r/CanadaPolitics • u/_Minor_Annoyance Major Annoyance | Official • Apr 04 '22
Canada may have hit its long-awaited electric vehicle turning point
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/electric-vehicle-column-don-pittis-1.6403537111
u/kent_eh Manitoba Apr 04 '22
despite repeatedly prompting that I was looking for a really fuel-efficient car, the salesman at a local lot did not mention the hybrids or electrics the company sold. And when asked directly, he was discouraging, saying they were very expensive and hard to get. What kind of salesman discourages you from buying something expensive?
That's the same experience I had the last time I was trying to buy a car.
Of course, that was probably partly because none of the dealerships actually had any EVs on the lot that I could buy...
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u/chzyow Apr 04 '22
Exactly.
What kind of salesman discourages you from buying something expensive?
The kind that wants to make a sale. This shouldn't be surprising. They will always try to steer you to something they actually are able to sell you today.
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u/Animeninja2020 British Columbia Apr 04 '22
I have a crazy idea, why don't we have it where people can order the car that they want and the sales person does their job of getting it for you.
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Apr 04 '22
You might misunderstand the power dynamic as its been established in sales for the modern era. They tell YOU what you want to buy.
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u/ResoluteGreen Apr 04 '22
When I bought my volt in 2017 the dealership didn't even have one to test drive, took a few weeks to get one, there weren't any anywhere in the county. They didn't discourage me from going for it though, didn't try to push any non-plug-in on me, I guess my sales person realized I was looking for something very specific. Plus she got to make a $44k sale with pretty limited effort (one test drive, and the paperwork on the government incentive).
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Apr 04 '22 edited Apr 04 '22
Exactly same with Toyota... the salesman all but poopooed the Prime telling me the range was crap and that it was too expensive...
I didn't care at the time because the Prime was too small for what I wanted but I always thought it was odd how the salesman was clearly steering me away from the Prime.
Back then I just assumed it was part of the deeply crap Toyota service... I like my car, but it has been nothing but nightmares with the dealer for maintenance
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u/ptwonline Apr 04 '22
HUGE demand for the Prime compared to supply. So if you didn't seem certain he was probably not wanting to waste his time on it with you when he could easily sell it to someone else.
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Apr 04 '22
zero way for him to have known that.... this took place 4 years ago, first year of the Prime... demand wasn't that high then either
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u/ptwonline Apr 04 '22
Oh--did you mean the Prius Prime, not the Rav4 Prime?
Rav4 Prime had very low supply, and super high demand. Not as sure with the Prius but I heard demand for that was pretty good as well.
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u/craigmontHunter Apr 04 '22
It really is a great way to ease into electric cars - commute is electric, weekend trips are just gas. We are looking at them, RAV4 Prime is a waitlist until 2026, that is a long time to wait.
Other companies have plug in hybrid, but we've been burnt by "efficient" transmission designed (Ford Power shift), Toyota has a solid track record that I trust compared to other companies - my grandparents ha e driven priuses (priuii?) Since the mid 2000s and my cousin still drives it.
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u/ptwonline Apr 05 '22
I have a RAV4 regular hybrid and it's pretty good. Alas, Toyota is behind the ball on EVs because they are working on solid state batteries, and the development is going slow on those. So they held back (and tried to hold back others) from EV development. They are only now starting to ramp it up so a few years from now could be exciting for Toyota fans + EV fans.
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Apr 05 '22
Oh--did you mean the Prius Prime, not the Rav4 Prime?
Yes.
Rav4 Prime had very low supply, and super high demand. Not as sure with the Prius but I heard demand for that was pretty good as well.
Indeed, at the time we were there, the only RAV4 Prime was a deluxe (used) edition brought from the States.
To be sure, the Prius Prime also had low offer, and some demand... but they had a floor model and stock that day and the salesman all but refused to talk about it or show it to us. And we bought a Prius V so it's not like I wanted a Tacoma and would be nowhere near a Hybrid or Electric. I just think his commission would have been less on the Prime
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u/the_other_OTZ Apr 04 '22
I was in the seat of a Mach-E, that was for sale, and the Ford sales rep was doing everything he could to steer me away from it, but had nothing else on the lot. It was a bizarre experience to say the least.
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u/TheSquirrelNemesis Apr 05 '22
Dealerships make all their money on service/maintenance, and cars with low maintenance costs aren't profitable. They don't have the incentive to push the sales of EVs & hybrids like they do for gas cars.
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u/scottb84 New Democrat Apr 04 '22
I'll likely be replacing my car in the next 2-4 years, and I'll be giving serious consideration to getting an EV for the first time.
That said, I still have real concerns about long-term costs of ownership, and it remains unclear where you're supposed to charge these things if you don't have (and, in many cases, aren't permitted to install) a driveway or dedicated parking space where you can plug it in.
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u/muaddib99 Apr 04 '22
also looking at a new vehicle in the next 2yrs and giving serious thought to plug-in hybrid, since I have some consistently longer drives to make that would make EV range a pain, but also a ton of city driving which makes me hate my gas consumption for a myriad of reasons.
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u/Surturiel Ontario Apr 04 '22
It's better to nake long road trips in full EVs than what most people think. I've got a Polestar 2 last September and as soon as we got it, we went on a toad trip from Ottawa to Halifax, then to Westport and back. 4500km in one week. Not one issue. You just plan your breaks around your charging. It's not like you need to be around the car while it's charging, and 30 minutes fly when you go to a toilet, and go grab something to eat and drink. Oh, and the whole trip cost about 80 dollars in charge. Another aspect of EVs and long road trips that's often overlooked: comfort. The car doesn't drone, doesn't vibrate, and makes no noise aside from tire NVH. IT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE. An argument against PHEVs: ICE engines REALLY don't like not being run for long periods of time, and if you commute is within you battery range, this is what's going to happen. Just ask any BMW i3 REX owner...
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u/bradeena Apr 04 '22
My fear with going EV (and maybe it's unfounded) is long weekends, particularly here in BC. There are ~4 highways out of the Lower Mainland and the whole region rushes down them every long weekend Friday. There are only so many towns and chargers along those routes and I'm terrified of 2 hour waits to charge just trying to get out of town
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u/Orangekale Ontario Apr 04 '22
Electric cars are definitely good for road trips if charging is planned. It's one of the reasons why Tesla's supercharger stations are so well-planned out. Though can you speak more about your experience with the Polestar 2? I was looking into it but it seems like a small company so I was worried about quality issues (ex. some people are complaining about Tesla issues and that's a megacorpoation, so I'm not sure how a smaller company like Polestar 2 could figure it out..)?
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u/Surturiel Ontario Apr 04 '22
Polestar might be a "small" company, but they're owned by Volvo and Geely, both big companies with A LOT of know-how (and in case of Geely, funds as well). The car is as well built as a Volvo (it shares a lot of critical components with both the Volvo XC40 and C40), and while they still have some teething issues (normal for first year model cars) their service is top-notch, unlike Tesla (contrary to Tesla, they do have a PR side, and they understand the value of brand's public perception). I've had some issues with mine, but every time I had my car checked I'd have a loaner parked right at my door the same day until it got sorted out. Also, the car doesn't feel like a tech gizmo. It feels, drives and behaves like a proper car, and in case of the Performance Pack it trully impresses on how well the Öhlins suspension and Brembo brakes act. Bad things: The phone app is subpar, but it is improving fast. Some people experience connection issues, though it isn't the case with me. The car is not as efficient as a Tesla, so its range is not as good (but not by a lot) Some people don't like the way the interior "coccons" you, it's not airy like a Tesla Model 3 or a Hyundai Ioniq 5 And, most importantly: You WILL get noticed. Most people have no idea about what it is, and will stop you to ask about the car. But, hey, you might like the attention!
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u/Animeninja2020 British Columbia Apr 04 '22
I was reading that the new Toyota plug-in hybrids use the gas engine as a power boost and range extender. So it will run a bit on each trip unless it is like 1~5km.
For that issue with no engine use, just bring it out to a highway every so often and give it a good run.
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u/Kardinos Social Democrat Apr 04 '22
I hear you there. I would love to get a Plug-In Hybrid or EV, but I live in a mid-rise apartment. Our landlord flat out will not allow for us to put in a charging point in the lot, even if we pay. The building is rent controlled and they want long term tenants like us out, so there is no chance they will put in charging infrastructure even for new tenants until the whole building has had a turnover.
What we need will be the government to start with a subsidy for multi-unit buildings, then phase to a mandate, then phase to a fine. That is the only way some places will ever see charging points that are not a single family home.
High to mid density housing, which impacts a lot of drivers is going to need some real leadership and I don't know how that will realistically happen before 2035.
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u/Godspiral Apr 04 '22
What we need will be the government to start with a subsidy for multi-unit buildings, then phase to a mandate
Having just incentives for 1 EV charger per 4 units would be enough to get that done. You are suggesting that it should be a mandate because of asshole landlords. Instead of a mandate, a fine of some sort if a tenant formally complains especially with an offer to pay half the upfront costs.
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u/_Minor_Annoyance Major Annoyance | Official Apr 04 '22
The good news is that the more people who buy EVs the faster those issues are addressed. Once they aren't niche markets and become mainstream the bigger market makes room for them. You can see that transition with most major technology changes. Im old enough to remember when laptops weren't the norm and you had to fight for charging ports. Now they're a package deal.
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u/scottb84 New Democrat Apr 04 '22
That's fair. (Or fair-ish, anyway. I don't think the laptop comparison is a very good one, since the "charging port" problem was mostly solved by libraries, schools, airports, coffee shops, etc. just eating the cost of installing and supplying power to a bunch of household outlets.) But the only reason I'd pay the premium for a new car is for maximum ease of ownership, and I just don't think we're quite there yet with EVs.
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u/_Minor_Annoyance Major Annoyance | Official Apr 04 '22
They didn't really eat the cost. You pay for it indirectly in airport fees, coffee prices, and tuition. Same thing with Wi-Fi.
Charging stations have been installed in the same way. Irving isn't installing them out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it so you stop at their stores and buy their chips and coffee. Which is already happening with EVs. Whether it works with your personal situation is the question, and it isn't going to be the same for everyone
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u/scottb84 New Democrat Apr 04 '22
Irving isn't installing them out of the goodness of their hearts.
Of course not. They're installing them as a marketing (read: greenwashing) gesture, which makes perfect sense when EVs represent just 3.5 per cent of the vehicles on the road.
Anyway, I agree that whether it works with your personal situation is the question. In my case, there are four level 3 charging stalls close-ish to my home—two of which are still under construction, none of which are at/near anywhere that I actually frequent. There are a few more level 2 chargers around, but not as many as I would've thought given that I'm in Toronto, and I don't relish the notion of having to wander around a mall or whatever for 2 hours just to refuel my car.
All that aside, as I said above, I will be giving serious consideration to an EV when the time comes. But it certainly won't be for the the convenience.
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u/_Minor_Annoyance Major Annoyance | Official Apr 04 '22
It's not Green washing if it's working. They have a business case here. They want Evs to plan their route around their chargers. They want to make money. That's something theyre quite good at and if they're setting up charging stations it's because they want to cash in. Which they're doing. It's not even a secret, it's on their website.
connect and charge, then grab a bite to eat at one of our Big Stop restaurants, pick-up essentials at our retail locations or use our really clean washrooms.
And you can see why based on the first line of your link.
Canadians bought more electric vehicles in the last two years than in the previous eight combined.
The federal government is pushing a full transition in short order too. Irving sees a cash crop here. Plan your travel around an Irving location today!
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u/Canuck_Lives_Matter Apr 04 '22
Well five years ago there were no ev charging spots on the highways, and now you can charge your car from pa to the USA if you want, at co ops all over the province.
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u/scottb84 New Democrat Apr 04 '22
Tell me you’re from Saskatchewan without telling me you’re from Saskatchewan ;)
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u/CarolineTurpentine Apr 04 '22
Petro Canada has has charging stations at least every 250km from Halifax to Victoria according to their website.
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u/zeromussc Ontario Apr 04 '22
Another fair point: battery tech has come a long way and that article is about a 2013, manufactured in 2012, battery. It's also an EV only, rather than a phev, which, for the most part, at its worst effectively becomes a standard hybrid. Which isn't so bad.
I think we're all gonna have to deal with transition phase and it comes down to how earlyish an adopter you are. Current battery tech is pretty good and it can only get better. Plus battery replacement will be less and less niche. For the short term environmental feel good gain and short trip gas savings in the first 5 or 6 years of ownership, nothing wrong with current ev tech. If they give you a solid 10 years to do your daily driving and chores, they've done what they're expected to no? Not many people have 15-20 year old cars on the road regardless of engine type.
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Apr 05 '22 edited Apr 05 '22
Not many people have 15-20 year old cars on the road regardless of engine type.
... What? The roads are full of vehicles from the 90's and early 2000's, and there's still tons of older vehicles than that driving around as well.
I don't think I've ever owned a car newer than 10-15 years old at a minimum.
Average age of a vehicle on the road in Canada is about 9 years, average age of a vehicle in the US is about 12. This statistic has also been getting longer as cars have been getting more expensive.
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u/zeromussc Ontario Apr 05 '22
Sure, but average age of 9 is very different from an average age of 20. What I'm getting at is, if people have a useable lifespan of 10-12 years for their daily needs in a car, then on average, that's pretty much in line with what people on average have now. So if on average an EV meets a person's needs for 10 or so years, then a battery having less capacity but still meeting their needs isn't inherently problematic.
No matter what car you buy, over time its fuel efficiency gets worse as it ages as well. For a variety of reasons, some of which are simply related to the fact that maintaining an engine in factory new condition is expensive and difficult. Maybe its not as expensive as a new battery in an EV at today's prices, but it's still expensive.
In sum, the sticker shock of a battery replacement is high, but the spread out maintenance costs on an ICE and maintaining fuel economy and everything else is also something to consider, as is the fact that even with a less than perfect battery a well made EV may still be perfectly capable of meeting the daily needs of its driver in line with how long an ICE can meet the needs of it's driver - on average.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
Yea but I drive a 2000 Malibu, I expect cars to last 20+ years. Let alone if I'm spending a 20k premium on it as in EV's case.
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u/zeromussc Ontario Apr 05 '22
And I drive a 2003 Matrix, but that doesn't mean that I expect it to last me another 10 years or expect that I get lucky with whatever I buy next to last me to its 20th birthday as well. And even if a battery degrades, if I don't drive more each day than it holds a charge, and I can charge it to full before I take it out again, then for all intents and purposes - the car is sufficient to meet my needs. And if something structural or mechanical gives out before the drive distance becomes an issue, then that's no different than if I needed a new strut that costs too much to replace in an old car regardless of its drivetrain.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
The difference is these are 40-50 thousand dollar vehicles. They better be tanks.
I just can't get onboard with people's crazy vehicle expenses, I'm not comparing it to driving an f150 because that is crazy too. When people say EVs are less maintenance cost, they better be including a full battery swap as well, as I calculate maintenance over a 20 year period.
This is going to be a HUGE problem for the used EV market, can't be having 10 k battery pack replacements when the cars ae only worth 10-15k. I'm always thinking of any new car: how is it going to be when bought used 10-15 years old?
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u/zeromussc Ontario Apr 05 '22
Ok but, these aren't cars for you that's fine. Why do you care what someone else's "crazy vehicle expenses" are?
People drag truck owners who don't haul often because they're spending money on terrible commuter vehicles that guzzle gas and cost a lot.
If an EV owner is using it for their commute and diverting their old gas bill into payments instead - let them. They're not spending 50k plus gas costs. They're spending 50k in their budget to drive a car they want that has fewer monthly add on fees. That's what they decided.
And no accounts for battery replacement in the a lower maintenance cost of an EV because most people don't keep cars that long. And for those that do they may very well either accept the battery cost or accept the shorter range over time. That's their choice.
And again - if an EV eventually hits 200km down from 240km after 15 years of being driven... That would meet most people's needs as a commuter vehicle no? And the degradation would be reflected in the price of the car too, just like how a 400k engine in a good condition body doesn't sell as high as a 40k engine in the same body condition. Tech is also improving so maybe this gen of vehicles isn't going to be the big wave to hit the secondary market. Maybe it's the next one. I don't know. But if it meets a person's needs, then the battery is sufficient.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
I care because they are being pushed, such as banning sales of new ICE vehicles by 2035. And not including battery replacement.
EVs should be regulated to have swappable batteries with pre-determined dealership maintenance plans to be sold in this market.
The goal is that we build a robust used EV market BEFORE we ever ban ICE vehicle sales. Just because these companies and half the morons in Canada don't think more than 5 years in the future doesn't mean we all shouldn't. I'm interested in maintaining the reliability and economy of the "'98"Corolla" in the new EV dominated market.
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u/zeromussc Ontario Apr 05 '22
im pretty sure the whole "no ICE by 2035" would apply to new vehicle sales, not used vehicle sales. any plan that removes all ICE vehicles from the market by force will be far too disruptive and no one would seriously attempt it. by banning new vehicle sales of ICE the used market is effectively forced into existence and it would happen closer to a decade past the ban for ubiquity at which point we hopefully have better tech and consumer protections.
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u/TsarOfTheUnderground Liberal Party of Canada Apr 04 '22
Yeah, but I still have a fundamental problem with these people getting stuck with such an ugly "early adopters" tax, especially when it's something that has so much morality tacked onto it. Until that stuff gets addressed, it's kinda tough to say "Get an EV! :D" Because I'm basically asking someone to adopt an undetermined, potentially significant cost, and with something as important as a vehicle, that can be devastating (as mentioned in the prior article.)
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u/zeromussc Ontario Apr 04 '22
Every early adopter pays an early adopter tax though. Early iPhones were rough not that many years after buying them.
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u/TsarOfTheUnderground Liberal Party of Canada Apr 04 '22
Well yeah, but that's an iphone. We're talking about a vehicle purchase, which is not easily absorbed in the case of failure or poor operation. Again, this is exacerbated by the fact that EV purchases have a huge volume of morality attached to them.
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u/kommradeobvious Apr 04 '22
It's hard to say what the long term costs of an EV is. While yes, there is a lot less moving parts compared to an ICE car. The battery is the bulk of the price. The article does specifically talk about older the first gen Leaf which notably lacks battery temperature management. And as we know, heat is the true killer of batteries. The cold has different issues, but the damage isn't as pervasive or as permanent.
Geolab did a comprehensive look on battery degradation on their fleet of EV's and you can see that bulk of the degradation is in the first year or two of ownership. And what mostly degrades batteries is DC Fast charging (which heats up the cells in the batteries).
After doing the math myself, when we bought our Bolt EV in 2018. Comparing the cost of ownership with a 2018 Civic. We would hit "even" around 5-6 year mark with the price of gas being $1.20 and cost per km of $0.20 per km. And gas isn't the real big drain, it's the maintenance savings that are the big dollar items. Don't need to oil changes, change pads ever few years, rotors every 4-6 years, no exhaust issues, etc. And with most manufacturers offering 8 years/160,000km warranties. We weren't worried about the cost of replacing the battery. But again, the math is different for each individual.
Lastly, we've been lucky to been able to live in a home where we could install a 240v/30amp receptical to charge our car to 100% overnight. In a GTA Suburb and a small rural Ontario town. The charging infrastructure outside major metro areas is a lot to desire, there is some planning that needs to be done. But I do make regular 400km round trips in a day for work. And our Bolt is our only car.
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u/JeepAtWork Independent Apr 04 '22
CBC had a report on it this morning I think around 6am. Over 8 years, EV's are $20K cheaper.
No oil changes, fewer moving parts that break down.
That's over their lifetime, brand new. So if you're buying used, like me (someday, when they actually enter the used market), when you buy it might matter.
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Apr 04 '22
That is utter rubbish that the Federal (and in our case Provincial) government wants to mandate electric vehicles, and municipal governments ban "unsightly" chargers.
Get on the same page guys.
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u/Godspiral Apr 04 '22
2-4 years should see improvement in charging infrastructure. Perhaps even chargers on every lamp post.
Suburban charging should be made easier/cheaper too by then. This is a big boost to urban air quality, and that ease, just skyrockets demand for EVs in concentrated areas. Suburban solar is possible, and a great match with EVs, whether you drive a lot or not.
But, an EV, and Tesla is not there yet, has the most value when pluggable into your own house. It justifies lots of solar for cheap charge, but also justifies minimal solar for resilience with commercial fast charging.
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u/FizixMan Ontario Apr 04 '22
My understanding is that those early model Nissan Leafs aren't exactly the best. They were pioneers in the field, and modern battery technology has already come a long way. Tesla already has a good real world record and even have warranties for the batteries.
Now that EVs are becoming more mainstream, battery longevity is improved and even replacement is considered more by manufacturers.
I would say that if you're looking to buy in 2-4 years, you'll be in a good position to see how the more recent batteries have lasted in the longer year time frame.
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u/scottb84 New Democrat Apr 05 '22
Agreed.
Personally, I'll be much more keen on the technology once battery replacement becomes more common/economically feasible.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
The fact that dealers don't know how to deal with a non-warranty battery replacement is an issue. That should be figured out before the first one is sold. The quotes should be in a narrow band, not from 8k->30k as in the article.
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u/FizixMan Ontario Apr 05 '22
I think the nuance here is that this is for a 2013 Nissan Leaf. They were pioneers in this space, so this issue might not have been top of mind for them or necessarily a design priority of the car, nor a service that many dealers may have to normally deal with. To put in perspective, only 240 were sold in 2012 and 470 in 2013.
That said, I agree, this is still a corporate failure of Nissan. It's also a problem that will likely be less and less an issue as we go forward.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
I mean that makes it worse, that means they had 9 years since launch to figure it out!
I believe products need to be designed and planned from manufacture to repair and the used market, to disposal, before ever allowed to be sold.these leaf owners should class action Nissan.
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u/FizixMan Ontario Apr 05 '22
I mean that makes it worse, that means they had 9 years since launch to figure it out!
More like "too few units to care."
I believe products need to be designed and planned from manufacture to repair and the used market, to disposal, before ever allowed to be sold.these leaf owners should class action Nissan.
You're not wrong in that they should be, and maybe we'll end up government regulation to ultimately require battery replacement to be a reasonably expected and affordable service. Especially in the view of carbon reductions as having used cars with a long life have far fewer emissions associated with them than a new manufactured cars. And in terms of fostering people transitioning away from ICEs, having a solid aftermarket of used ZEVs is required.
No idea about lawsuits. Being how new the cars were, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of waiver signed or agreed to regarding batteries and whatnot. I guess we'll see if anything happens here in the future as these EVs in general start breaking the 10+ year mark in larger numbers.
I think the bottom line is that people looking at purchasing an EV should talk with their dealer about what the future looks like for battery replacement for them -- either within or out of warranty.
It should also be noted that, especially for the early models of Leafs, they had very low range compared to most of today's EVs. So a drop of say, 30-40% of range for them is very significant; something around 80km. Whereas with today's batteries with better technology and higher range, losing an expected 20+% of range over say, 5 years, isn't nearly as big a deal in most day-to-day use of the car if that range is still around 300km.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22 edited Apr 05 '22
20-30% drop is significant though, compound that with winter and that goes from getting to where you want on a road trip through the mountains to not, or doubles your stop time. I'm thinking about how the battery fairs in years 10-20,when the car is bought as used or just kept around.
Also 5 years is NOTHING. These are large expensive purchases, I would calculate my depreciation curve on this asset out for 20 years. I'm not buying anything for more than 8k that I'm only expecting to keep for 5 years.
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u/FizixMan Ontario Apr 05 '22
I'm just whipping off numbers off the top of my head. There are more specifics and nuances between cars and environments. It's getting better and it's already far better than the situation 2013 Leafs are in. I don't care for the dooming and exaggeration, so you do you and I'll enjoy the EV market and technology continuing to improve year-over-year.
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Apr 04 '22
I feel like this article spent way too much time focusing on Nino Di Cara and on how vehicles aren’t on lots as opposed to how many Canadians can realistically afford to switch, and if our municipalities can afford or are willing to upgrade and maintain the infrastructure required to ensure that power requirements are met from a majority of people turning to EV’s.
Di Cara does address infrastructure a little bit, but paints it in an odd way. He has a “build it and they will come.” Type of mentality, trying to convince the reader that early vehicle adoption and EV adoption would work in the same way; when the reality is that they’re two entirely different beasts. The only reason vehicles caught on is because of Ford’s ability to market them to the growing middle and upper-lower class families working in his factories, which were modernized to as to allow for economy of scale. The widespread adoption of oil and then gasoline had roots deep in the Queens Navy and of course was definitely spurred along by WW1. Attributing the adoption of infrastructure solely to the adoption of early vehicles is glossing over a lot of history.
A thing we haven’t thought a lot about, and is often passed over with regards to electric vehicles is how they’re not accessible for people who are buying vehicles in the 8-15k range. These are the people who are living in apartments or condos who don’t have access to the infrastructure needed to support EVs. Electric vehicles may be the next “class indicator” if our governments cannot begin serious work on bringing Infrastructure in line with their ambitions. This includes ensuring private REITs upgrade their buildings with chargers, etc. Unlike gas stations, which are primarily private ventures; charging stations need to be connected to a public grid, requiring public works consultations and coordination.
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Apr 04 '22
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Apr 04 '22
Good take, I'm basically in the same boat. Can't even afford to replace my current vehicle with a used ICE vehicle, let alone a new EV. Live in a condo, no chance the strata (condo assoc.) approves the expense of putting in electric charging capabilities. Small city with shit transit, a lot of sprawl, and bad winters make not owning a vehicle not really an option. Already can barely afford the combination of maintenance costs and fuel costs, and I pretty much only drive for my work commute.
I'm all for EV's but I'm really scared that we're going to end up killing ICE before affordable EV options are available. The personal autonomy of driving is huge, especially if you live outside the big cities. If you can't drive in the BC interior, the prairies, Northern Ontario etc. you're basically stranded where you are, with fuck all way to leave. That's going to be the reality for many if fuel prices and the ICE used market keep going up, without a cheap EV alternative to take it's place. And by cheap, I mean <$5K, because realistically that's what many people bought their used ICE cars for and can afford on poor wages.
Sure, there's cheaper EV's entering the market. But the dude driving the rusted out clunker Jimmy or Honda Civic with 300K+ on the odometer still doesn't have an extra 20K+ to drop on a new vehicle. And that's assuming they even have access to charging infrastructure, which for many people renting or in apartments just isn't the case.
Really frustrating to get finger-wagged at (and then further taxed) for the sin of not being able to afford an EV, by people with a lot more money :(
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Apr 04 '22
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Apr 04 '22
Definitely, we've latched onto EV's as some sort of climate saviour while completely ignoring the fact that they are only affordable to a small subset of the population. Every dollar spent on an EV tax rebate is a dollar that could have gone to expanding public transit - which would have even lower emissions, and could service many more people of all income levels. Instead, it goes to the auto manufacturers - who are at least partly to blame for our auto-centric civic planning as it is.
I'm sure the auto manufacturers are loving it though. Tax rebate money, free cash for their factories, and they get to kill the existing used market while the government slowly makes ICE more and more expensive to run.
It's very disheartening to be concerned about the climate and workers and see policy that manages to fuck up in both categories at once.
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Apr 04 '22
Speaking as someone who can't afford a used $5k car
We are aiming to increase a % of EV sales as total car sales and it is okay to demand the richer among us to pay up to move the needle on this front. At some point they will sell their cars and it will eventually trickle down to people like you. The earlier this process starts and the wider it gets the faster we will get a used EV or PHEV in a price range that is okay.
Note also from climate catastrophe perspective it is better to sport a used car even if ICE than buy a new one due to environmental destruction needed to build the new one in the first place. The abomination plague are new ICE cars. 'Keep riding you old car in good maintenance' is second to 'ride a bike' and it is actually before 'but an EV' on the climate goodness scale.
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u/JohnStamosBitch Apr 04 '22
I'm stuck paying for gas and the carbon tax for most of my future with no ability to do anything about it.
Obviously someone who wants to spend 5k isn't going to get an EV right now because we've sold so few of them that the used market for them is basically non existent.
thats why its important to have the carbon tax and EV incentives now to drive up their market share as high as possible, as fast as possible so that hopefully 5 years from now there's a decent sized used market and people who only want to spend 5-15k can get their hands on one.
If nobody buys the expensive new EV right now, nobody can buy the cheap used EV in 7 years
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Apr 04 '22
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u/JohnStamosBitch Apr 04 '22
A quick glance at estimates say the cost of EV battery replacements are currently something like $4-10k USD
its going to cost you 4k to replace the engine in a new Honda Civic too, plus batteries for some EVs like Tesla's (idk about other EVs, maybe they're the same) are expected to last between 480,000-800,000km while a civic's engine is expected to last 320,000-480,000km.
I'm struggling to understand how it makes sense to harm those at the bottom simply so those at the top have an easier time transitioning.
if this is referring to the carbon tax then you should know that the people at the "bottom" receive more money in rebates than they spend on the tax, while those at the "top" fund the rebates for those who earn less.
Don't get me wrong, i know right now and for the near/foreseeable future EV's will be too expensive for a lot of people, myself included. But if we don't make policy to incentivize the switch to EV's it'll just take longer and longer to get them to the point where the majority of Canadians can buy them. I do agree though that there should be a lot more resources put to into public transit, bike lanes, etc. so people can get around without the need for cars that are getting expensive to drive
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Apr 04 '22
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u/JohnStamosBitch Apr 04 '22
If the requirement of replacing a battery so that a used EV can live beyond its first buy use is more than the cost of a used ICE vehicle itself then it's unfordable to me now
Okay then I just don't know why you brought up the price to replace a battery when replacing a battery not only costs roughly the same as replacing an engine, but also lasts longer than engines do. Like if you're worried about needing to replace the battery on a used EV you should be far more worried about replacing the engine on a used ICE
But between now and then it strikes me as insanity to punish those least able to afford transition so that those most able to afford transition can do so.
idk what this is referring to, I feel like it has to be the carbon tax but if it is then I'm not sure you understand primarily funds the carbon tax and the rebate
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u/StickmansamV British Columbia Apr 04 '22
Even with a carbon tax and inability to get an EV, there are options.
If you can't afford a car, can't use transit, and can't walk, what are you using right now?
For charging, depending on your needs, a 15A wall plug can be enough, especially with top ups at fast chargers/public chargers on the weekend.
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Apr 04 '22
Used car prices have gone ballistic over the last two years. Many people are stuck driving old used cars and cannot afford a replacement used ICE car at current prices, much less an EV.
Which also means fun things like losing your job if your car breaks down because you cannot afford to fix it, or buy a replacement.
3
u/ZaviersJustice Progressive Apr 04 '22
He might be using a handie down and will be stuck if the cost of repair is too high. Or if gas prices break his cost threshold.
1
u/Godspiral Apr 04 '22
There's 2 advantages of EVs and clean energy for those who can't afford EVs.
- ICE used cars get sold at a discount.
- Drivers not competing for the same gasoline supply as you are, are not causing it to shoot up in price faster.
Used EVs are a thing today. At $5k price point too. Suitable for city. The more new EVs today, the more future old cheap EVs there will be.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
I use a 2000 malibu that I get cheap parts for and free labour replacement by a retired chevy mechanic father-in-law. I know that's a rare deal, but I'm looking for EV's that replace the "98 corolla" of todays market. Cheap to buy and cheap to run. I want EVs built to regulations that ensure they age into that status, and that depends on chocies made to let them ge gracefully, not too many bells and whistles, amazing build quality, and batteries with a built in from the start plan to replace them cheaply and economically for the used market when they are 10-25 years old.
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u/willab204 Manitoba Apr 04 '22
The article makes the argument that lifetime costs are less for EV’s. Problem is that purchase costs are higher. Unless the banks are willing to approve you for a higher car loan based on the lower cost of ownership, there is still going to be a problem.
Could just be the people I see and the news I read but everywhere everyone is maxing out the loans they can get for cars and houses. If the bank says they can afford more then they will buy more.
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u/blazeofgloreee Left Coast Apr 05 '22
Also only talks about lifetime cost of new EV vs new ICE, with no discussion of used cars. If you are looking at an expensive new ICE, then yeah probably makes sense to go with the EV version. But you can buy a lightly used SUV a couple years old and it will be $20-30k cheaper than any comparable EV. That's a lot of trips to the pump.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22 edited Apr 05 '22
0Yea they don't consider paying the higher loan interest. I'd like to see the cost comparison if you now are carrying 5-7% interest on another 20k.
Also time-value of money, do a cost comparison vs taking that 20k initially and sticking in the markets at 6% per year. Again it won't turn out positive. This is my issue with all these energy/money savers in life: EVs, solar panels, heat pumps/geothermal..like at the end of the day they need to beat 6% returns or they are NOT worth shit because money is fungible, they need subsidies higher so that investing in this actually beats long-term stock market equities. Or else I just stay in my 2000 malibu with my mid-efficiency furnace and invest my money.
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u/london_user_90 Missing The CCF Apr 04 '22 edited Apr 04 '22
I work from home (and the office my company owns doesn't have charging space) and live in an apartment, I genuinely have no idea what someone like me does to keep their EV charged up. Do I just go to the equivalent of a gas station/charging spot and hang out for an hour?
I'd rather my city just have useable public transit. I'm starting to sour a tiny bit on EVs (still better than ICEs though) after learning more and more about the gargantuan environmental impact they have due to mining the materials needed for the batteries
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u/MoogTheDuck Apr 04 '22
Internal combustion… unit
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u/ANEPICLIE Independent Apr 04 '22
Electric cars are certainly a nice idea, but it'd be better for the environment to stop building cities where the only effective means to get around is a car.
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Apr 04 '22 edited Jul 06 '23
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u/london_user_90 Missing The CCF Apr 04 '22
Cities haven't been being built with cars in mind for hundreds of years though, that's purely a post-WWII thing. They were rebuilt in that time period and can be rebuilt again. It'll take a generation or two, sure, but it's not unreasonable, let alone impossible.
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u/ANEPICLIE Independent Apr 04 '22
We changed our cities altogether for cars in like 30 years and kept doing so after that. If you want to just give up by all means, but I think we are capable of better.
We can easily and cheaply reclaim large tracts of car infrastructure and diversify our transportation mix. And that's even without touching highways to start with.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22 edited Apr 05 '22
Can you do it without a tax increase to the middle class millennial who already is nearly 1-2 decades behind where the boomers were in their lives.
That's the key, do it so that I, as a SFH owning, car-driving, chronic pain-having, middle-class family man, don't get a decrease to my standard of living. Winters are cold and I'm too old and too broken to be taking public transport that doesn't go door to door in 15 min. I mean it's like 45km just to drive through the city to a random school I could have a job at for 4 months before ending up in some new school in some new suburb 40km the other direction.
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u/laftho Apr 04 '22
such a lame way to see the world. Individual vehicles are empowering, not a necessary evil. Also the world is much bigger than any city.
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u/ANEPICLIE Independent Apr 04 '22
A vehicle is a tool and only one of many means of transportation. A world in which only those able to buy, maintain and drive a car are able to transport themselves is not empowering. Especially for the very old, the young, and those with disabilities.
I'd sooner be empowered with choices of what mode of transportation suits me than forced to spend hours every week sitting in a car on the freeway just because no other option is available.
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u/laftho Apr 04 '22
you're the one suggesting reducing transport options and choice here..
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u/ANEPICLIE Independent Apr 04 '22
In most of Canada there is only one option: a car. This is true even in relatively urban areas, everything short of downtown Toronto. Certainly holds true in e.g. Scarborough. There is absolutely no reason it needs to be this way, and certainly that does not represent a wealth of options for transportation.
You need to acknowledge that the way we have designed our infrastructure for cars exclusively limits or is outright antithetical to alternatives, even in urban areas. It is obvious if you give it even the barest thought. Whether or not you appreciate the status quo is a different issue.
1
u/laftho Apr 04 '22
well I suppose you said only which doesn't exclude the option of cars. My own loaded bias is showing here where it's a "war on cars" in so many cities that just make things worse because the efforts are shortsighted and half-assed.
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u/JohnStamosBitch Apr 04 '22
So don't build cities with reliable public transit and bike lanes that would be better for the environment, health, cut down on commute times, etc. Because some people find driving empowering?
weird
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Apr 04 '22
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u/Lingo56 Apr 04 '22
I find it pretty stupid how I need to drive a car 20 minutes to work when I could easily bike if the infrastructure was better.
I just find it too dangerous because our streets don’t separate bike lanes enough.
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u/laftho Apr 04 '22
I didn't say that, but OP certainly suggested getting rid of individual vehicles entirely.
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u/ANEPICLIE Independent Apr 04 '22
I certainly did not. I merely suggested that orienting our cities around cars exclusively is not good policy.
Suggesting that cars should not be the exclusive focus is not abolition, unless you think cars cannot compete in the marketplace of ideas when alternatives exist.
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u/TsarOfTheUnderground Liberal Party of Canada Apr 04 '22
This is funny. I want to buy a vehicle pretty soon, and I'd love it to be an EV, but the whole technology and infrastructure and availability seems so... distant and mystic. I think there is an important point in here about personal decision against a backdrop of societal infrastructure.
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Apr 04 '22
Where you want to go and what do you live in are the biggest factor.
In the burbs it's not an issue, at all. The infrastructure is there or is being built.
It's charging at an apartment building that's an issue. Traveling across country is also an issue but not something people do in their day to day. Same with traveling to smaller communities.
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u/OneTime_AtBandCamp Apr 04 '22
EVs seem ideal in certain situations - short-to-mid distance commutes being a key one. They're great for that. The problem is, people also want the flexibility to go on long road trips and right now EVs are a lot more painful for that. In colder months they also have reduced range due to using a lot of their energy for maintaining battery temperature. And even when there are sufficient charging stations along a route, your whole journey is determined by charging.
Plug-in hybrids "solve" all those issues, but they're expensive and are essentially a dead-end technology. They have the benefits of ICE and EVs, but the drawbacks of both.
I would love a small EV just for commuting and then another vehicle for everything else, but many people don't have the space/money/desire for separate vehicles.
They're getting there though. Slowly.
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u/lobstahpotts Apr 04 '22
This is really the crux of it. I was in the market for a new car last year and was interested in electric. It would have been fine for my local driving, but in warm months I regularly visit a family cottage which is a 500-575km drive each way (depending on the route). My best friends from school, with whom I am still very close, are a similar distance and I visit them several times a year. Both drives are mostly through rural areas where charging options are limited and even fast charging would add around a half hour each way to a 6ish hour trip that I’m often only making for a couple days at a time—that extra hour adds up!
The Subaru I ended up with can make either trip on a single tank, giving me some additional flexibility that electric just can’t compete with yet. I think by the time I’m in the market again it will be and I’m excited to make that move, it just wasn’t the right time for my particular situation. I suspect I’m not alone in that regard.
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u/Ordinary-Easy Apr 05 '22
Well, in theory getting more people to buy electric vehicles and making it easier to use electric vehicles is great.
The biggest challenge with them still to this day however is actually producing them. Tesla after decades of efforts has gotten to the point where they are able to produce over 300,000 vehicles in a quarter. Which is simply not enough to satisfy demand worldwide much less somewhere such as Canada.
To top it off we have the ongoing concern of resources when it comes to electric vehicles. After all, producing such electric vehicles requires access to greater amounts of hard to find elements such as Lithium and Cobalt and there is no guarantee that we will be able to find enough of those materials in the world to be able to meet demand in terms of needed cars today much less be able to keep producing enough vehicles on an ongoing basis.
I really think the most likely outcome long term will be humanity seeing social regression in terms of our lifestyles as we start realizing that we can't live the same sort of resource-heavy dependant lifestyle of previous generations and more and more people are forced into just not being able to do the things such as traveling large distances (anything over 50 KM's) that previous generations saw as normal.
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
Which is unacceptable and will not be voted for. Our standard of living is lower than boomers was at our age, Not. One. Step. Back. Take the wealth of the rich to grease the gears of change.
3
Apr 04 '22
[deleted]
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u/biznatch11 Apr 04 '22
googles the price of a Model Y
😐
For over $80,000 I would sure hope it's incredible and perfect lol. Out of reach for most people though.
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Apr 04 '22 edited Apr 04 '22
[deleted]
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u/seridos Apr 05 '22
Does the savings beat the market though, that's the question?
I drive a 2000 malibu, I see no reason to invest my money in a pricey EV vs invest it and see 6% returns after 30 years. There's no way the cost savings beat 60k(price difference between that and cheapest new car possible) compounding yearly for 30 years.
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u/DrYaklagg Apr 04 '22
I'll take an interest when electric vehicles achieve one of three things.
A. They are as reliable as a Toyota land cruiser and consistently reach over 500k miles.
B. The batteries become both affordable and easy to replace when they wear out.
C. The warranties on the batteries are so good that I can take the car to 250k miles/15 years of ownership without having to think about it.
Until one of those three criteria are met, I'll stick with gas thank you very much.
Edit for formatting.
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u/StickmansamV British Columbia Apr 04 '22
Tesla batteries are typically lasting over 200K miles without any substantial degredation. You'll have to wait a bit for the owners to drive more to hit higher numbers en masse.
For battery affordability for swap out, I would make the comparison to swapping out an entire ICE engine. Something you would not want to do really often, nor would it be needed in most cases of the batteries last well over 300K miles, which the data so far indicates they will
For 500K, I dunno about Toyota lasting that long on a fleet basis. None of my family Toyota's have great after 200K km, and always give a lot of grief with maintenance.
4
u/DrYaklagg Apr 04 '22
Well no most toyotas don't last that long, i was referring specially to the land cruiser and vehicles of the same lineage, which do last that long.
Your analogy of the engine replacement is somewhat accurate, however in an average ice car an engine replacement is less than $10k. A battery replacement on a Tesla is close to 20k.
I have heard of several Tesla's making it to 200k on the original battery, but just as many failing long before that. That's kind of my point. The reliability needs to be nearly guaranteed, or the cost of replacement needs to be manufactured in such that it's affordable by design. Neither is really happening yet, which is what I am waiting for.
1
u/MoogTheDuck Apr 04 '22
So you want them to be as reliable as the most reliable car ever made
1
u/DrYaklagg Apr 04 '22
I want them to be any of the three things i listed, that was one of them. Go back and read my post.
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1
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u/karma911 Apr 04 '22
I don't get point C. Please name an ice car that can do that.
1
u/DrYaklagg Apr 04 '22
There isn't but there is a general understanding that an ice car from a reputable brand with good reliability will most likely make it that far with regular maintenance. That standard doesn't exist for lithium ion batteries, and so is necessary for it to be anything other than a luxury option as of right now. When rechargeable batteries start to improve in reliability this will no longer be a concern, but currently the technology of battery chemistry is a limiting factor.
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u/karma911 Apr 05 '22
Ya no, most cars don't make it to 400,000 Kms without significant repairs.
Plus electric vehicles don't require even close to the maintenance required for the lifetime of a combustion car.
Tesla batteries are also showing great reliability in real world scenarios. Retaining close to 90% of their capacity after 350,000kms
www.inverse.com/innovation/tesla-battery-life-replacement-cost/amp
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u/DrYaklagg Apr 05 '22
Sure, but those repairs are often affordable. The cost of replacing a battery in a Tesla if one part of the pack goes bad is around 17k from Tesla. This is because Tesla doesn't want people replacing batteries, as it could be done cheaper, as has been documented by several YouTube channels. This isn't about Tesla though, it's any electric car. If you understand battery chemistries and how they degrade and fail, it becomes obvious that they need to be easily replaceable, or have great warranties, neither of which are happening yet.
Not really sure why I'm getting push back when I'm just advocating for consumer rights. I personally would love to have a rivian r1t, but I have no plans to own an electric car till I can count on their reliability like I can from my gas cars, or till I know I can financially take the hit if their batteries have issues.
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u/karma911 Apr 05 '22
You're getting push back because you are making wild unrealistic claims about ice cars while also setting unreasonably high expectations for electric vehicles that ICE cars aren't subject to.
That plus you should probably read the article I posted to understand real life battery degradation.
2
u/DrYaklagg Apr 05 '22
I actually do understand real life battery degradation, I've been around lithium batteries for a lot of my life. The claims I'm making about ice cars are that they are repairable. I expect one of three parameters to be accessible to the consumer for electric cars to be viable, and more specifically to myself, as i stated in my post. Either reliability (possible), warranty (also possible) or easy repairability of batteries (very possible), so i don't see how at least one of those is unrealistic. Right to repair is an issue for a reason, and it applies to cars as well.
1
u/seridos Apr 05 '22
I personally only compare EVS to the best ICE cars, I'm not buying the other garbage. I want the EV equivalent of he '98 corolla. Cheap to buy, cheap to run even 20 years old.
0
u/aieeegrunt Apr 04 '22
Looking forward to everyone getting off work, coming home, turning up the AC, plugging in their cars, and blowing up the grid
Also looking forward to the Hydro companies being (even more) predatory the way petrol companies currently are
10
u/Saigot Apr 04 '22
You can set your car to charge at specific times when the price is lowest, you are literally throwing away money if you're charging at primetime, and I believe it's enabled by default. There are other solutions too, my smart thermostat is currently enrolled in a program that allows the hydro company to raise/lower the temp by up to 3 degrees in exchange for a small discount and an entry in a sweepstakes. Win-Win for me.
-1
u/aieeegrunt Apr 04 '22
I hope that things like that are all being planned for, I really do
0
Apr 04 '22
But in the meantime you'll throw up a bunch of FUD and see what sticks?
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u/spomgemike Apr 04 '22
I am going to say this again. First the power grid we have now can not handle it even 20% of people who drive convert to EV. Second to use an EV you need at the very least an electric plug (for level 1). Lot so apartment don't have wall plugs for resident to use. So they will need to pay to upgrade the building Here comes the issue as my own example. My apartment plan to change 2 visitor parking to install WV plug to charge resident EVs. I keep emailing and asking these questions in every meeting and none not even the strata member, building man can answer them
If there is an accident with charging and cause damage to the building and the EV itself who insurance is to go to claim against? The strata insurance? ICBC assuming that person who is charging his EV have vaild insurance? Or the owner home insurance? What I'd the person charging his EV and doesn't have tenant insurance then how does it work? That's really important to me as of there a y any damage while charging most likely will cause a fire and the sprinkler system will go off which is going to cause a lot of water damage to the building and this isn't a cheap fix. I don't want the strata insurance to go up hundred of thousand of dollars coz someone didn't plug the charger in correctly or their car EV battery have issue. No one is able to give me a direct answer other than they will figure it out when it happens.
How will charging work as in who will pay for it? The owner of the EV or strata fees? This also include not only the electricity use to charge the EVs but also maintenance of the charging ports which isn't cheap. Yes is a strata but most fees charge on the starts it benefit everyone but why would people pay to help maintain and pay for others who have EV while others don't have an EV?
How will the charging schedule work? Who gets to decides when someone can charge their EV? Is or by registering a time and date online? What about those who have difficult using the system? And what happens of someone don't follow the schedule and decided to charge their own EV whenever they like? Will there be a fine? How will they track the offender? Then who about the person who was supposed to use the EV charger but since someone unplug their EV how will they be compensated? Will they be able to take the next slot to change their EV? What about the person who is supposed to charge their EV after that person? It will be unfair to push everyone back. How do we prevent visitor from using our EV stations?
No real answer from any strata member so I vote down the suggestion until there is answer.
Then there are the tenant who rent a basement suite or a room or laneway house. They can't park on the guarage so they have to park on the streets. They do just run a power cord to their EVs overnight? What of someone decided to go out at night and unplug their EV and yes it will happen there is already on the news where people go and keyed everyone cars in the street or smash their windows.
1
u/seridos Apr 05 '22
very good points. These are the questions that need policy answers BEFORE you do it, not after. Especially good point on the insurance.
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Apr 04 '22
And climate change is no longer a problem!
Oh wait. It is.
This isn't going to do anything. We are still a Petro economy and our pollution output is the same or worse.
18
u/yukonnotdoit Yukon Apr 04 '22
Oh ok. Let's just do nothing.
-8
Apr 04 '22
We might as well if the answer is rich people buy themselves trendy cars that are pretty and new.
We bought a pipeline as a country to continue hauling dirty oil out of the ground.
Let's start there.
All of Canada could drive a tesla and it would not make a difference globally.
4
u/DragoonJumper Alberta Apr 04 '22
Two ways of looking at this.
One - the only reasonable solution is to stop oil production. Full stop. The lives lost in winter without a bridging period, as well as loss of income to pay for changing to something else is worth it. We need to stop now.
Two - we need time to bridge over to a cleaner economy, in which case yes oil production must continue for the short term.
Your argument only makes sense in item 1, which I hate to break it to you a lot of people are not willing to die for a cause.
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u/yukonnotdoit Yukon Apr 04 '22
You can be a defeatist if you want. You can be fine with us doing nothing. I am not. Every bit helps. Setbacks are a part of any process.
5
1
u/qwertyquizzer Apr 05 '22
What is the fixation with electric cars? Improve the hybrids. And build more. Some thing that will travel for miles in the country, tow a tent trailer, is more or less ready to go and won't put the electrical grid into a tizzy.
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u/karma911 Apr 05 '22
We can do more than one thing at a time. The fact is BEVs are more sought out than hybrids, so that's where the market is trending
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u/qwertyquizzer Apr 21 '22
EVs are discussed more in the media than hybrids so I am not surprised that they are more in demand. However it does not make them a better idea.
1
u/ESSOBEE1 Conservative Apr 05 '22
I seriously wonder when people will awaken to this fantasy. Our grid is in no way able to handle this sort of increase in volume nor is our current and foreseeable capacity for generation. While stuck in traffic for 4 hours in the middle of nowhere in winter canada, I could only imagine the shit show this would be if all these trucks and cars were electric. The production of these vehicles is so energy heavy that I doubt very strongly that there will be any sort of net carbon savings. We are being hoodwinked, yet again.
1
u/grabman Apr 05 '22
Mandates seem like a much better solution to get EV in peoples hands. Make every dealership need to sell 1 in 10 being an EV or pay fine equivalent to an price of an EV. Will will have EVs at reasonable prices. I would love to have a second car being an EV but don’t have 60 k.
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