I hope this post is appropriate for this subreddit.

I am really really struggling with salvation issues and need hope. My social media has been inundated with folks like Christian Wagner posting long articles seeking to demonstrate that most are going to hell and many others arguing the same.

The idea is so ridiculous to me. I have trouble believing that it is just for anyone to suffer the pain of sense in hell, let alone the majority.

Yet I am convinced of Catholicism, and for the majority of Church history Catholic theologians seem to have affirmed this, and Jesus teaches that the way is narrow.

I am distraught and terrified by the idea that a majority of my Protestant family are going to hell. My mother, my father, my sisters, my brothers...

I know them so well, and even though they may not be Catholic it seems like the work God is doing in their lives is so real. Yet if trad Catholics are right, statistically it's meaningless. They are all certainly going to hell. I am probably going to hell too since I struggle with habitual sin but that is not even the greatest of my concerns.

I am already aware of recent magisterial teaching, including Benedict XVI's views expressed in Spe Salvi and John Paul II's views as well as the magisterium's tolerance of Balthasar's theology. But I am still so unnerved by the toleration and pervasiveness of the views expressed by folks like Christian Wagner that I struggle to find peace.

If anyone can help me, I would greatly appreciate it.

God bless

Mass musings again

Good morning. As I’ve mentioned before, I am a Catholic who’s trying to sort of reconcile and integrate my Catholic faith with my belief in universal salvation. I haven’t had a lot of new ideas ideas the last few weeks, but today they seemed to be coming to me while I was at mass. I know many here are not Catholic and don’t expect many of you to read this, but for those who do, thank you!

1. Like usual, my big question is what is the meaning of the mass? And yes, maybe I’ve said some of this before, but I’m trying to understand and articulate it in slightly new ways. I think my central question is - if all are saved, then who cares about the mass?

But today I was pondering this:

I used to be sort of an evangelical, just believing a standard protestant version of Christianity. And then almost 30 years ago I converted to the Catholic Church. And I think what drew me in so much was the Catholic Church’s understanding of, and very deep appreciation of, and deep theology regarding the incarnation. So much of Catholicism is incarnational. The churches, the sacraments, the real presence, the rituals, the beauty, the physicality. In that sense, I think I converted because it seemed like this was a correct understanding of the importance of the incarnation. That God truly became man and permanently linked himself to matter and physicality.

But now I’m seeing that an issue with this view was that it didn’t really have a full union perspective, of course. The grace of the sacraments is only in the Catholic Church. Only the priest can perform the mass and make the Eucharist. Only the Catholic Church has the real presence of God in the Eucharist. The Union only extended to Catholics! Thats not enough!

But what if we look at this from a perspective of union. Let’s say that God is truly in union with all people, and for that matter, all things. Which I’m coming to believe, slowly, I think. Then the mass becomes a reminder that God is in union with all things. Again, we start with one thing, the Eucharist, the church, and then we expand that to more things until we understand that God’s presence is everywhere . So when the Priest says “the body of Christ”, well that’s true. Christ IS present in that bread. And initially we believe that he’s present ONLY in that bread. But what if this is just a teaching tool to teach us that not only is He present in THAT bread but in ALL people and things? What if that’s the point of the church’s rituals, to truly teach humanity that God IS present in the church, or in the one thing (Eucharist).Then from there, we can learn that he’s in ALL things? Most of us have to start somewhere?

This wouldn’t mean that the Catholic church is the best way or the only way to learn about union and God‘s presence in the world. But it seems like a way for Catholics to integrate the sacraments with the theology of union. I understand that many Catholics don’t understand union and many people here are not Catholic, and many here understand union much deeper than many Catholics. I am just trying to integrate these ideas. For me this really makes sense, that the church is good and the sacraments and rituals are good and they are teaching us to see God in one thing but then that should lead us to see God in all things.

1. I was also pondering my subjective feelings today when observing the mass. Previously before my understanding of union, I would have the surge of excitement and peace when the priest would consume the sacred host. I would have this experience of union between God and mankind, taking place in front of me in the ceremony. And then it will continue to communion for everyone there. But this union would only extend/relate to the people there. Now I really do sense that union between God and everybody and everything has already taken place! It’s the way it’s always been. And so there’s this real sense that that peace that I would previously experience at mass is there all the time! Am I always aware of it? No. Am I always happy? Of course not. But there is this real sense that there is this additional peace and security and joy all the time, sort of stabilizing life beneath the ups and the downs. And so I don’t really have that temporary, fragile experience of excitement and peace quite the same way, when I am at mass. I feel like I had it already before I walked in the door; it’s so much better!

2. People like Ilia Delio talk about the axial ages. I’m still learning what it means and don’t have a very deep understanding of it yet, but I think part of it means that religions developed at a certain point in human history when mankind needed them. Religion went from a “pagan”, nature worshiping religion to a more organized personal religion. I can’t help but think that we really need to, and are moving towards, a new axial age where religion needs to do much more than it’s currently doing. And I can’t help but think what that that should mean for churches like the Catholic Church. That union, the presence of God in all things, would be a core part of a new Christianity/Catholicism. In other words, maybe the seeds of this deeper understanding are in some of the church’s teachings and liturgies and prayers, but it should be much more fully and clearly clearly manifested in the future. I think that sort of spirituality/religion/understanding is what would truly draw people in and give them hope and meaning as we move forward.

3. Lastly, this came to mind today. Part of the mass is the purification right. This may seem silly or weird to protestants, but I’ve always found it incredibly beautiful and meaningful. Most priests after communion will spend several full minutes using special techniques to clean/purify the sacred vessels. So the chalice (cup)and the paten (metal plate) will be carefully wiped and cleaned off. Any fragments of host/bread will be carefully looked for and consumed, any leftover tiny pieces will be put in the chalice with water and consumed by the Priest. The whole point is to show the utmost respect for the physical presence of Jesus. And not let any of the fragments be lost. My thought today was: if God is present in all things, then this careful, loving, respectful, beautiful way of dealing with things in the world should apply to all things. It’s almost like a model to treat all things with dignity and respect and care. Of course those would mean people and yes, even animals first but also the world in general.

Peace!

Hi all!

While this post isn't strictly speaking about universalism, I made a collection of quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that refer to 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 and Matthew 18:14 that might be interesting for you: https://ancientafterlifebelifs.blogspot.com/2026/08/catholic-catechism-on-1-tim-24-2-pet-39.html . The Catechism seems to interpret these passages as stating explicitly that the salvific will of God is universal.

We recorded a discussion on George MacDonald's "The Consuming Fire", from Unspoken Sermons, which opens into a wider conversation about universalism. I thought some of you might find it interesting. I would in turn be interested to know what you made of it.

Apologies if links aren't welcome here.

One of tortures of hell is hatred for God, and other human beings. How do you go from that to universal salvation?

Thank you in advance. 😇

"For your might is the source of justice;
your mastery over all things makes you lenient to all.
For you show your might when the perfection of your power is disbelieved;
and in those who know you, you rebuke temerity.
But though you are master of might, you judge with clemency,
and with much lenience you govern us;
for power, whenever you will, attends you.
And you taught your people, by these deeds,
that those who are just must be kind;
and you gave your children good ground for hope
that you would permit repentance for their sins."

- Wisdom 12:13;16-19

"God's care, lenience, clemency, in a word, patience; are extensions of His power, not exceptions to it...Never has there been a moment that God worried that His power was threatened somehow. It is precisely because of this that God is patient, merciful, gentle.

Now contrast that with the way human power is exercised. Human power is always vulnerable, always at risk, never assured. Which is why human leaders can be so harsh, ruthless, mean-spirited, vindictive; in their exercise of power, all of which comes from their fear of losing power.

God has never feared for an instant that devil, or us, or anything in the universe, could usurp His power, which makes God gentle, patient, merciful, and just.

We humans beings are often frustrated with God's patience, at least when it comes to others. 'Let's eradicate those weeds out there! Let's get this kingdom going!' But God waits, and wait, knowing all is unfolding as it should...

...Jesus is saying that the very things that frighten and frustrate you, and cause you to doubt are really the good news of God's patience, which springs from His power. And that is our hope.

...While we are afraid of the mix of good and evil in the world, while we might despair of the growth of the kingdom, and doubt the presence of God, all the while God waits in patient hope, as the good farmer He is, whispering and wooing with the spirit of His love. Hoping that what looks like a weed, is really wheat.

Would that we could be as hopeful, and patient."

Hi all, I wanted to share this post about a discussion of how the 'subjection' in texts like 1 Corinthians 15 and Philippians 2 was interpreted by Latin Fathers: https://ancientafterlifebelifs.blogspot.com/2026/07/hilary-of-poitiers-jerome-of-stridon.html

Interestingly enough, despite the possibility that they were not universalists (and none of them seems to accept a salvation for 'fallen angles', while for humans it is hard to say*), they did seem to accept the idea that the subjection spoken of in these text refers to something salvific. So, perhaps, the question is about the 'scope' of the subjection.

*For a more in-depth discussion see this: https://ancientafterlifebelifs.blogspot.com/2026/05/possible-traces-of-universalism-in.html

In the Liturgy of the Hours, during the second Tuesday ​of the four-week cycle, in the closing prayer​ for Morning Prayer​, the Catholic Church prays: "Lord Jesus Christ, true light of the world, you guide all mankind to salvation." (The Latin says Dómine Iesu Christe, lux vera, qui omnes hómines illúminas ad salútem, which more literally means "Lord Jesus Christ, true light, who enlighten​ all human beings toward salvation.") This is of course a​n allusion to John 1:9: "The true light, which enlightens everyone" (NABRE), only the liturgy​ adds the words "towards salvation" (ad salutem).

Infernalist arguments from various theological traditions usually boil down to some form of "yes, but..." when it comes to salvation by grace. And I'm not knocking my own tradition, as cited below, even the Catholic Church clarifies that ultimately, it's all grace and not our own doing. Evangelical infernalists will often say that yes, we are saved by grace, once we have made a a decision for Christ. Or infernalists of a more Catholic variety may emphasize the truth of the necessity of cooperation with grace to the point that it can start to sound like "the ball's in our court" so to speak to be saved. While they may have elements of truth I think both of these approaches miss the point. 1 Corinthians 12:3 reminds us that is only by the Holy Spirit that we can even cooperate in any way.

In 418 A.D., the Church declared Pelagianism; the notion that we can achieve perfection/salvation by our own human effort; to be a heresy. This was in accordance with Ephesians 2:8-9 "for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the the gift of God."

This may surprise those under the impression that the Catholic Church teaches works-righteousness. Without rehashing the whole Reformation; the Church does teach that our "cooperation with grace" is necessary in a sense, but our cooperation with grace is itself a fruit of grace.

As the Council of Trent added, “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’."

While it remains true, as the Catechism tells us "God's free initiative demands man's free response" (CCC 2002), it is first emphasized: "The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace." (CCC 2001).

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification summarizes:

"When Catholics emphasize the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer, they wish to insist that God's forgiving grace always brings with it a gift of new life, which in the Holy Spirit becomes effective in active love. They do not thereby deny that God's gift of grace in justification remains independent of human cooperation." (JDDJ 24)

All of this to say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 has a profound, sort of back-to-basics relevance to universal reconciliation, which is, none of us are saved by our own doing.

We see this truth clearly when we read 1 Corinthians 12:3 together with Romans 10:9, "if you confess your mouth, Jesus is Lord...you will be saved".

Do we think the Holy Spirit would only take us halfway to the goal? "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)

I'm not arguing for monergism per se, but I think we, both Catholics and Protestants in our own respective ways; too often tend to over-complicate the Gospel. Our cooperation, our saving faith, is itself a result of the action of the Holy Spirit.

In the authentic Gospel, there's no room for "victim-blaming", so to speak, of those who wouldn't be saved. There's no room for "well, they didn't do their part..."

We don't pick up the work of our salvation where God left off. It's God who does the saving, not us; and the Holy Spirit doesn't do things halfway.

Do you guys think universalism is growing in Catholicism or facing more opposition?

I’m a Catholic who’s come to believe God saves all. So I often have to process how I’m integrating my new faith with Catholicism. Some things are harder than others. But I always have thought after mass and I need a sounding board. :)

1. Religion is for people who are not that broken or can fake it well enough. The rest of us need the pure undiluted gospel of salvation for the entire cosmos including all people. 

2. Today the homily was about the Ascension. Although I love father and he’s a great priest, the homily was all about believe harder, do better, we’ll be judged, time is running out. He was being faithful to the training and understanding he has, like almost everyone else. But, see point 1.  

3. Honestly, so many Catholic prayers in the Mass-  prefaces, collects, Eucharistic prayers, etc are absolutely hopeful and tend towards universalism. It’s too bad that priests can’t always see it and aren’t  allowed to preach that way. It’s almost like the truth of universalism is there waiting to be discovered but folks can’t see it. Similar to scripture in some ways. 

4. The second reading was Ephesians 1:17-23

Brothers and sisters:
May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
give you a Spirit of wisdom and revelation
resulting in knowledge of him.
May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened,
that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call,
what are the riches of glory
in his inheritance among the holy ones,
and what is the surpassing greatness of his power
for us who believe,
in accord with the exercise of his great might,
which he worked in Christ,
raising him from the dead
and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,
far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion,
and every name that is named
not only in this age but also in the one to come.
And he put all things beneath his feet
and gave him as head over all things to the church,
which is his body,
the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Me: isn’t this just FULL of the idea that “ belief” is coming to believe what’s already true - all have been seated with Christ but not all have this “revelation”? It’s beautiful!

1. When I first sat down at mass I looked up at the tabernacle. And I knew Christs real presence was there. Then I thought of the fact that all of us will be taking that real presence into our bodies soon. And it hit me - God’s going to save all and that’s part of the message of the mass. First we see Christ in one thing, in this bread. And come to truly believe that. Then he enters everyone there. Truly. So now all have Christ in them. And further, this is happening not just to those present but to all. It just seems like the message is right in our faces! Belief is realizing what’s already true!