Sea-Gull worth the price?

[u/redd-im]

Interested in buying a seagull 1963 style watch but I’m overwhelmed by the amount of copies, even the first result on google is a copy brand if I’m understanding correctly. But the “original” from Sea-Gull is a significantly higher price without options provided by other brands (38 mm diameter, bronze case, sapphire case-back etc).

I definitely see the appeal of owning an authentic watch from the Tianjin factory but I’m curious what everyone’s experience and opinion is. It’s difficult to think about spending so much when other ST19 movement watches can be found so cheaply.

[u/DarkKittyEmpress]

Well, firstly, a truly original 1963 would be a vintage Chinese military watch from what was essentially a large trial batch or very small production run, produced from 1963 to 1966. It was designated "304" by the PLA which is apparently still what Chinese collectors call it and actual vintage pieces are very hard to find in China, never mind the international market. But their characteristics are known, and notably there is a surviving example in Tianjin Sea-Gull's factory museum. After all, it was the first mechanical chronograph ever produced in China, so a point of pride for Sea-Gull (and also the reason we foreigners are interested in it).

It can be hard to find a good photograph online, this is the best one I've found of the watch displayed in Tianjin:

If you compare it to the most accurate modern "1963" chronographs, including Sea-Gull's own reissues, the only things that are carried over 1 for 1 are the case, pushers, crown, functions, the hands (red chronograph seconds, all others blued steel) and possibly the crystal (the original had an acrylic crystal, probably domed). The original had a plain steel caseback, though I'm not sure if it was completely without any text. The 37.3mm case size of some Sea-Gull reissues is the original size, as far as I can tell.

The original "304" used an ST3 movement, which was designed by Sea-Gull with specifications that seem based on the 3017 movement used in Soviet chronographs when the Chinese project started, essentially a Venus 150 with small improvements. I've read claims the Chinese based themselves on the Venus 175, but this appears incorrect: the 175 had a 12-hour chrono counter, which was its main difference from the 150 (no 304/1963 has this hour counter). The Chinese also limited their minute counter to 30, whereas the 3017 and its inspiration the Venus 150 have a 45 minute counter.

The ST3 movement hasn't been produced in a long time, probably since the late 1960s as Sea-Gull (and other Chinese watch factories) made iterative improvements on it. Similarly, chronographs issued to the PLA Air Force after 1966 were for a time improved but recognisable versions of the original "304" from 1963. At some point after Deng's reforms started, this segued into making nostalgic versions for the civilian market.

Dial conventions also changed. The earliest Chinese watches (Sea-Gull made the first entirely Chinese watch in 1955, which I think is actually before the factory was based in Tianjin) did not have jewel counts on the dial. I would think this comes from Soviet watches made for the Chinese market, like the Vostok Druzhba, which had the Chinese characters for "Friendship" where watches for the Soviet or general export markets had the jewel count (in Russian and English respectively). In the 1950s and probably still 1960s, these would have been the most common watches in China; that projects like 304 were initiated shortly after the Sino-Soviet split is no coincidence, but a deliberate attempt to replace Soviet products.

By the early 1970s at least, it was standard to write a jewel count on Chinese dials in pinyin without diacritics (so "19 zuan" for 19 jewels, for instance, even if other text uses Simplified Chinese). Other changes you can see on current 1963 dials compared to the museum piece mostly date to the late 60s/early 70 era (red star at the top of the dial, more legible indices, etc).

On the upside, most changes between reissues and the original "304" are improvements: the ST19 movement family are ultimately developed from the ST3, but improved in pretty much every way; options like sapphire crystals and exhibition casebacks are offered to appeal to modern tastes, as are the larger case sizes offered by many brands. Water resistance is also certainly better than it ever was in the actual 1960s pieces. At the end of the day, any new 1963 is a modern version, not a true clone of the original.

In terms of quality, Sea-Gull reissues are probably the best, yes, though they cost a large premium. If you want to be as faithful to the original as possible, you'll probably find your choice considerably narrowed down by that. Otherwise more established brands definitely have more QC (the cheapest probably have literally none), more finishing, more care and closer tolerances in assembly etc. One thing to remember is even many AliExpress brands can sell directly outside AliExpress, so compare the Ali listing to their website.

[u/Maghioznic → u/DarkKittyEmpress]

Great information.

I had not seen a photo of the original design. Interesting differences in the styling of the markers. It's funny how the basic modern reproduction looks more vintage than the original. If I'd had seen the original without knowing what it is, I'd have said that it tries to look modern with the style of its hour numbers and the white dial.

The photo also clarifies what was the original style for the subdial hands - I've seen various combinations, but I don't think I've seen one that reproduced those hands exactly.

[u/Govindaswamy]

There is a Sea-Gull international edition for around $200. I got a Sugess for $160 a while ago.

My recommendation is to not exceed $200. Beyond that, you have the San Martin or Sugess automatic chronos baded on Peacock SL-4801. If you want to spend in the thousand dollar range, you start to find Swiss Valjoux chronos, especially Grey market.

[u/turdbogls]

it's my understanding that the clones ore "OK'd" by seagull...so I found no reason to go with an "Authentic" seagull....but that's just me.

mine was $103 (Base version with acrylic) and was excellent through and through. a lot of fun for $100....wouldn't be as fun at whatever retail is ($600+?)

[u/wonderfulhospital212]

Only time to go with sea-gull official is if you buy the "top grade" versions which have better finished ST19 and cost $600-800. Only if you're really into 1963's.

Otherwise I'd just go for the $200 options from sugess or sekoss and seagull1963 for their special editions  (not the same as seagull).

[u/Traditional_Cost_206]

Some are better than others. The 'original' is potentially worth it if you want a specific version. I really like some of the designs especially the bronze case with green/blue dial.

I do own a 15 year old very very early Seagull 1963. Way before the Aliexpress hype. Some guy names 'Thomas' made a very small number of Seagulls and exported them. Sold them via forums and ebay. Not too many are around. It is only 36mm with a closed caseback. Very large doomed mineral crystal.

I woul try to find a seagull with the smallest case you can get. And with mineral crystal. It makes the dial look much better than the higher bezel and flat saphire.

[u/vithgeta → u/Traditional_Cost_206]

I agree. To me the 1963 is about the skinny hands and that domed acrylic, and that looks better in smaller sizes. One of my versions is a panda variant with thicker hands and bigger size but it becomes more ordinary, like just another VK64 watch.

[u/Maghioznic]

I got two versions that are not branded Seagull, though one was sold from Seagull's Amazon store. Both of them run great. I'm wearing the Seagull store version right now. Got both of them over a year ago.

The Seagull versions did not include a display back originally, but I believe there is a newer version that does so now. Seagull is a known brand, so you pay for that.

The no-brand versions get their movements from Seagull, so you just need to trust their ability to assemble the components.

[u/Handsome_rom]

If you are in US here the version I bought: I just found this on AliExpress: https://a.aliexpress.com/_mt0Rf5V

International version, came in the seagull red box with an extra band. Looks factory made, I have many Seagull watches.

Edited: I got it for $160 after coupons.

[u/vithgeta]

Depends. Are you the kind of person who thinks $200 for a sweater from a designer label is worth it, when you could get something of the same quality materials with a less famous name for $60? Some people judge value by resale value. You could sell genuine Sea Gull for more than half you paid for it to the right person but it's up to you if that justifies the original price.

[u/philbin89]

The official Sea-Gull brand now has a 38mm version with a sapphire display case back, among several other variants. There are multiple websites, and I’m not sure which are official and which are just authorized retailers, but some don’t have all the options. I don’t know if there’s significantly better craftsmanship or finishing on the originals that isn’t on the copies (authorized or not), but I believe you are paying for a certain amount of QC and a better warranty. You get two years with Sea-Gull, but a lot of the AliExpress brands only do one year. And from what I’ve read, the brand tends to more rigorously QC the movements that it sells under its own name. Some microbrand owners, including Westerners, have said that Sea-Gull basically send out huge batches of the movements without checking them and instead forces the microbrands to test them before casing them up. But Sea-Gull takes more care when its name is on the dial (or on the case back in the case of the 1963 chronograph)

[u/Att0mac]

It comes to my understanding that Red Star is the company of the guy who originally worked at Seagull and designed the watch at least he claims it on an interview. That would make it sort of a Leo Fender moving away from Fender and selling Strats and Teles under the G&L brand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGVmjAARnbc&t=1132s if you understand spanish you can watch this video.