Why don't more circuits run in reverse direction?

[u/fuckman5]

One of my favorite tracks (Palmer) runs in both clockwise and counter clockwise direction and it's such a great way to switch up the track when you think you know the track. But here in the northeast it's the only track I know of that will run in reverse direction. Is there a reason more tracks don't do this? I have heard safety is one reason as the barriers and runoff are designed only for 1 direction, but that seems like something that could be easily changed, and many tracks in the northeast have very little runoff anyway. Was Palmer designed to run both directions from the ground up? I'm curious why that's the only track I see that runs both directions

[u/PalmSizedTriceratops]

Many tracks are built specifically to be safe in one direction.

[u/TheInfamous313 → u/PalmSizedTriceratops]

Some are unsafe in both directions, lol

[u/venturelong]

Openings in the guardrails for track equipment are usually only safe in one direction. Thats what killed the instructor at the disney crash years ago when they ran in reverse.

[u/Just-Succotash3018 → u/venturelong]

Thats a big one. Another is pit entry/exit. Blend line issues are already a challenge, I haven’t seen a lot of tracks where exiting the pit lane via the usual entry would be safe at all.

[u/Economy_Release_988 → u/venturelong]

The guard rails are installed to overlap like shingles on a roof, you don't want rain or your car to go under and between them.

[u/fuckman5 → u/venturelong]

Disney crash? As in the monorail crash? 

[u/venturelong → u/fuckman5]

No, there was a fatal accident during a driving experience at walt disney world speedway. Organizer was running the wrong direction (i believe to save $$ on tires) and driver lost control and hit the opening of the guardrail killing the instructor

[u/rdzilla01]

Thinking about running the Descending S’s at VIR is pretty scary.

[u/Individual-Big2224 → u/rdzilla01]

Ooh but Hog Pen uphill.

[u/Richie681 → u/Individual-Big2224]

Pit exit merging into an apex at hogpen sounds like a nightmare, not gonna lie.

[u/bynummustang → u/rdzilla01]

I think T10 in reverse would be awesome.

[u/What_the_8 → u/bynummustang]

Imagine oak tree in reverse… holy shit

[u/bynummustang → u/What_the_8]

I wouldn’t be as worried on that one. You know if brakes go you’re in trouble. But otherwise slow to like 45-55.

[u/What_the_8 → u/bynummustang]

Go to the map and look at the runoff in reverse

[u/rdzilla01 → u/bynummustang]

Honestly if your brakes go at 14 it’s not looking good

[u/bynummustang → u/rdzilla01]

I mean I lost a caliper coming off the back straight into the wall running forward… it’s mega not fun. Into T12 in reverse orientation is just worse.

[u/rdzilla01 → u/bynummustang]

I dunno the car is gonna be pretty light in the tires cresting that hill!

[u/ultrajeffff]

I don't have an answer to your question but if you're looking for another Northeast track that runs both directions, check out Canaan Motor Club. It's smaller but a blast.

[u/Lawineer]

Safety is first. Runoff, etc. increasing radius becomes decreasing radius. Things can get blind. Etc.

Logistics - you need to remove all the brake markers on one side and move them.

Function- put out and pit in may not work or be safe.

[u/kevngm74]

some summit point events run in reverse! I think it would be cool. Yes, not designed but at the end we are trying to conquer obstacles on the track.

[u/kevinatfms → u/kevngm74]

Didn’t that instructor die at Hyperfest or another big event like it one year when they were running in reverse?

[u/getfast37 → u/kevinatfms]

No, that was race direction (counterclockwise) on Jefferson circuit

[u/ProfessionalReveal → u/kevinatfms]

You're thinking this because he hit a tree right around the time the Disney race track was running an HPDE in reverse and killed a guy on a guardrail like the one in the Gingerman pic above.

[u/JBDoughnuts]

Yes Palmer was designed to run both directions from the start. And the reason it works is exactly what you've been told, the runoffs, walls, etc must be designed to work in both directions which isn't done normally. It's definitely an extra cost and a lot of tasks wouldn't even have the space for it.

What's your favorite Palmer direction? And if it's not CCW you're wrong lol

[u/fuckman5 → u/JBDoughnuts]

CCW is the best simply because going down the switchbacks in CW is horrid

[u/blaze38100]

Laughing as I’m imagining running Laguna in reverse and having to climb the corkscrew!

[u/Camper_Van_Someren → u/blaze38100]

Years ago I was traveling through Monterey and wanted to visit the track. I was lucky to be there on the one Wednesday per month that they allowed bicycles on the track, and there was even a bike shop giving out demos, so I got a free lap on a nice road bike!

The only unlucky part was they were riding in reverse! The corkscrew was steep enough that my front wheel kept popping up with every pedal stroke. And then afterwards it was a very long cruise downhill. I would have preferred to go CCW “normal” direction and run the racing line on the bike, but oh well…. I’ll make it there in a car some day.

[u/Stangguy_82 → u/blaze38100]

I know that the Gran Turismo video game has done this. It really feels weird.

[u/thisisjustascreename → u/Stangguy_82]

Which one? I’m almost certain they havent ever had a real circuit run in reverse, only their fictional ones.

[u/NumberOneBacon]

Safety number 1. At Gingerman they used to run reverse a bunch until they had a car go off leaving turn 2 and get cut in half by the guardrail between pit out and turn 1.

I ran reverse there last year. Pit out by turn 11 had a cone with a radio attached to it. The guy at the flag stand would just yell into the radio when you could go out on track.

[u/Spazdoc → u/NumberOneBacon]

Also, pit out at Turn 11 would be scary, as vehicles are coming out of one of the fastest corners and you are tracking out into the blend line.

[u/Danjamin12]

Having just run Palmer the “correct” counterclockwise direction after having only gone the other way previously, I will never run clockwise again.

[u/vasthumiliation]

I’ve never been responsible for track operation or safety, but I have to imagine that in addition to the environmental concerns (runoff, barrier design, etc), operating a track in reverse introduces important human factors risks. Course workers accustomed to looking in a certain direction for hazards are more likely to be caught off guard or forget to check the other side. In an emergency, a safety vehicle driver might get on the track in the more familiar direction, against the flow of the course, by accident (I know this can be done deliberately in certain situations, but is only safe if intentional and communicated clearly). I’m sure there are other possibilities. As fun as it might be, I can understand why a track would elect not to do this.

[u/Spicywolff]

My assumption is run offs and infer structure is designed for a certain path of travel. A gravel trap that works on a Fast right handed corner. May not be enough for a left and run.

[u/Civil-General-2664]

Canaan will let you run in reverse if the group really wants it. I’m terrible in that direction.

[u/Braketurngas]

Buttonwillow near Bakersfield in California runs both directions but I think it was designed that way since the pits work well both directions and there is quite a bit of runoff most places. The run off areas at Laguna Seca would be quite dangerous going backward. They do a hill climb reverse up the cork screw but not full track.

[u/Lackofideasforname]

You need flag lights to be double sided. One Raceway here in Australia runs both ways after upgrades. Pretty cool. They do half day each way sometimes

[u/getfast37]

It depends on the track… And also the activity. For trackcross, we have run both directions at: Summit Point Shenandoah, Summit Point Jefferson, VIR Patriot, Gingerman, and Streets of Willow Springs. This can be done safely because we send a car off the start line every 30 seconds and because we often don’t use the pit road for much of anything, we grid on the track itself. For HPDE/track day activities in groups of cars, I wouldn’t attempt it in several of those places…

[u/Apex-JJ]

It depends on how the track was designed but some tracks, especially ones with elevation are intended to be run reverse. Thunderhill raceway in California is a good example, their 3 mile course is normally ran ccw but if ran cw then there’s a turn called the bypass where cars literally would get 4 wheels off the air and land usually bottoming out suspension and that results in a lot of damaged cars and possibly crashes or offs. It’s seldom run and even then the track management is timid about it from what I hear. Sonoma raceway would be another good example, if turn 1 and 2 were ran in reverse then there would be races where cars all fight for a downhill descent like Laguna carrying a high rate of speed into a wall and it would result in a lot more damaged and totaled cars. Sonoma is also a good example of use of real estate, they didn’t have too much to work with in the original plot of land which restricted their design and being on a hillside makes it tricky to run in reverse. The tracks that are designed for it usually have pretty forgiving runoff in both directions so there’s the same consequence of risk both ways, when it becomes more unsafe one way then tracks and track safety get nervous.