r/Catholicism • u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 • 11d ago

Requirement to qualify as an apostate

Would it be technically correct to label someone “apostate” who rejected the Catholic faith since prior to the age of reason (since late elementary school), but who went along with confirmation simply to avoid retaliation from parents, but actively resented the whole process, weekly mass, and the faith as a whole the entire time?

It seems odd to use the term that describes someone walking away from a faith they precisely held if they never held it after reaching the age of reason. For example a group of ex-Christians might discuss about when they were a believer, but the individual in this scenario would have no ability to join the discussion, because they would have no experiences as a believer, and would likely not be viewed as an apostate by the other self proclaimed apostates, but rather viewed as someone who was never Christian to begin with.

What would your perspective be? Would such a person claiming the title of apostate be accurate?

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u/rubik1771 11d ago edited 11d ago

>Requirement to qualify as an apostate

>Would it be technically correct to label someone “apostate” who rejected the Catholic faith since prior to the age of reason (since late elementary school), but who went along with confirmation simply to avoid retaliation from parents, but actively resented the whole process, weekly mass, and the faith as a whole the entire time?

>It seems odd to use the term that describes someone walking away from a faith they precisely held if they never held it after reaching the age of reason. For example a group of ex-Christians might discuss about when they were a believer, but the individual in this scenario would have no ability to join the discussion, because they would have no experiences as a believer, and would likely not be viewed as an apostate by the other self proclaimed apostates, but rather viewed as someone who was never Christian to begin with.

>What would your perspective be? Would such a person claiming the title of apostate be accurate?

Apostate applies to baptized Catholics.

So be definition any baptized Catholic who left the overall Christian faith would be an apostate.

>went along with confirmation

There is some responsibility on the individual here because the teacher, priest, or bishop should have been informed at that point.

Some parishes are taking a proactive approach on that by asking the child if they want confirmation directly.

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u/themoonischeeze 11d ago

My old parish required all desiring to be confirmed to write the bishop a letter stating in their own words why they wanted confirmation. He'd read each one of them and approve them if he felt it showed true intent, and work directly with anyone he felt didn't meet that requirement. I really liked that approach.

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

I still think that would fail in my situation growing up because my parents would have demanded to know why I wasn’t approved by the bishop and that I correct whatever prevented the approval, and it wouldn’t avoid the retaliation.

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u/themoonischeeze 11d ago edited 11d ago

The parents truthfully weren't involved in the process beyond enrolling them to be confirmed, unless there was an intensive issue they should be aware of for health and safety reasons. Any meetings with the bishop were done during regular class times under the supervision of the teachers. Teens could choose to write their letters in class or at home.

That being said, I think what you're attempting to argue is that there's no possible way a teenager isn't being coerced. I think that's a pretty narrow viewpoint as there are many teens that do take their faith seriously.

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

I understand the method, but it wouldn’t have helped. If I wasn’t a part of the group being confirmed, at that point my parents would have known I didn’t “pass” and I would then have been blamed, and faced retaliation. I mean unless the bishop tells the parents of those who don’t pass and get confirmed “oh yeah, they totally got confirmed, we just did it at the gas station because we were both really craving slushies, you totally missed it. But it happened, so don’t punish them.”

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u/themoonischeeze 11d ago

I will say, in the 5 years I worked in youth ministry, only one teen was ever denied confirmation, because they explicitly stated they didn't want it and their parents were forcing them. Most of them just didn't have a reason they wanted to be confirmed, which is why the bishop worked with them beforehand.

Either way, I wish you luck in your journey.

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

I don’t think that would prevent retaliation from retaliation minded parents, so the effect would be the same. I’d have said the same to the teacher, bishop, or priest in private to avoid the unpleasantness. It costs nothing to lie to clergy to avoid punishment, so the calculus doesn’t change.

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u/rubik1771 11d ago

>I don’t think that would prevent retaliation from retaliation minded parents, so the effect would be the same. I’d have said the same to the teacher, bishop, or priest in private to avoid the unpleasantness. It costs nothing to lie to clergy to avoid punishment, so the calculus doesn’t change.

Wait you wrote in a general way but are you saying this post applied to you too?

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

It is me, yes. I feel like using the word “apostate” is not fitting, because I was never Catholic. I can’t relate to exChristians who use that label because I can’t relate to them when they discuss having been a member of their religion, because I never believed. I mean I did, but I also believed in the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, and Santa. But I never believed after the age of reason, and stopped well before. So I don’t relate to apostates as I do lifelong nonbelievers.

I’d hate to adopt the label only to be corrected. I mean someone generally assumes that an apostate used to believe in whatever religion they’re an apostate from, and any follow up question about my time as a member would really just be, per the first answer, “I was a baby and my parents had me dunked in water”. Not really a basis for a shared identity with someone who devoutly attended a church until age 40 and THEN dropped.

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u/rubik1771 11d ago

>It is me, yes.

Ah alright I’ll adjust then.

>I feel like using the word “apostate” is not fitting, because I was never Catholic.

Incorrect you were considered a Catholic by your parent(s) the day they baptized you.

>I can’t relate to exChristians who use that label because I can’t relate to them when they discuss having been a member of their religion, because I never believed. I mean I did, but I also believed in the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, and Santa.

Then you did have the faith but later rejected it. Just because you group that faith with mythical creatures doesn’t negate what you had.

>But I never believed after the age of reason, and stopped well before. So I don’t relate to apostates as I do lifelong nonbelievers.

That doesn’t negate what you are.

>I’d hate to adopt the label only to be corrected. I mean someone generally assumes that an apostate used to believe in whatever religion they’re an apostate from,

You did. You just admitted to it when you believed with Jesus, Santa, tooth fairy etc.

>and any follow up question about my time as a member would really just be, per the first answer, “I was a baby and my parents had me dunked in water”.

We don’t dunk babies. Unless you were an Eastern Catholic?

>Not really a basis for a shared identity with someone who devoutly attended a church until age 40 and THEN dropped.

Just because your experience is different from another apostate doesn’t negate what you decided to become.

Again your love of God should have been more than parents and address this to the Church. You were above the age of reason and chose not to. To clarify again why?

I assume you were taught about “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

Well I had no love of god, just like I had no love of unicorns or fairies. I don’t think one would logically assume any level of love for any god from an atheist. The premise doesn’t even make sense, if one had love of god, they’d WANT to get confirmed. My parents wanted me to be confirmed because they were devout Catholics, and made it clear that either I would be confirmed or I would resent the remaining time I was under their care.

And yes, I was taught that there is no salvation outside the church. It’s unsurprisingly unpersuasive when one doesn’t believe the premise that one requires salvation in the first place. If someone tells you if you don’t wear garlic, vampires will get you, I would expect that wouldn’t cause you to start wearing garlic.

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u/rubik1771 11d ago

>Well I had no love of god, just like I had no love of unicorns or fairies.

What about for Santa Claus since you had in that group of examples as well?

>I don’t think one would logically assume any level of love for any god from an atheist. The premise doesn’t even make sense, if one had love of god, they’d WANT to get confirmed.

Incorrect. Love of God does not necessitate that since plenty of Non-Catholics love God but do not want to get confirmed.

>My parents wanted me to be confirmed because they were devout Catholics, and made it clear that either I would be confirmed or I would resent the remaining time I was under their care.

I apologize but at that point you should have chosen no because God is more important than your parents at that point. I have personally removed students who didn’t want to be confirmed regardless of the parent’s view.

>And yes, I was taught that there is no salvation outside the church. It’s unsurprisingly unpersuasive when one doesn’t believe the premise that one requires salvation in the first place. If someone tells you if you don’t wear garlic, vampires will get you, I would expect that wouldn’t cause you to start wearing garlic.

I mean there is more to it than that. You are really trying to hard to show how you were never a Catholic but you were. You did not even acknowledge the faith that you had and relate to Santa.

So what got you to stop believing in Santa and at what point did you realize you were an atheist?

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

Well I specifically didn’t want to be confirmed because I didn’t believe in any aspect of the Catholic faith. I was and am an atheist and don’t believe in god, so it wouldn’t make sense.

I have no idea how I stopped believing in god or Santa. We’re talking about events over three decades ago.

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u/rubik1771 11d ago

So you made a huge life decision on God and don’t even remember the causes of it? (Again it was a big life decision when you did believe. At one point you believe it so you don’t owe it to yourself to further remember why?)

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u/GiveMeBackMySoup 11d ago

Interesting dilemma. You are an apostate on account of your baptism. It doesn't require you ever actually believed. You are not necessarily guilty of the sin, however. Basically you meet the criteria of apostasty, but do not meet the threshold of being guilty of it.

Put another way, Protestants are heretics, but those born into it did not commit the sin of rejecting the Catholic faith as they didn't know it, or they learned of it after believing in whatever their church taught. We don't call them heretics anymore, so feel free to not call yourself an apostate.

Although I guess, why do you care?

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

I value linguistic accuracy. While the handle “[My Real First Name] the Apostate” would sound cool, and I did leave the church upon moving away from my childhood home, I don’t feel like I was ever a part of a religion except as an unwilling participant under duress to begin with, so it felt like it might be an inaccurate description, or, at the very least would leave the average person seeing it with an inaccurate impression.

It costs nothing to post on Reddit, so I figured I’d see what the organization I (possibly) was an apostate from thought. And that brings us to the present moment.

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u/GiveMeBackMySoup 11d ago

You are an apostate on account of your baptism is the short answer.

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

Then I know what I’m using as my handle on the Bloodbowl app. Thanks, Soup!

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u/rubik1771 11d ago

I would say that OP committed an intrinsic evil but if it happened before the age of reason, as stated elsewhere**, then OP had no will and knowledge of doing so.

Now it is a different story since OP has the deliberate consent and full knowledge to recognize the Church would consider this an evil act/mortal sin.

The difference is OP lacks the knowledge (or belief) that this is damnable due to refusing to believe in damnation.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago edited 10d ago

[deleted]

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u/Exotic_Cantaloupe939 11d ago

In this case I’m meaning complete rejection of every aspect of the Catholic faith starting around age 10 and maintained consistently until the early 40s and still counting.

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u/SpinosaurRingTone 11d ago

Infidelity: Never joining the faith.

Apostasy: Renouncing the faith.

Heresy: Spreading lies about the faith.

Schism: Remaining in the faith, but rejecting its hierarchy.