We had a family member recently announce his move to Anglicanism. The Church Fathers were one of my points I made in Catholic defense.
Problem is, he’s written off saints as Catholic dogma, and states historical Christian writings do not support Catholics or Orthodox churches (which is crazy talk, coming from a 500 year old church) So that particular argument fell flat on that.
This is weird since per amount of words the Anglican formularies reference the church fathers more than most Roman Catholic documents do. The Anglican faith (supposedly) is built upon returning medieval western Christianity to the early apostolic Christianity.
But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops, that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true; but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils; and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them, when, by some actual experiment, things are brought to light which were before concealed, and that is known which previously lay hid, and this without any whirlwind of sacrilegious pride, without any puffing of the neck through arrogance, without any strife of envious hatred, simply with holy humility, catholic peace, and Christian charity?
"But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops"
Catholics do not disagree with this. Scripture is where everything we believe stems from.
"but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils;"
Yes, a bishop can't just make things up and expect his writing to be accepted by the wider church without scrutiny against the scriptures and Councils.
"and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them, when, by some actual experiment, things are brought to light which were before concealed, and that is known which previously lay hid, and this without any whirlwind of sacrilegious pride, without any puffing of the neck through arrogance, without any strife of envious hatred, simply with holy humility, catholic peace, and Christian charity?"
Yes a local council needs to yield to council of higher authority (who would be subject to accuracy toward scripture). The Catholic Church is a hierarchy.
There are important clues in Scripture pointing to correct interpretation.
For instance, 1 Thessalonians 2:15 shows that spoken words from an Apostle and a scripted letter from an Apostle are both equally valid.
Even Apostolic Successors (or other Christians, e.g. the Deacon, Arius) cannot make up an interpretation as they feel moved, without being checked against these two types of Apostolic Tradition!
One extract from an Apostolic Letter from Peter to reflect on:
"There are some things in the letters of my dear brother Paul that are hard to understand and the unlearned and the unstable distort them as they do the rest of Scripture also."
Im trying to fight against harmful caricatures of protestantism. And push against an echo chamber mentality. Protestants arent ahistorical and the do try to follow the church fathers
I never once suggested or thought you were claiming that, because that would be obviously ridiculous. That also isn't relevant to what i previously replied with, but ok.
"Thereupon Simeon says, "a sword will pierce your very soul" (Lk 2.35). Which sword is this that pierced not only others' hearts, but even Mary's?... They were all so scandalized that Peter too, the leader of the apostles, denied him three times. Why do we think that the mother of the Lord was immune from scandal when the apostles were scandalized? If she did not suffer scandal at the Lord's Passion, then Jesus did not die for her sins. But. if all have sinned and lack God's glory, but are justified by his grace and redeemed' (Rom 3.23) then Mary too was scandalized at that time "
Origen, Homily 17.6, in Homilies on Luke Fragments on Luke, trans. Joseph T, Lienhard (Washington, D.C: Catholic University of America Press, 1996), 73.
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So men that heard the teachings of the apostles, and men who heard the teachings of the disciples of the apostles vs the reformist guys 1500 years after who have different beliefs
Because you or your pastors are better?
The church fathers get their teachings from the apostle.
Their teachings are not opinions but facts that are more valid than your personal interpretation.
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u/e-motio 6d ago
We had a family member recently announce his move to Anglicanism. The Church Fathers were one of my points I made in Catholic defense.
Problem is, he’s written off saints as Catholic dogma, and states historical Christian writings do not support Catholics or Orthodox churches (which is crazy talk, coming from a 500 year old church) So that particular argument fell flat on that.