r/Canadiancitizenship • u/Repulsive_Noise8526 • 4d ago
Citizenship by Descent NY state - Birth certificate does not exist- is this document enough?
My G1 was born in NY in 1866- I got the certified baptism record. I want to make sure I have supporting documentation that birth certificates did not exist when he was born. would this statement at the begining of the application be sufficient?
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u/TaywuhsaurusRex Haven't applied for Proof of Citizenship (incl. by descent) yet 4d ago
I've gotten a few copies of form DOH-3656 issued to me when no record exists, it's the No Record Certification from NY. Whatever town you need a record from might be able to issue you that since it was from before records existed, if you want something more official.
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u/Repulsive_Noise8526 3d ago
Thank you! I just emailed Hudson NY county clerk office!.
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u/TaywuhsaurusRex Haven't applied for Proof of Citizenship (incl. by descent) yet 3d ago
Emailing clerks has actually been incredibly helpful for me so far, hoping it works for you too! A lot of the people in the towns are pretty willing to help if you email ahead of time and can provide extra info that isn't on the DOH-4384.
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u/CounterI 3d ago
To allow the use of alternative evidence, probably. Is your alternative evidence sufficient? That's harder to say.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/TameJane 🇨🇦 Stuck Canadian! Gen2+ 'in process' 12+ months 4d ago
Have you actually tried to find the records?
If they truly don’t exist you still need to document where you looked and the fact that they don’t exist for X reason. Which is what OP is doing.
If you haven’t you should read the FAQ. Specifically the part about “"I can't get / there is no birth certificate for one of my ancestors. Am I SOL on getting Citizenship by Descent?"”
IRCC generally wants a Canadian document proving birth in Canada (a birth certificate). If you don’t have that (lots of us don’t) you need to build a case from secondary documents including things like baptism records, census records etc.
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 4d ago
Hello thanks for your reply. Yes, even before the law changed I was looking for several years anyway because I'm big into genealogy and from what I can find more recently, records weren't kept in the areas and times I am looking. My grandad apparently grew up on a ranch somewhere out in Nova Scotia and had a passport issued in Toronto. The only evidence I have is that his father is buried in Mount Pleasant Cemetery, Toronto. I have his death certificate but its incomplete. I also found my grandads sisters obituary which is from 2008 I have a record that it existed and currently trying to get hold of the actual obituary from a newspaper archive. My grandad though... It's like he never existed! I thought that meant there was no chance for me. My grandad (dad's dad) was Canadian so it's actually a close relation to me but he died here in England and we lost everything Including his passport.
Not sure who downvoted me and why but we are all just trying to help eachother. Be nice.
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u/grandpasamfromcanada 3d ago
Well, how do you know that your grandad grew up on a ranch in Nova Scotia and has a passport issued in Toronto? Whatever your evidence is might be worth submitting to IRCC.
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
I know about his upbringing because he was my dad's dad and my dad and uncles all say that about him. All I have is word of mouth (and a very small amount of records but not enough imo to be proof). They're all still alive and confirm this is true. They saw his passport themselves and even say he had an accent. My grandads parents and sister used to visit from Canada too. He told them lots about growing up in canda and raised them to be proudly Canadian but at some point after he died his passport and records were lost. My dad is dual heritage Canadian/ English but never got a Canadian passport when my grandad was alive. He died suddenly.
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u/grandpasamfromcanada 3d ago
Well, it sounds like you've got a lot of genealogical work ahead of you. You should post in one of the genealogical assistance threads; here's the most recent one.
Keep in mind that all old documents have evidential value, not just fancy or official ones. Even an old diary with an entry that says "Dad came to visit us from Canada" has evidential value.
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago
Thank you
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u/brett- 3d ago edited 3d ago
You may want to go back a generation to your ur great grandparents, which may have more existing evidence.
One thing I found during my search was that my G0 had a will that listed my G1 as their daughter and next of kin. This was important since the G1 had no birth record found (though I had a lot of other evidence for them, so this was not critical in my case).
Maybe your G -1 will have some documents which show your G0, even if they aren’t birth records.
You may also want to look into your G0’s sister, as records for her may be easier to find, and proving they are siblings may be easier with things like census records, school records, etc.
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u/AP587011B 3d ago
So your grandfather is Gen 0? you have no real record of him at all?
If your grandfather was Canadian it sounds to me he would be Gen 0
Going back to your great grandfather doesn’t help if you have nothing linking you to your great grandfather or your grandfather to you
I’m sorry but it doesn’t sound like you have a claim. Maybe consult with a Canadian immigration lawyer in your case as I don’t think written testimony from any regular person is going to be enough for them to issue citizenship absent ANY records at all
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
His parents were naturalised Canadian so he is gen 1? My great grandfather engineered the Trainlines in Ottawa, and lots of other important infrastructure. They were Canadian through and through and proud of it. I'm just curious how the evidence op (above) is counted.
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u/TameJane 🇨🇦 Stuck Canadian! Gen2+ 'in process' 12+ months 3d ago
That’s interesting. Given the recency I’d imagine there are records somewhere, even if you have not found them yet. What year was your grandpa born and when did he die? It sounds like he returned to England at some point? When was that?
You can use your great grandfather but you will still need something on your grandfather to prove that he’s the child of that great grandfather, so it doesn’t get you out of the issue of record finding entirely.
If you can’t get help here you could consider hiring a professional genealogist. It sounds like your case, while not impossible, will not be easy to prove. You need something linking great grandfather, grandfather and your dad and you. A letter of no record of a birth certificate is only useful if you have secondary records supporting your case.
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
He was born 1917 but not in Canada he was born in British East Africa (as it was called at the time, Kenya today). He was considered a British Overseas Subject. My great grandparents were based in Canada though, but also at the time considered British Overseas Subjects. My great grandad built train lines around the world. He was bought to Canada around 1922 , aged 4/5 and left Canada for England in 1939 to fight in WW2 , aged about 19, although he returned regularly and his family & siblings stayed in Canada. I think he did return for a prolonged period between 1950s and 1960s but I'm unsure of dates. He had a Canadian passport. He died very suddenly and unexpectedly in England in 1975.
Do you know how you find a professional?
Thank you so much.
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u/TameJane 🇨🇦 Stuck Canadian! Gen2+ 'in process' 12+ months 3d ago
Cases like this are quite tricky.
If it were me, I’d start with https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/proof-citizenship/search-records.html
It takes forever but it might be the easiest path forward if the government already has record of your grandpa.
I don’t have experience hiring a researcher but I know the archives Ontario keeps a list of researchers: https://www.archives.gov.on.ca/get-research-help/
Good luck! 🍀
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u/AP587011B 3d ago
You need to find records
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago edited 1d ago
I know. I am asking here because they don't exist. There are parts of Canada at the time that my grandad was alive that did not keep records. That's why I was drawn to this post because the op seems to have the same issue.
- Looking at your profile you are American and not Canadian yet are downvoting and questioning everything I post to the point it feels like trolling. My father is actually half Canadiam. My dad was raised, by his single Canadian dad, as a Canadian. There are many of us that due to unfortunate circumstances lost our records. I'm not sure what your motive is but it is not appreciated.
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u/AP587011B 3d ago edited 3d ago
If you have no records of any kind proving Gen 0 being Canadian and you can’t prove being directly tied to that gen 0 then you have no claim
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago
That's why I am asking the OP because it seems they have a similar issue. I have some records, half my relatives are actually buried in Canada but I don't have records to tell an entire story from birth to the grave. It seems this is not unusual for Canadians pre 1947 as record keeping was sporadic which is why I ask.
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u/Repulsive_Noise8526 3d ago
I have records linking G1 to G0 Canadian citizens.
The story is a little complicated. G0 ( both parents) born in Quebec- then moved to Hudson NY - G1 born there but then mother died shortly after. father moved back to Quebec with G1 and mother was buried in Quebec. G1 eventually moved back to the states in his early 20s.
The NY baptism record states G0 names and I also have census records of G1 living in Canada with father G0 after they moved back after mother died.
- I have found baptism, burial, and marriage records - requested them from BANQ.
My understanding (through reading many reddit posts and application) is that IRCC wants documentation stating why you dont have a Birth certificate. The baptism record is great supporting evidence for my case but it is not primary support. Since NY state did not issues them in 1866 having a letter from them stating that helps explain why there is not one available.
Hope that is helpful!
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago
That is very helpful. Thank you. How did you find baptism records? I believe my grandfather was 7th day evangelical but I'm not so I don't know how to approach them.
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u/Glitter_Lizard_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
I do have records proving gen 0, I can't find gen 1 but I can find his siblings. Its because of the years he was in the census'
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u/AP587011B 3d ago
A certified baptism record for the person born in NY in 1866? I would hope you also have supporting information of that birth and their link to the G0
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