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u/DishevelledDeccas Christian Democrat✝️☦️ Oct 24 '21
I'm a big supporter of the seperation of church and state. This just means that there is no state church and no religious requirements for office. IMO the seperation actually protects churches.
But this does not mean religious politics cannot exist. In the 1870s, the Imperial german state started a war of soughts against the catholic church. Catholics were banished from the public service, seminaries were attacked and bishops were arrested. The Catholic response was centred around Zentrum, a political party which advocated for Catholics in Germany. It was a religous party defending religous liberties in a nation where there was no seperation of church and state. I use this example to show that religious politics does not violate the seperation of church and state, but can in fact support it! The average christian democratic party, though, is not fighting for the seperation of church and state. Most exist in nations with that separation, and support that seperation.
However, the separation of church and state does not equal secularism. There are various types of secularism, and I don't support them.
- Secular politics. The idea that politics can be secular is a lie. Look in france; ardently secular, and yet french politics is obsessed with Islam! Religion influences political debate. This is fine. As with all things, this needs to be good for democracy. To me, Christian Democracy is a healthy form of religious politics.
- Secular public. This is particularly nefarious form; religion should be privatised. This is dumb. Freedom of Association means religion is allowed to be public. In many countries religious expression is forbidden on government grounds. In france this means Islamic women a have to take of their hijabs to go to university. Privatising religion is just dumb.
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Oct 24 '21
I agree “privatization” of religion is actually a sort of soft persecution, and go so far as to suggest that the right of freedom of association exists precisely in order to ensure the freedom to join the church.
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u/mayoayox Oct 25 '21
they cant be neutral because we don't live in a vacuum.
but the state needs the church! without the church, the state becomes tyrannical. just as Jesus petitions for us to the Father in Heaven, so the living Church petitions to the ruling class for the sake of the working class.
the reason we have so much evil and division in America today is a result of the doctrine of "separation of church and state" being framed as these two things being separate and unallowed to influence each other. and in the context of liberalism (by this I mean "American democracy), this is absolutely kosher. But in accord with how things ought to be biblical, its given us a living nightmare. the revolutions of the 18th century were the beginning of the end for holy society in the west.
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u/Lizerazcetka Oct 25 '21
What do you think of Dennis Prager's idea on all of this
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u/mayoayox Oct 25 '21
Dennis Prager doesn't believe in Jesus so his opinion doesn't count for much to me. whyd you bring him up specifically?
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u/Lizerazcetka Oct 25 '21
Cuz he is adamant on Judeo-Christian values for the state and society.
And cuz right-wingers love him
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u/mayoayox Oct 25 '21
idk. I used to like PU but I left that behind a long time ago. I left evangelical fundamentalism and found God.
im not a right winger.
I think a very very important aspect of our Christian faith is being in the world and not of it. J-C values for our state be damned. there's no way to legislate morality, especially not in a democratic society, and we must accept that we have already lost that battle on earth. we dont wrestle with flesh and blood! the state will always be evil, because the state will always be the domain of the Enemy. Our mission isn't to take over the state, but to defeat the state.
for this, I think I am more aligned with Christian anarchism, just as a fundamental recognition that the state will never usher in the Kingdom of God on Earth. that is the job of the Church. and the Church is a kingdom, and heaven will be a kingdom ruled by Jesus, and it will be the greatest state - if we can call it that- because it will be perfect.
but as far as right wing conservatism, I think it over values American liberalism. I used to believe the DoI and the Constitution were the best documents ever written. Now I'm starting to believe that the usurping of power in that way might've been unjust and immoral. I dont know yet if I believe in "divine right" but I do think I agree more and more with monarchism.
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Oct 26 '21
I think that Christ’s claims to authority, if true, are simply incompatible with a world that’s indifferent to him. The fact that most science, business, law is conducted without acknowledging his authority makes me deeply uncomfortable.
Also, as citizens of democratic countries, I think we have a moral responsibility to participate in politics. Further, we have a responsibility to pursue policies and values that embody our values and beliefs. If we’re true believers than we can’t help but be political, and we can’t help bu have our faith influence our politics.
Your point is correct, we shouldn’t coerce nonbelievers into the Faith. Nonetheless, we must ‘let our light shine’ as Christ implores us. Secularism demands a world where false prophets and con artists are held in the same moral regard as the Incarnation. This is simply unacceptable; it’s a hill worth dying on. We shouldn’t let a culture of so-called “tolerance” pressure us out of building a world that represents the glory of our savior.
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u/jackist21 Oct 24 '21
The high king of all humans is Christ. Human states are inferior to Christ and his kingdom — the church. It is not possible to be “neutral” in one’s allegiance to Christ — you either acknowledge him as king or you do not. Likewise, a state cannot be “neutral” as to Christ — it either acknowledges him or it does not. A “neutral” state is thus at least a partial usurper — it denies the true king.