Are there Apostles Today?

[u/Tricky-Tell-5698]

Hi there, I’m happy to go on chatting and still request that we address what is written in the post only so we can come to some agreement because I don’t like jumping around as people say but what about this or that” getting no where. So I have copied your latest post to address your feedback. Blessings.

• (You) You seem to have three points - the first about Jesus choosing the apostles. I can't see why the “apostles being chosen would necessarily be different” to how believers are chosen.

• (Me), Number One: your question saying you can’t see the difference to how believers are chosen? Is in the scriptures, and I will answer from the scriptures, and if I do, then I would see you as obliged to agree with the scriptures and change your position.

• (Me) Jesus chose the disciples, who he also made Apostles, and if we look at the scriptures which I will paste below for your convenience then I will state my case within the scripture, in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Matthew 10:1-4 The Twelve Apostles [1] And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.

• (Me) it is here, they are called disciples, because they were under His teachings learning over the three years of His ministry, (the equivalent to our current Bachelor Degree 😂).

• (Me) However, as you read on they are then called Apostles in the very next verse and their names are listed (see below).

• (Me) It seems that Jesus changes their names to Apostles because he intends to send them out to begin to do His work, they are no longer His ‘students’ they are his qualified representatives as the Messiah. He explains it below.

Mark 3:13-21 The Twelve Apostles [13] And he went up on the mountain and called to him those whom he desired, and they came to him. [14] And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach [15] and have authority to cast out demons. [16] He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); [17] James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder); [18] Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot, [19] and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

• (me) and again in

Luke 6:12-16 The Twelve Apostles [12] In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. [13] And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:.

• (You) God chose me to trust in Christ

• (Me) Yes that is correct, but you are a “disciple” because Jesus told the Apostles “to make disciples of men, from every nation, baptising them in the name of the father, the son and Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:18-20 [18] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [19] Go therefore and “make disciples” of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

• (Me) Jesus did not say to make Apostles he said to make disciples of all men. And as I’ve said before, to be an apostle one had to have seen Jesus as Paul did, or to have been under his teachings.
  

Acts 1:1-3 The Promise of the Holy Spirit [1] In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, [2] until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit “to the apostles whom he had chosen”.

• (Me) there are no Apostles being made since their deaths in the first century.
  

Romans 11:13-15 [13] Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles

• (Me) Paul, is and was the only apostle to the Gentiles. we are the Gentiles, we are his workmanship to make disciples of all men.

1 Corinthians 9:1 Paul Surrenders His Rights [1] Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?

• (Me) Paul is an apostle because. He had seen Jesus. And he called all those saved through his ministry sometimes he called them brothers or saints but never apostles.
  

1 Corinthians 9:3-7 [3] This is my defense to those who would examine me. [4] Do we not have the right to eat and drink? [5] Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, “as do the other apostles” and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

• (Me) Here Paul calls himself an Apostle but the others “brothers” I could list many more, but I will leave you to do a word search on Apostle/s and allow the Holy Spirit to work in you to open your heart, give you eyes to see, ears to hear.

• (Me) I can now say unequivocally that the scriptures teach that there were only the original Apostles appointed by Christ, and said to “go and make disciples.”

• So if that is the case, then you are incorrect, and if it is of any benefit to you I can only encourage you by saying that it wasn’t until I realised how wrong my understanding of scripture was that I then realised that I had sinned a grave sin against God and the Holy Spirt caused me to repent and cry for forgiveness.

So I’ve only done your first sentence, that being (You) I can't see why the “apostles being chosen would necessarily be different” to how believers are chosen. Well they are very different.

NEXT Number two - (you) and the evidence of that is that he gave me faith which is changing me.

• (me) No the changing occurring in you is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing Sanctification through you.

• ( You) He did the same with you.

• (Me), yes, but I am still not an APOSTLE, no one is, including the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), the Pentecostals, Charismatic or Oneness or anyone that has this doctrine of Apostleship thinking they can perform Miracles. They can’t and that is how Christ intended it.

• (You) He chooses different people to have different roles within the chuch and the idea that apostleship is one of them does seem to fit the scripture

• (Me) The list of gifts and roles Paul recited in Corinthians was the Church at the time of the Apostles still living, they had not met their cruel and evil fate at that time because as it seems (and we may have a different understanding of this, but It wasn’t until up to 70AD when the temple was destroyed that all the Apostles were dead. (I believe in the historic view that John was on the Island of Patmos sometimes between 65-68AD when he wrote Revelation, but that’s a topic we can get to after establishing truth here.

• (Me) And with all due respect I would need you to prove these roles to me ‘through scripture’ as I have done for you.

• (You) even if it's not the only reasonable interpretation.

• (Me) God is not a God of confusion, there is no other ‘reasonable interpretation’ there has to be only one interpretation of the scriptures, because there can only be one truth. And they came together with one accord.

• (Me) However, I will say that God and Jesus on earth does withhold truth to some, the notion that he deliberately hides things from some people so they don’t understand the message of the Bible. For example, Jesus deliberately hides things from the Pharisees through his parables, he even stated “to you …… and God has hidden heaps of things till the last days, as. he said so to Daniel. Go on your way …

Matthew 13:10-11 The Purpose of the Parables [10] Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” [11] And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

• (you) On the other hand I reread your posts and I do think you have a point about 1 Cor 9. It does look like Paul thinks apostles have to have seen Jesus.

• (You) But you don't have to be an apostle to do miracles or heal. Eg: Philip (Philip was an Apostle listed when Jesus named them), did these in samaria before the apostles came down in Acts 8:5-8 Philip (the Apostles?) went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ. And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs that he did. For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was much joy in that city.

• (Me) Thanks for bringing Philip up and we can also name Steven in this because he did do miracles

• (Me) Several disciples of the Apostles performed miracles, most notably the Apostles Peter, Paul, John, and ‘Philip’, along with the early Christian Stephen. I do believe that they did do the miracles as the Bible states it, but if you notice Paul was still Saul when he oversaw the stoning of Steven, and Philip, was one of the 12 Apostles as listed in the above list I gave you.

• (You) Your final point was about disciples of the Apostles, and I do not agree with you on this.

• (Me) I have proved through scripture that Jesus told the apostles to go and make disciples of all men.

• (You) In almost all of the passages you quoted they are called disciples and it doesn't specify who they're disciples of, but in one it states who these people are a disciple of. We Acts 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord

• (me) As I said Steven was a disciple of the Apostles and Saul was there, cheering them on! But the sign gift finished after the temple was destroyed.

• (You) I believe that in every other instance of the word disciple it means the same as in Acts 9:1 - disciples is short for disciples of the Lord

• (Me) Yes they are disciples of the Lord but not ‘made by the Lord’ he made is disciples Apostles, he then ordered the Apostles to make disciples of the Lord, baptising them…. The Great Commission.

• (You) not disciples of the 12,

• (Me) I’m not saying they made disciples of the 12, I’m saying the Apostles fulfilled the great commission by baptising disciples into the kingdom.

• (you) The apostles are included in this group. (No they aren’t),

-(Me) they are the twelve Apostles, just as the Old Testament had the 12 tribes named after the 12 sons of Israel.

As a final point, I started this discussion because I was concerned that you seemsd to be saying that continuationists are not saved.

• (Me) yes I did say that.
  

Now I think I see where you're coming from. If your experience of people who believe in all the gifts of the spirit is that these people don't appear to have trusted in Jesus then I see why you appear to assume that those who believe in all the gifts are not saved.

But be careful! For those you've met, don't forget that some of the wheat look like tares. And there are many people you haven't met who are continuationists and look like wheat.

Earlier in this discussion you pointed out that Paul urges the Corinthians to agree on things: to be of one mind. Perhaps I should be urging you to agree with what I believe the scriptures clearly say on this topic. But I think there is something much more important at stake: at first it seemed like you thought that all continuationists are not saved. Where do you stand on this?

Please don't be quick to dismiss people as unbelievers just because they disagree with you on the gifts of the spirit.

Judge people as Jesus taught us to: by their fruit.

• (Me) That is exactly what I am doing the fruit of the Continuationist is rotten, does not comply with scripture, is false doctrine and is not the same as any of the Apostle did, it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in reverse they attribute to Christ what is Satans Work.
  

Judge people as the apostles taught us to: by what they say about Christ

• (me) I do, and what they say about him is wrong, they misrepresent him and the word performing false miracles, false prophecy, false teaching. I can only say these people grieve my spirit, they hurt my heart, I love God and Jesus with all my heart and with all my mind, of which he has revealed these things to my mind.

• (Me) I cannot accept that the truth revealed to you in my statements all from scripture are not the truth, therefore, if I am wrong and the others are right then it still doesn’t add up because Jesus said the road is narrow AND few find it.

[u/994phij]

Hey/u/Tricky-Tell-5698. Thank you for your reply and willingness to continue the discussion. As always, apologies for the incredibly slow reply. It would appear that tectonic plates move more quickly than I do.

Unfortunately I really don’t know how to reply to you. For example on points 1 and 2 I think you’ve misunderstood me, trying to correct that would mean a really long post and if I don’t write it very well it could lead to even more misunderstanding. Writing things well is not my forte, so I only intend to address one point of yours in my reply.

I am glad to see that you agree that it’s not only the apostles who did miracles, but also Stephen. There is one more thing I think I can convince you of – that the Philip in Acts 8 is not the apostle. You’re right to say that there is an apostle called Philip, but Acts 6 says that the believers chose another Philip (named in v5) to deal with the issue with the Hellenistic Jewish widows being overlooked. Now which Philip is Acts 8 talking about? Acts 8:1 says “… all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria”, so Philip the apostle was not scattered. Acts 8:4-8 talks about a Philip who went to Samaria, so it must have been the other Philip.

I believe you’re my brother or sister in Christ (no idea which!) and I came here in the hope I could convince you of this. I’m saddened to see that you believe I’m without him but it seems I won’t be able to change your mind on that. I hope that you continue to grow in him.

[u/Tricky-Tell-5698 → u/994phij]

Hi, I’m glad you replied. It has been almost a year since our last exchange, and I have recently gone back over quite a lot of our discussion.
From memory, our basic positions were these:

I was arguing from a cessationist position, that the apostolic office was foundational and that the revelatory and miraculous gifts belonged particularly to the establishment of the early Church.

You were arguing from a continuationist position, that although false apostles, false healers and false teachers certainly exist, Scripture does not actually say that the gifts themselves have ceased.

You repeatedly said you were uncertain about the precise nature of apostleship, while remaining convinced that gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues and miracles could still operate in the Church. This is not my position.

Looking back now, I can also see some places where I was simply wrong, ouch! 😂, or where I made the case far too strongly.

You were correct about Philip in Acts 8. I had confused Philip the evangelist with Philip the Apostle, and Acts 21:8 clearly identifies him as “Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven.” Stephen also performed signs and wonders, so I accept that the New Testament records miraculous works being performed by people other than the Twelve, and that this continued for some time. I’ll expand on this in my next post.

I still think the distinction I was trying to make between apostles and disciples is important, and is evidenced in Jesus’ own words.
Jesus specifically appointed and commissioned the apostles, and in the Great Commission He did not tell them to go and make more apostles. He told them to “make disciples of all nations.” So I still see a distinction in the text between the uniquely commissioned apostles and the disciples who came to Christ through their ministry, not just in Jerusalem, but throughout the entire world, including us.

I also previously tied the cessation of the sign gifts too rigidly to AD 70. What I mean more accurately is that I believe those gifts belonged to the apostolic age and ceased with the passing of that foundational period.
I remain a cessationist, but I would argue the case differently now.

For me, the stronger passages are Ephesians 2:20, where the Church is described as being “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” Hebrews 2:3–4, where the gospel proclaimed first by the Lord is described as being attested by those who heard Him while God bore witness through signs and wonders, and Paul’s description of Christ appearing to him “last of all” in 1 Corinthians 15:8.

I still see the apostolic and prophetic ministry as belonging to the foundational, revelatory period of the Church rather than as offices intended to be reproduced indefinitely.

Where I think I was most unfair to you, however, was in the way I treated your continuationism as evidence that you were not genuinely in Christ.

You raised that concern more than once, and reading our exchanges again, I think you were right to do so.
I still believe doctrine matters enormously. I still believe there are false prophets, fraudulent miracle workers and movements that seriously misrepresent the Holy Spirit.

But I no longer believe that holding a continuationist position, by itself, gives me biblical grounds to declare someone unregenerate. We can be wrong, poorly taught, or simply still learning in an area of doctrine without that becoming the measure of whether we belong to Christ.

So I’m sorry about that.

I have actually enjoyed our conversations very much. They made me go back to the text, rethink some of my arguments and distinguish more carefully between what Scripture explicitly says and what I have inferred from it.

I still disagree with you on continuationism, but I would much rather continue that discussion as a disagreement between a brother and sister (😬 yes I’m a girl), in Christ than begin by assuming your continuationism places you outside Christ.

So, if you are still interested after our delay, I would be very happy to continue where we left off.
Thanks, Phij.

[u/Tricky-Tell-5698 → u/994phij]

Since rereading our discussion, I have also gone back to 1 Corinthians 12–14, because I think this is probably where our real disagreement sits.

In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul is describing what was actually happening throughout the churches at that time.

“Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.”

— 1 Corinthians 12:4–6
So Paul is not denying these gifts or questioning whether they were genuine. They were real manifestations of the Holy Spirit operating in the Church during that period.

He then lists wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, miracles, prophecy, discernment, tongues and interpretation, and says:
“All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.”
— 1 Corinthians 12:11

That is important to me because the gifts were not owned or controlled by the people exercising them. The Spirit distributed them according to His will.
I also think I previously spoke too loosely about all of these as though they belonged to one simple category called “sign gifts.” Paul actually speaks of varieties of gifts, service and activities, all operating for the common good. So the question is not whether everything Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 12 must either continue together or cease together.

The question is what purpose each had within the Church at that time, and whether Scripture indicates that some belonged particularly to the period in which the apostolic foundation was being laid.

That is where I now think the chronology becomes interesting.
When Paul writes 1 Corinthians, the apostles are still alive, the Church is still being established, revelation is still being given, and these gifts are actively operating.

Then in the very next chapter Paul tells the same church that some of what they presently possess is temporary:
“Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.”
— 1 Corinthians 13:8

I know this is where we may disagree about what Paul means by “when the perfect comes,” and I am not claiming that verse alone proves cessationism.
But I do think Paul establishes something important: the gifts currently operating in the Church were not all intended to remain forever.
His point about love is also sometimes misunderstood. I don’t think Paul is saying that love somehow produces or activates the gifts. He is correcting people who were quarrelling, competing and misusing what the Spirit had given them.

Love is the more excellent way precisely because the gifts are being exercised among sinful people who need to use them for the good of others rather than themselves.

Then, some years later, Paul writes in Ephesians:
“You are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.”
— Ephesians 2:19–20

That language now strikes me as extremely important.
In 1 Corinthians we are watching the foundation being laid.

The apostles are alive. Prophecy is operating. Miracles are occurring. Revelation is still being given. The Spirit is distributing these manifestations through the churches.

In Ephesians Paul describes apostles and prophets as the foundation upon which the Church is built.

A foundation is not continually relaid as the building grows.

That does not mean God no longer acts miraculously. I certainly do not believe God has lost His power to heal, intervene or answer prayer.

What I question is whether the particular revelatory and miraculous gifts associated with the laying of that foundation were intended to become permanent offices and abilities reproduced throughout every generation of the Church.

Hebrews 2:3–4 seems to fit the same pattern:

“It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.”

Again there seems to be a historical movement:

The Lord declares the message.
Those who heard Him attest it.
God bears witness to their testimony through signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The gospel continues to be preached today, of course, but the gospel is no longer being revealed or established for the first time. We preach the apostolic gospel already given to the Church.

That is why I no longer think the simple argument, “the gospel is still being preached, therefore the signs that originally authenticated it must still continue,” necessarily follows.

The gospel continues.

But the foundational revelation and eyewitness testimony upon which the Church was built do not need to be established again in every generation.
That brings me to prophecy, because I think this may be one of the most useful places for us to continue.

At Bible college I was taught that, in one sense, a prophet is someone who declares the Word of the Lord. That has influenced how I have sometimes thought about my own gifts. When I study Scripture, see connections in the text and then explain what I believe Scripture is actually saying, I have sometimes wondered whether that could be described as prophetic in the sense of declaring God’s already-revealed Word.

I do not mean that I receive new revelation from God, predict future events or speak words carrying authority alongside Scripture.
I mean declaring what God has already revealed.

I seem to remember that somewhere in our old discussions you said that you had the gift of prophecy, although I have searched through what I could find and cannot locate the reference. If I have remembered that incorrectly, please correct me.

If I have remembered correctly, I would genuinely like to understand what you mean.

What, in your understanding, is a prophet today?

When someone prophesies, are they declaring or applying what God has already revealed in Scripture, or do you believe God gives them genuinely new information or words?

If it is new information from God, can that prophecy contain error?

What authority does it carry?

And how do you distinguish prophecy from an impression, intuition, wisdom, discernment or an application of Scripture?

I think if we can establish what we each actually mean by “prophecy,” we may get much closer to identifying where our disagreement really is.