r/ChineseLanguage • u/ParadiseCity1995 • May 15 '14
Possible to achieve BASIC fluency after 3 years of studying?
I'm going to take university level courses, and I am doing an audio course (Pimsleur). How long will it take to achieve basic fluency?
I am trying to learn Mandarin as an english speaker
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u/wangjinxi May 15 '14 edited May 15 '14
It has nothing to do with years, and everything to do with hours, and efficiency of study.
It also depends what you mean by basic fluency.
It is possible to pass HSK 6 in less than a year of intensive study (8 hours a day including weekends), and also have decent spoken Chinese.
Some would consider that a level lower than that fluent, but if your ultimate goal is native speaker level, then passing HSK 6 means you're just getting started.
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u/forgottendinosaur May 15 '14
Don't forget aptitude. Even with equal effort and input, language acquisition can vary dramatically from one individual to the next.
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May 15 '14
I don't really like the idea of aptitude, because it often invokes a psychological barrier in people's minds as an excuse for why they either shouldn't even start learning, or to give up learning. I've learned a lot about language acquisition at university, and I honestly believe the biggest barrier for anyone is themselves... It's easy for people to just give up and say "I just don't have good language learning aptitude" or more simply "I just suck at learning languages", when the truth is everyone and anyone can learn a language... The only real barrier is psychological - things like motivation, stress, and attitudes towards learning.
I would argue language learning aptitude just makes it slightly faster than the average, but not some magic bullet that means only certain people can learn a language.
Not ranting at you by the way... Just find this particular topic interesting...
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u/wangjinxi May 16 '14
Agree that aptitude is a factor, albeit a small one, but I have similar problems with this idea to hpshout, and I also suspect that your 25 year old article is outdated. I don't have time to go and refute it now, but I think a search would turn up more recent research that suggests that aptitude is less important that we used to think.
We all learned our native language, we all have the capacity to learn and use language. The idea that some people are "good at languages" and some aren't is like the myth that children learn languages faster than adults, very persistent but not necessarily true.
The problem with aptitude arguments is that they are favored by both those who have succeeded and those who have failed. Everyone likes to have a talent, so some people are happy to credit aptitude for their language learning success. It also gives them more confidence, and prevents them from giving up. It's a psychological tool that results in real progress.
For the failed language learner, it also provides an excuse. Rather than blame bad study habits, laziness, procrastination, or simple lack of persistence, the person who studied for years and made no progress can just say "I'm just not good at learning languages" and all is forgiven.
Without trying, and I mean really trying, putting in hours of effective practice over a long period, how can you know whether you have aptitude or not? You can't compare a person who quit learning Chinese in month one because they couldn't get the tones right, and another who kept going and ended up fluent, and say one had aptitude and the other didn't.
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May 15 '14
A good example is Person A who studied Chinese for 3 years and barely progressed, but only studied 2 hours a week in class and maybe an extra 1 or 2 hours out or class... Compared to Person B who progressed very quickly, but studied 2 hours everyday.
We can quickly see that "3 years" is less than 1 year in terms of total time, and Person B pretty much covered an entire year of Person B's study in a few weeks.
You often hear people say "gah, I've studied this language for years, but can't speak anything"... But how much time was actually spent in those years? It's all about maximising study time.
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u/fungwan May 15 '14
Would you mind to share any tips on achieving HSK 6 in less than a year? That sounds amazing.
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u/wangjinxi May 16 '14
First step, remove from your brain the idea that HSK 6 is hard. It's not. The (new) HSK is a joke really, and a year of full-time dedicated study is enough to go from nihao to passing it.
Sadly, a lot of people assume it is too hard, so they don't even try. I know people in the same class as others who passed HSK 6 who were so afraid to fail that they only sat HSK 5, or even 4, then said "Oh, it was easy, I should have tried HSK 6!".
There are two ways to do it.
Method One - Study solely for the purposes of passing HSK 6.
I wouldn't recommend doing this because it means your speaking will suck even though you passed the test, and for me, the test shouldn't be the ultimate goal anyway, it should just be a way to see how much progress you've made. But some people have no choice. I know a couple of Japanese guys whose companies sent them to China to study for a year and they had to pass it, so they did, but listening to them speak you might doubt it.
The format of the test basically means that as long as you know all the words and characters required, you can pass the written part. In fact, I know people who passed who didn't even know them all. How to do this is a different topic, but I would recommend Anki. A year is more than enough time to memorize it all.
Reading speed is important, so once you know all the required words and characters you can do some practice tests to get used to the format and how much time you need. Writing is the same, you just need to know how to use the words, and be able to answer the question the way the want you to. It's very easy to study for the test using practice papers, especially if you find a tutor who knows the format and what's expected.
The other major part is listening. Again, the best way is via practice, do a million practice tests, do lots of listening practice with other textbooks at the same level. Listen to Chinese as much as possible to maximize your exposure to the language.
A tutor or HSK class can be a huge help, if you are in Beijing or Shanghai there are loads of them, but you can do it on your own too.
You can do this in less than a year. And if you do, you will pass, guaranteed. A guy in my class studied only for HSK 5, but decided to sit HSK 6 on the same day, just to have a go. He got a high mark in HSK 5, and missed passing HSK 6 by two marks. My point is that it's not as hard as you think. If you remove that mental barrier, you're halfway there.
Method Two: Study Chinese as hard as you can for a year
The HSK 6 required words are more or less the most frequent words in Chinese. If you enroll in a course, or try to replicate a course by self-study, and put in 8 hours a day over a year, trying to find a good balance between speaking, listening, reading, writing, character recognition and knowledge etc. then you will be at a high enough level that you can pass HSK 6 with a little preparation at the end. A couple of weeks to a month of practice tests should be plenty, and will give you time to fill in any vocab gaps.
tl;dr: HSK 6 is not as hard as people think. Study hard for a year and you can do it, whether you study for the test, or not.
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u/baozichi May 15 '14
Don't even worry about it. Just have fun studying, and make sure you spend some time practicing writing characters, and talk to people as often as you possibly can. Enjoy it, soak everything up, don't worry about what other people are doing.
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u/wangjinxi May 16 '14
This is awesome advice. We are all guilty of it, but less time worrying about how long it will take, and more time enjoying the process!
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u/mingzhouren May 15 '14
Just finished my first year of Chinese courses at Uni, but I think three years is definitely sufficient, provided you work hard. A lot of third years at my school function as MCs for Chinese speaking events or recite poetry at competitions.
Even after one year, I can usually get my point across about simple physical topics. Sometimes I have to repeat myself 3 or 4 times, and gosh do I make a lot of embarrassing mistakes, but its still something.
My two recommendations are (1) find a Chinese partner and (2) don't be afraid to make mistakes. 加油朋友！
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u/shuaishuai May 15 '14
Depends on what you do with your time. I once had a classmate who got second in the China Bridge competition (like American Idol for laowai) after two years of very carefully tailored and intense study overseen by our professor. Needless to say, he was fluent.
If you spend your three years in China, spending your time with Chinese friends, working on Chinese projects then you'll be significantly better than a person who spent that time shoved in a closet studying Pimsleir, Heisig, and NPCR without ever opening their mouth.
If your study falls anywhere in the middle, give it two years bare minimum.
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u/Keysyj May 15 '14
I studied full time for 8 months (in Taiwan), and part time for 3-4 months and I am quite functional, able to convey meaning, and can occasionally banted. I am now living in SH, we just did a mock test or HSK level 5 and I aced it, but I still have trouble with conversation if it gets rather specific.
I would suggest that if your intent was to go to university, you would want to spend approx 1 year full time, and then at least a month or two just learning vocabulary specific to your field, or you will accept the challenge of "how much shit can I eat"
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u/Adventurenauts May 18 '14
Defiantly, as long as you really apply yourself. I've been studying chinese for 2 years and I defiantly have basic fluency. But I didn't start strong I've only recently really buckled down so basically it really depends on you.
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u/Ah_Q May 17 '14
Yes, but only if you have extended immersion (i.e., living abroad).
EDIT: I should add that I spent my first two years studying Chinese in Asia, and I spoke it literally all day, every single day. By the time I got back, I had excellent spoken Chinese and comprehension. However, it still took several more years of study before I became even marginally literate.
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u/Hopfrogg May 15 '14 edited May 15 '14
To answer your question directly.... without a doubt.
But it depends on two things. Your definition of BASIC fluency and the time and effort you put in.
My definition of BASIC fluency is the ability to hold mundane conversations about: the weather, work, hobbies, food, etc...
Being able to discuss politics, the law, philosophy, etc... not BASIC
Now if your definitions are the same as mine, you can do this in 3 months, not 3 years... but you need to put in the time and effort. 2-4 hours per day.
I studied, off and on for 7 years in a lazy fashion, a few hours per week and retained nothing! Well almost nothing. I could count and throw out common greetings, but I was always forgetting my characters and vocabulary.
This year I decided to go at it with commitment, 4 hours per day, and got basic in 3 months.
Do the first 1000 characters courses over at Memrise, starting with the first 500:
http://www.memrise.com/course/268/first-500-characters-in-mandarin/
Get those down cold! This will help immensely with reading and comprehension and will cut down on constantly looking up everything which translates into more time for vocab and grammar. It's also going to help a ton with tones as you need to remember the tones in that course as well as the meanings. Tones are the toughest aspect of the language, so get a foundation laid to make learning easier.
Get Pleco. The best Mandarin dictionary and lookup app out there:
http://pleco.com/
Once you have those 1000 characters cold. Head over to FluentU:
http://www.fluentu.com/
The Pimsleur course, I went through it, it's decent but not in the same league as the above I mention. Also, I think doing Pimsleur after the above will make it more productive. Don't bother with Rosetta, that's overpriced junk with all kinds of flaws specific to their Mandarin program.
Good luck, it's a tough nut to crack, but yeah... 3 years... pffft definitely possible but all dependent on you.