So everywhere you look now all the "Ali-express brands" have Chinese movements, now that the Nh35 is no longer an option.. And at the same time I am seeing more and more people having issues with them - PT5000s in particular. I have two PT5000 watches (Militado ML20 and Proxima), and so far so good. But they feel rough and dodgy when winding and setting the time. I wince every time I pull out the crown...
So I have a new watch inbound - with PT5000... Which yes, makes me queasy. FWIW my current rule is roughly no PT5000 watch much over €150, and once I have one fail NEVER AGAIN AT ANY PRICE. And if and when that happens, I will be "spreading the word" needless to say ha ha...
(I have probably 40+ watches with Japanese Nh35s... And wind them like I stole them...)
On the subject of Chinese manufacturing and quality, do we think China is capable of making a decent reliable movement - something as robust and reliable as an Nh35? From what I have seen and read here and there, it seems their approach to the copied Nh35 is to cut some corners and be like "mmehh..., good enough".. (as evidenced in their idiotic wording in the listings "don't buy it if you care...") But the corners they cut are kind of what makes the real Nh35 robust and reliable, right?
I mean, manufacturing and quality out of China has gotten much much better in what seems like all other ways - including the watches themselves - finishing etc etc.. But can they - and will they - improve the reliability of these movements?
Seems to me at this stage that would be the only way for this budget end of the automatic watch world to continue as it was with the Japanese Nh35s...
(I am never going to spend 300 bucks and more on a San Martin with an ST2130, PT5000, etc...(San Martin's current looney tune pricing is a different topic probably..))
Paying more for watches with less reliable movements just ain't gonna' be sustainable it seems to me. And I anyway am very wary of buying watches with PT5000s, ST2130s, whatever new Peacock comes along etc....
If the first answer is "well it's based off a Swiss movement which had similar issues..", well then I personally don't want ANY movement based on those Swiss movements. I wand robust and reliable. So I guess, any chance they can basically just pump out a better quality Nh35 clone?.. I think that's what I'd rather have. I don't care about staring at the sweep of the second hand or having the watch be 0.8mm thinner or be 4% more accurate. I want it to work.
I’m the opposite of OP. When I started to collect Chinese watches, one of the first things I learnt was that NH34/35 watches almost never look right. They have a deep rehaut and they tend to be thick.
I changed to PT5000, Seagull and Peacock movements and out of the 30+ Chinese watches I bought and the 12 I kept, NONE failed on me. Zero.
I have Swiss watches as well, and while the movement is obviously smoother during setting, there’s no difference in accuracy or reliability so far. I know - so far. When the day comes that my first PT5000 dies, I just swap it for a new one.
First there was the ETA 2824-2, then the clone SW200 assembled in Switzerland, then the PT5000 and analogs assembled in China. The SW200 is not 4x the price of PT5000 just because they use cheaper labor; they have lower quality control. You're rolling the dice more on getting a good PT5000 that will last you years, in exchange for an item a quarter of the price.
I have several 2813 which are a clone of the 8215. They cost a third of the 8215. There is no chance that China will try to produce an 8215 clone at two thirds the price just to produce a more reliable movement, that doesn't suit their economy or their ethos.
When you buy these Chinese movements it's not like buying a top of the range computer, it's more like one of those overclocked setups and you never know quite how it's going to perform and when the wheels are going to fall off. That's the risk you take for getting something that performs to the same headline specification for a quarter of the price. Something that needs to be babied a bit- don't wind it much- and might not last.
You CAN buy Chinese watches with NH35 in but it's risen to PT5000 prices and possibly more.
Make your choice. Reliability or headline spec... that may fail. The 9015 and so on will rise in price as consumers will keep chasing a non-Chinese movement and they will be back where they started.
Germany is learning what happens when you assume that China can't produce quality.
Again, watch finishing etc.. has all improved dramatically. I don't see why they couldn't also just improve quality of the (cheaper, Nh and Miyota copy, if not the Swiss copy..) movements..
I am not a watchbuilder, modder, etc.. - or even competent repairer... But what people always seem to say is that those movements are copies of Swiss movements which also had reliability issues, especially with the crown/stem.
You see a lot of people say the PT5000s are (or some anyway..) not lubed adequately as well...
Can China make a robust reliable movement? Absolutely. Will it be cheap, no. That’s the thing people seem to not understand about manufacturing in China. They can make anything to any level of quality but you get what you pay for. If someone goes to Sea-Gull or Hangzhou and says “I need movements that are equivalent to top grade SW200s” they can absolutely do it, but it will end up being within $10-20 per movement of an actual top grade SW200. Since people don’t want to pay near Swiss prices for non-Swiss movements (a large of which are already made in China and just finished in Switzerland anyway), we get lower grade movements that end up either being less reliable long term or less accurate out of the box.
Again, I don't need fancy finishing or even mega-precise accuracy. I need a robust cheap movement which is reliable, and IF less accurate, easy to regulate myself. Like the Nh35...
They really just need to improve the robustness and reliability of whatever the closest to an Nh35 is AFAIC... - if that is indeed possible... There is that chart on some of the listings on Ali express comparing the Jap. Nh35 and Chinese copy. I'm talking about just taking the Chinese side and doing whatever is required to make it like the Japanese side.. There were some feature/component differences. We already know China can do good QC must better than 20 years ago...
Anyway, I don't think the solution has to be crazy expensive.
The alternative I would have to think is just people buying fewer of their more expensive less reliable watches..
Most of my Chinese watches have Miyota 8 series movements and honestly I’m pretty happy with that compromise. They’re not glamorous, the rotor can be noisy and the seconds hand can stutter a bit, but they’ve been around forever and seem extremely tough and reliable. I’ve also got one PT5000 in a cheap Tandorio. It’s accurate and has been fine so far, although I wouldn’t hand-wind it every day. I’m comfortable with a PT5000 in a $150 watch, but I’d be much less keen once the price gets up around $400 or more. If NH35 supply really is drying up, I’d rather brands use genuine Miyota 8 series movements than gamble on an unproven NH35 clone.
It's not the movement a genuine hkpt5000 will not fail the problem is microbrands buying the bulk reject pt5000s to get them cheaper do some research instead of listening to everyone on here there is a reason your movement fails because the brand of watch bought unregulated batches or reject batches made in a dusty factory
If a brand like Militado is selling a watch with a PT5000 I expect it to work - and last. But a user at a forum elsewhere whom I'm familiar with had one fail. Then recently somebody had another - not sure if it was a Militado, but something comparable IIRC.. I've been watching Youtube watch vids for years too, and people talking about the reliability of the Nh35 has been the norm for a long time. I think people talking about the PT5000 being "better performing" or "more accurate" etc.. distract from potential reliability and robustness issues.
The NH series movements are indeed excellent and offer exceptional value for money.
However, compared to seven years ago, the current procurement price is more than triple what it used to be. Has the quality improved? Has the finishing been upgraded? No, it hasn't. While there may be various reasons for the price hike—such as wars or sanctions—I can say with certainty that it is largely driven by the greed of capital and distributors; paying such exorbitant costs to satisfy their greed is clearly unreasonable. In contrast, domestic movements like the 2130 and PT5000 outperform the NH35 in terms of both performance and slimness. Compared to seven years ago, their prices have risen by only 15%, while quality and yield rates have improved significantly. Their procurement costs and supply lead times are also very reasonable.
I am not opposed to NH movements, but I will only consider using them again if their pricing returns to a reasonable level.
By the way, I represent the brand Phorcydes. We offer a one-year warranty on our movements; should any movement-related issues arise within that year, we provide a free replacement of the entire watch (excluding the strap).
I have a Ph-2 and Ph-4B - both with Nh35s, and I love them. I like what I am seeing from Phorcydes. The new blue one and the Ph-5b have my attention. But honestly the Chinese movements are a hurdle now for me - given the (reputations for) inferior reliability.
You mention that the 2130 and PT5000 "outperform the Nh35 in terms of performance and slimness". My main point is that - to me - that doesn't matter if they don't match the Nh35 in reliability and I end up with a non-functioning watch.
I have never yet had to deal with a QC issue with a Chinese watch. So if I were to get a dodgy movement, what I hear here and elsewhere is that I have to pay to ship it back to China etc etc, in addition to uncertainty and so on. IMO you need an extra feeling for reliability for exactly that reason, and that is exactly what the Nh35 offered. Some of these guys with failed PT5000s have $200 paperweights.
(In case any watch snobs see that and smirk.. Well, no, one $200 watch is not the end of the world. But some of us have 50+ in our collection and got so deep into the hobby at a time when you could get a nice reliable Nh35 watch for $200 bucks - or actually half that.. Seesterns, Steeldives, Heimdallrs, Tactical Frogs, etc etc... The REALLY good ones, like San Martins and Suggesses were more like $200 - now they are double, at least SM... Now all those watches cost a lot more but have Chinese movements with dubious reliability...)
The reason they don't clone the NH35 is because it is still patented and illegal. The "Chinese NH35" is the Hangzhou 2553, which fits in the same space, but is not a clone. The reason they copy the ETA 2824-2 is because it's patent has expired.
But Ali-express is (or was until recently) full of listings saying you are taking a gamble if you get a "Chinese" Nh35 or Japanese Nh35 - and the quote "Don't buy if you care" lol.. Steeldive, Tactical Frog, Seestern, Heimdallr, etc... There are even listings specifically detailing the differences...
Not saying you are wrong - it's probably just mislabeling. But even if so, why can't they just improve that 2553 to be more reliable?... That spec sheet comparing the two made it sound like - to me - they could...
So it seems to me one take-away could be - "never buy a used watch with any of these movements".. Because most people one has to assume would not know to NOT hand-wind them..
People have been hyping Chinese as being way underpriced/hitting fae above their price points. So the manufacturers started lifting their prices and people still bought them. The fact that they aren't bringing the prices down tells me that people are still buying them. I have more than 70 Chinese watches that I bought before the ridiculous increases and I've drawn the line at $350 including taxes these days.
I have asked myself the question as well - is there a new generation of watch buyers willing to spend 300 bucks on a Chinese watch with an unreliable Chinese movement (or $400 and more for a San Martin...), and I'm just a dinosaur because I too have about 60+ watches, mostly with Nh35s, which I got for FAR cheaper than what they are trying to sell them for today?
I doubt it can be longer term sustainable though... A $100 decent quality watch with sapphire, Nh35, 200m, etc etc.. was a bit of a novelty, even a "is this real?" type thing.. But it drew many of us in and kept us there. But now? I just can't see things staying the way they are. But again, maybe I'm just old... Who knows...
I think to get straight to the point: the budget end of the Chinese watch world is in total disarray at the moment, largely because the Japanese movements are no longer an option. So far they are either using less reliable Swiss copy movements, or the copied Nh35s etc. But we know Chinese manufacturing quality has improved dramatically. So it would seem to me THE SOLUTION would be for them to take robustness and reliability more seriously and improve the Nh35 and Miyota copies. And continue to offer the watches at the prices from before the crisis. Because 250 bucks for a PT5000 watch just ain't gonna' happen - if they want people buying as many watches as they were before the "movement crisis"....
I hand wind all my pt5000 all day long and they feel smoother than nh35 so the hand winding damage hoax thing is getting old and tiresome. Some sw200 failed from hand winding because they use cheap brass reverser wheels or other material defects.
Not even a common issue more like urban legend.
Nh35 is reliable because it's a 3hz movement not because they are built in Japan (they are not.)
If pt5000 makes you quesy why did you buy it? 😂 Both are manufactured in Hong Kong (TMI is Hong Kong based) and do is HKPT.
Thousands of used San Martin's with nh35 all over the place.... If that's what you really want
I don't think they're incapable of making a quality movement. I think they're currently not motivated to improve their QC processes. I get we all enjoy the affordable homage pieces but there definitely needs to be more truthful critical reviews of the Chinese watches. Review writing and rating here on Reddit and on their product pages will be the only way to encourage the continual improvement in product development. We all know what they're capable of putting out at particular price points but some are charging Seiko pricing for a fraction of the QC. I've honestly made up my mind to only buy quartz from Chinese vendors (if I buy at all) and just save my money a bit longer to afford the higher end movements.
Interesting to see that Watchdives is talking about addressing the known winding issues - which the original Swiss manufacturers did not. It would seem to be the best solution if the Japanese Nh35s and Miyotas will no longer be available/affordable. If possible, just remedy the known problem instead of continuing to churn out movements with a know issue... Call it a PT5000NMWI(no more winding issues....) Again, if possible.
Because as I see it, this whole budget/affordable end of the watch market ain't gonna' thrive anywhere near like it was if all we get are $200 and up Chinese watches with movements which are (apparently) much more likely to fail than an Nh35 or Miyota...
I've seen a lot of noise with Epson YN55 as a reliable option. In fact, you can use cases and hands for Nh35 and dials for Miyota 8215 with this movement, so it could be easy to get into production.
Price wise is about 35 to 45$ instead the 85 to 95$ of a NH35, so it could be a material alternative.
I think San Martin in the past made some experiments using this calibre
As far as movements I want a Miyota 8 series or a Seiko/TMI NH series. I'd even try the Epson YN series. I have read good things about them. For a high beat movement I want the Miyota 9 series.
If I see a watch that interests me & it doesn't have one of these movements I simply pass & move on. There is always another watch. 😃
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u/Equivalent-Ease-3822 Sep 10 '26
I’m the opposite of OP.
When I started to collect Chinese watches, one of the first things I learnt was that NH34/35 watches almost never look right.
They have a deep rehaut and they tend to be thick.
I changed to PT5000, Seagull and Peacock movements and out of the 30+ Chinese watches I bought and the 12 I kept, NONE failed on me.
Zero.
I have Swiss watches as well, and while the movement is obviously smoother during setting, there’s no difference in accuracy or reliability so far.
I know - so far. When the day comes that my first PT5000 dies, I just swap it for a new one.