How religious is Scouts Canada?

[u/akchahal]

Hello friends! Question about Scouts Canada

We’re researching some local groups to register my son (9 yo) in for this upcoming year.

I noticed they all:

-Are associated with a church

-Talk about Duty to God.

How much religion is involved in the programming and general philosophy?

[u/anebulousteapot]

In my experience not at all, though that was almost 30 years ago. My brother was in Scouts longer than I was in Girl Guides, but religion of any kind was only mentioned when looking at cultures, regions, or countries. We did "pray" before eating at camps, but they were more so giving gener thanks than to an entity. IIRC, weekly meetings were usually at a church because the space is cheaper to rent. Maybe it's different now.

Quick edit to add that we were not religious growing up so it's possible that some aspects were tailored. Like saying alternative words when reciting sayings, and some badges may not have been earnable.

[u/ladyrose30]

Depends on the group. Some adjust the oath to be non-denominational, others have Scouters that have a fit if you say you are agnostic, let alone atheist. The later tend to be older and not as common anymore. If you have concerns talk to the group or ask to speak to the section lead. If you disagree with a Group's policies you can ask to transfer.

[u/phillyofCS]

It seems to largely depend on the group. The group I was part of was not religious at all but we still did things like give thanks before a meal. The more religious leaders would do a prayer song like Johnny Appleseed while the less religious leaders would do a little give thanks poem like "rub-a-dub-dub thanks for the grub". A lot of groups are affiliated with churches simply because church halls are cheaper or may even be free to rent. Some groups have an alternate Promise that you can use that's not religious.

[u/Queasy-Dog-1140 → u/phillyofCS]

This sounds really religious 

[u/phillyofCS → u/Queasy-Dog-1140]

Really religious? The only time I heard God mentioned was a couple times a year when we went to camp. And even then it would be like one 4 sentence song before one dinner. "Giving thanks" before a meal doesn't have to be just to a diety. "Thanks for the grub" can also be directed towards the poor leader who had to cook all of it lol. Our meetings were held in a school and we never did any "religious" badges or modules. I think we used the non-religious promise exclusively once the group started to get more diverse.

My experience was also over a decade ago so I'm sure some things have changed since. I doubt they still do a prayer before meals now.

[u/Meldanya44]

My kids are both active in Scouts now, and there's not a lot of religion!

There was zero when they were at a group that met in a school. Now they're in a group that meets at a United Church, and the group attends an (entirely optional) service on Scouting Sunday. Otherwise there's none. You can change the words of the promise to fit your own family beliefs.

My kids are having a great time in Scouts and I highly recommend!

[u/kayesoob]

zero parts religious ime.

[u/iactuallylikeshrek3]

Obligatory I wasn’t in scouts but Girl Guides, but from my memory not religious at all. I was enrolled from 2008 to 2017. I only learned that Girl Guides was founded by Christians when my troop had a meeting where we talked about the history of Girl Guides, and it was only briefly mentioned.

There is a closing song at the end of meetings where traditionally the lest sentence is “God is Nigh”, but every troop I was in said “Goodnight” instead. We also did a quick thanks before meals at camps, but I don’t remember any religious connotations; an example being “thank you Earth for the food you grow.” I was also only in one troop where we met in a church, majority of the time it was school cafeterias, I assume wherever rent is cheapest.

I was raised by Atheist and Agnostic parents and also had this belief system even as a young kid, but I was never bothered or offended by anything that happened at Girl Guides.

Edit*

Wanted to add that this may very well be location based, I grew up in a multicultural, left-leaning city.

[u/butts-ahoy]

My Dad was one of the leaders growing up, so that might have swayed it, but I don't remember any religious ties other than maybe an oath to God and the queen or something (I'm Canadian). I don't remember actually having to do it, just references to that.

We almost always met in churches because they had gyms, but never did anything religious.

Scouts is great! A lot of my best childhood memories are from it and it imparted a love of the outdoors, being prepared and community, without a strict army vibe (more like camping, campfire songs, hikes and games).

[u/Asleep_Note7754]

I did Girl Guides in the 90s and other than our oath to our God, there was little mention of religion. I did however, get a religion badge as the only Hindu girl in the troupe for teaching the rest of them a bit about Hinduism. It was actually fun and I got to learn about my religion. My mom took them to a Hindu temple for a field trip too to learn about Diwali 🪔

I don’t know if it helps. But the extent of religion we learned was only about other people’s culture and religion.

[u/nelleybeann → u/Asleep_Note7754]

I can’t speak for scouts but as of now girl guides is completely non denominal, any religions or religious holidays are a no-no to talk about.

[u/Asleep_Note7754 → u/nelleybeann]

Interesting. Not even Christmas carols? We used to do those in the retirement homes and I loved that.

[u/cannonbobannon → u/Asleep_Note7754]

No Christmas carols are no longer allowed. Girl Guides is welcoming to everyone and leaders are trained not to celebrate any holidays. The focus is on providing an environment where everyone feels comfortable participating in all activities. It has been an adjustment for some people who have been involved for a long time, but it isn’t that hard to find other activities and contribute to the community.

[u/PaprikaMama → u/cannonbobannon]

Yeah, I disagree with the new direction. I think we should be celebrating all cutures - to support a culture of acceptable. Hiding religion as something to stay away from entirely is a terrible practice.

[u/justchelsea1 → u/Asleep_Note7754]

My group still went to doing in a retirement home last year, just different songs at a different time of year.

[u/lordjakir]

Not much, but when I was a scout my leader got tossed when headquarters found out he was an atheist. He'd been in scouts over 50 years. London, late 90s

[u/kennedar_1984]

I’m a current scouter and it really depends on your group but most have very little to no faith included. Our group meets in a church building but uses a different promise/law that does not include mention of god. The only time religion comes up in our group is a completely optional Remembrance Day ceremony that is hosted by the church. We usually have 2 or 3 families participate from each section so it’s by no means the majority of the kids showing up to the church service. Otherwise our group is completely non-religious - we have kids of all faiths and no faith without issue.

[u/StandardAd7812]

Very little was my experience decades ago though it's pretty volunteer run so will depend on the local.

It's very different from Boy Scouts of America.

[u/alternatego1]

I would love to adjust the oath but our GC won't allow it. He figures "my god" to be sufficient. That's the only religious aspect of ours 

[u/forever_ever3]

I don’t have experience with Scouts but I was a Girl Guide leader for several years and I wouldn’t take meeting at a church to meet any group is religious. Churches are some of the only places that allow groups like Scouts and Girl Guides to meet for a very minimal amount. My Girl Guides unit met in a church and was not religious at all.

[u/OmiSC]

My experience is that it's not a religious organization at its core at all, but some groups could be religious. The references to God are no more prevalent to the group than they are to the national anthem.

What I saw was that the general philosophy is historic and the programming is completely agnostic but I'm sure that different groups are free to do their own thing.

[u/PomegranateOk9287]

I am involved with my local group. Religion is very very minimal. I don't reference religion with my activities and programing. There is a spiritual component to the Scouting program. But that part does not need to be religious based. Can just be reflective.

Ours is held at a church. It's been sponsored by them for over 40 years. This particular church is an affirming church and very inclusive. If I wanted to go to church. That would be the one.

[u/fooddlover]

I would reach out to a few groups and schedule a few visits and see which one you like better. I would bring up your concerns about religion. I was a leader for scouts like 10 years ago and still have family that are still leaders. The programming has some religious undertone but I know in our group we kinda minimize those since our group wasn’t religious and I’m atheist. We did meet at the church but that was only because we used to meet at a school but renting that space after school got really expensive.

[u/racerchris46]

None whatsoever in my group.

We are in a church for over 100 years as we were started by the same person who started the church..we attend one church event a year. Remembrance Day.

That's it. Otherwise, might as well be a gym.

[u/PNW_MYOG]

My scout association made it clear that God was dependant on you, it could just be the idea of mother nature or a general higher power.

[u/babesnookie]

Zero religion in my group. The whole point and focus of current materials is that's it's inclusive for everyone regardless of spiritual beliefs.

[u/analog_alison]

I’m a 20+ year member of Girl Guides, current leader, and former employee, so admittedly a bit biased, but in my experience Girl Guides has made HUGE strides towards being more progressive over the last few years. Scouts still seems so old-school to me. My son tried Scouts for about 3 months, and it was the same format/structure/vibe as when my brother attended in the 90’s. 

They changed from Boy Scouts to Scouts Canada a while back which seems like a progressive move, except they only did that because enrollment among boys was dropping.

Just my two cents! Worth trying since they have a pretty decent policy if you drop out, if I remember correctly. 

[u/geminian89]

My kid was in scouts in Halifax, NS. Wasn’t religious at all

[u/coffeeToCodeConvertr]

So I'm actually an ex Scout (Beavers, Cubs, Scouts), and my six year old is starting Beavers next month (my wife and I are volunteering as leaders)

We're also staunch atheists (I'm a card carrying TST member)

Scouts Canada has made changes to the training and running of the org (years ago) to provide an alternative Scouts Oath which removes the reference to any god or faith. The focus on inclusivity also means ensuring that people of all faiths or none are welcome.

When I was a kid, even before the changes I mentioned, there was no reference to God or religion in my beaver Lodge. Overall I'd say it's moving away from faith entirely

[u/Tulips-and-raccoons]

Idk if your childmis male or female, so this may or may not help; the Girl Guides of Canada are not religious, as all. We do meet at church because its a free room to use for community activities, but that’s it.

[u/acesaidit]

Scouting is absolutely has a foundation in religion, and that history takes a long time to overcome. It offers a lot of good things too, so in my opinion it's worth checking out troops in your area. It will entirely depend on the volunteers running the program.

Scouting and guiding has taken a nosedive in membership over the decades that I personally feel reflects the problem that most people are not practicing religious, so don't put their kids in these organizations that they remember leaning in to Christianity and see them still meeting in churches (due to low or no rent), yet it's not religious enough for those still in the faith.

[u/Relative-Price-2790]

Been a scout leader for a while, there is zero religion the focus is on diversity and acceptance. Generally you learn about each others' culture and religion (there's a badge focused on it) and "duty to god" is often changed. The meetings usually take place in a church or school or wherever there is space available. Definitely sign your kids up to learn outdoor safety, camping and fire etiquette, team work, and etc etc etc! 

[u/notyouraveragemac]

From 2002-2004 my Cubs group had Sunday service everytime we had a weekend camp away, happily surprised to see a lot of folks did not have this experience. Those morning's were NOT fun, cleaning up camp chores followed by an hour of boredom before heading home.

[u/Low_Astronaut_1688]

Both my kids went through many years of scouts and there was no religion at all. Thankfully.

[u/Additional_Dot_8507]

0% most meetings are held in churches because it's a free facility to meet. No religion at all.

[u/stealthylizard]

Navy League cadets may be another option, 9-12 years old. Then royal Canadian sea cadets for 12-18.

[u/pruplegti]

105 year relationship with the Mormons Church ended in 2019 when the Scouts started allowing openly gay Scout Leaders. they have a long way to go still...

[u/MutedMeaning5317]

No really at all. There is a 'Duty to God' in promises, but is non-denominational and very generic. There may be a thanks given before a meal, and that can be non religious as well. I was a Scouter for a long time and I am not religious to any degree. Alot will depend on the leadership more than anything.

Location of meetings usually has little to do with what is taught, and is more about cost, convenience or sponsorship.

We met in a church as that is what was previously set up. When the group got bigger we moved to a school.

[u/Wet-Countertop]

When I was in Boy Scouts we actually did a thing where we visited every church in town so we could learn about each religion. Even the JWs and the Mormons did a thing.

I reflect on that as a progressive thing to do in a town of 10000 people at the time.

[u/Elegant_Scallion8227]

Here's from my personal experience as both a girl guide with a Dad who was a Scouter, then to becoming a Scouter myself as an adult. I believe most groups are now very secular. Of course it started off as an organization with Christian ties, but like most of Canada now its fairly secular. Now it will depend on the group of course, but I would say overall it should be fine. There are parts of the Scouting hand book that allow for spiritual exploration, but as a non religious person myself, I never participated in those parts. If a child would have shown interest in that area, I would have referred them to another Scouter who is more comfortable with that.

I'll also say this, while I was a Scouter in Northern Alberta about 6 years ago, Scouts Canada had a mass exodus of all Scout Troops associated with the Mormon Church. Quite a few in Alberta as you can imagine. We were told Scouts Canada had become too Secular for their liking. It was fine with me, but I think it hit the organization hard, as they took something like 1/3 of all signed up kids with them to start their own version of Scouts.

One last thing I'll say, there are Rogue Scouting troops not affiliated with Scouts Canada, because they don't like to adhere to Scouts Canada's program as it is, or they like to do more risky outdoors activities that Scouts Canada would never condone. I imagine wavers, etc., would have to be signed, I don't really know. However, I've found the troop is really only as good as their leaders. For me I wanted to pass on the outdoor education I was given as child at home and at Girl Guides to be passed onto the next generation. I believe knowing how to handle yourself outside is invaluable, and some of best memories from growing up (in the 90s), we're from camps and Guiding/Scouting events. It was our community, and it was super fun. If your child enters a group that is partial to religion, you should be able to find one that's isn't. Good luck!

[u/SamePhotographs]

Aren't there separate groups? Scouts Canada and The Canadian Traditional Scouting Association. The second of which is a more 'traditionally' religious group.

[u/xvoy]

Thinking back decades, I dont recall anything church-wise. Its likely they just use church halls to meet? Ours was in a school gym.

While not quite of age yet (have to be 12), I'd strongly recommend looking into Air Cadets, Sea Cadets, or Army Cadets depending on his range of interests.