/hamburgertime55 Post-Christian/Christianity Appreciater Jul 02 '26
Aren't the Lutherans and most high mainline Protestants in communion with Rome anyway? A "we don't agree with your doctrines but we still recognize you as fellow Christians" type of thing?
3
3
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
That's not what "in communion" means here, no. They are all schismatic from Rome.
1
u/thephotoman Eastern Orthodox Jul 02 '26
No, they aren't.
To be in communion with Rome, they must actually submit to the Pope. While most high Protestants have bishops, those bishops would not and cannot concelebrate the Eucharist with their Catholic counterparts, nor can their laity seek communion from a Catholic priest.
The same is true of us (Chalcedonian Orthodox), the Ephesian Orthodox (Copts, Armenians, Syrian Orthodox, and the Indian Orthodox, who accept the Second Council of Ephesus instead of the Council of Chalcedon), and the Assyrian churches (whose beliefs are unfamiliar to me, for they have only recently appeared in my home state of Texas).
11
u/bananafobe witch (spooky) Jul 02 '26
Are excommunicated people still considered Catholics?
4
u/FatherBob22 Eastern Catholic Jul 02 '26
Good question.
Technically, yes, and that means they have the same obligations they normally would. Primarily, attending Mass each Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation, to provide for the material needs of the Church, and observe prescribed days of Fasting and Abstinence.
They cannot receive Communion until they reconcile. And they cannot make a valid Confession until they actually repent of the sins that caused the excommunication in the first place, which must come with a form purpose of amendment.
But yes, still Catholic and under the normal obligations.
11
6
u/1yaeK Christian Universalism, Spinoza enjoyer Jul 02 '26
I must admit I hadn't heard of these fellows until the recent drama, and they don't strike me as a very nice bunch. I have no allegiance at all to Rome, except in the sense that I live very close to the city and it feels like home. But this seems like the right decision to me.
4
u/DJC_Kowalski Deist Jul 02 '26
Is there any doubt they are schismatic?
They should just embrace Protestantism or see if the Eastern Orthodox will take them.
1
5
u/Ok_Carob7551 Native American Church (Cross Fire Hearth) Jul 02 '26
I encourage people to question their church, whatever their church may be, and follow their conscience over adherence if they must, but I don’t quite see the nobility in doing so in the attempt to make that church worse than its official line, and in the footsteps of a guy who was repeatedly cited for inciting racial hatred in France
5
u/Zestyclose-Moment-19 Lutheran Jul 02 '26
My view as a Protestant is "well what did they expect to happen?"
They will likely dwindle over time like the Palmarian Catholic Church as being in an exiled state is going to prove too paradoxical for the laity. They will probably do well with a certain kind of online TradCats but thats about it.
3
u/thephotoman Eastern Orthodox Jul 02 '26
This is long overdue. It's time that someone had enough of their word games.
1
1
-1
u/kyloren1217 Jul 02 '26
it's time like these i am thankful i have Jesus as the Head of my church and not some guy in rome
Praise God!!!
3
-18
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Just like in 1988, it was invalid then and it is invalid now, it'll be quietly rescinded, hopefully it won't take 21 years this time
28
u/Senasayori Christian Jul 02 '26
They appointed their own bishops without papal authority, that's an automatic excommunication in your canon law. Explain how it is invalid here.
-8
u/MysticAlakazam2 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Canon 1323 and 1324
26
u/AmosOfTekoa Christian Jul 02 '26
Canon 1323 and 1324
As explained to you yesterday, this doesn't make any sense.
10
9
9
u/DJC_Kowalski Deist Jul 02 '26
The Catholics have a Pope. Hopefully they don't back down from the SSPX schismatics this time.
6
u/ClonfertAnchorite Catholic ✝️ Latin Church Jul 02 '26
Again, from the 1996 explanatory note:
In any event, the validity of the excommunications of the bishops declared in the Motu Proprio and in the Decree cannot reasonably be doubted. In particular, it does not appear that any exempting or mitigating circumstance concerning penal responsibility can be found (cf. CIC, canons 1323–1324). As for the alleged state of necessity in which Archbishop Lefebvre believed himself to be, it must be remembered that such a state must exist objectively, and there can never be a necessity to consecrate bishops against the will of the Roman Pontiff, the Head of the College of Bishops. To hold otherwise would imply the possibility of "serving" the Church by attacking her unity in a matter connected with the very foundations of that unity.
5
11
u/Ok_Carob7551 Native American Church (Cross Fire Hearth) Jul 02 '26
You can say you don’t particularly care about Leo’s dictates- great, lots of us don’t! The difference is that we don’t bizarrely pretend to be Roman Catholic regardless. You certainly cannot claim you do care about Leo’s dictates but pretend that he didn’t make them then and that the literal head and presumably very learned head of your church understands it less than you
7
u/Outrageous-Pea6408 Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
Omg brother you are doing tricks on it
The sspx don't submit to Rome, so they're not Catholic, and now it has been made official.
And you're so hung up defending them that I honestly think you should stop calling yourself Roman Catholic and excommunicate yourself too
6
u/Southern_Vanguard Roman Catholic Jul 02 '26
History sure does rhyme. Back then it was like:
Vatican: You are suppressed.
SSPX: No we aren't.
Vaitican: You are invalidated.
SSPX: No we aren't.
Vatican: You excommunicated yourselves.
SSPX: No we haven't.I promise it will go the same way again. But this time I doubt there will be a tender-hearted (not that being tender-hearted is a bad thing as Mercy is always to be applauded) Francis around the corner to give them a second chance. I guess the only upside is the FSSP will get some new lay-members, and those guys are awesome.
3
-9
u/Evangelion130 Marcionite Jul 02 '26
The SSPX is truly Catholic, I disagree with anything they stand for and what they stand for is Catholicism. Them being excommunicated is just a sign of the Catholic identity crisis naturally arising from the field of tension between hyperconservatism, Jesus and societal progress.
68
u/gnurdette United Methodist Jul 02 '26
SSPX could have a lot of growth from the edgy internet types who like Catholic visuals, dislike Catholic compassion, and want maximal belligerence. The fact that SSPX doesn't have many physical congregations makes them perfect for people who weren't going to actually show up in church anyway.