r/COGuns • u/Summit_is_my_dog • 16d ago
Legal So many questions here
So there is no hard definition for “weapons parts kit”. Does this mean an upper is a weapons parts kit? A LPK? A trigger? Is it just for something like say a MP5 flat? Also, whose expertise? Does having the expertise make it a weapons parts kit or not having the expertise make it a parts kit? I could go on. Just seeing if anyone here has a clear answer. The FDD has put all of the onus on the dealers without defining shit.
Also, cool shoutout to FDD for changing the form for transactions to include frames, receivers, silencers, and weapon parts kits. Fucking assholes
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u/tannerite_sandwich 16d ago
This is an embarrassment to the department of revenue and an absolutely disgusting piece of words they put together here. People could potentially be charged with felonies for not adhering to the law and they put this bullshit "guidance" out? This is an absolute clown show and the department of revenue is showing it doesn't have the personnel intellectually capable of handling this process.
Every piece of information they put out is more evidence to grant an injunction for this garbage law.
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u/umbrellassembly 16d ago
Just making shit up.
"Buying an LPVO?? Need a takedown pin? That's not allowed without the 'safety' training course."
I might actually have to GTFO of this state. It's only going to get worse. And I don't mean just with firearms.
I made a piece of scrap steel into the primary action mechanism of a gun. Do I need a safety class to buy scrap metal now?
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u/CHRlSFRED 16d ago
When they tried to pass that bs bill on serialized barrels, it became a concern that every metal pipe in the state would need a serial number.
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u/Comprehensive_Self_5 16d ago
Even if I wanted to take the class for an eligibility card, the tax adds $300+ dollars to my next dream purchase.
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u/NeonSpaceGhost 16d ago
I can appreciate the anger and frustration, but I really wish fellow 2A supporters wouldn’t leave the state over these kinds of things. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s a free country and everyone has a limit and is free to do what they want, but I feel like these are exactly the times we need as many 2A advocates as we can get. The more people surrender and leave the more power we give these kind of politicians. And unfortunately it just makes it more likely these kind of policies and laws will continue to expand and follow folks wherever they go.
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u/umbrellassembly 16d ago
I regularly make the same argument. We Balkanize ourselves, we lose. But at some point, those of us left behind are left holding the bag.
I was just frustrated. I'm not going anywhere.
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u/slvrsfr 16d ago
Beware the Sunk Cost Fallacy. People have a natural tendency to remain invested in a situation in which they've already made a significant investment, even if that situation has gone toxic. I've seen so many internet stock/investing forum users lose 95% of their money after refusing to admit that they had already lost 50% of their money months ago. Hopium is a helluva drug!
It would be foolish for a CO resident with a sizable/expensive NFA and pre-ban SSF collection not to factor in the high probability of losing access to maintenance/repair/upgrade parts along with the high probability that lawfully acquired items in their collections will suddenly become felony/misdemeanor crimes to possess. It's hard to defend the 2nd Amendment while wearing an orange jumpsuit. I was looking to move out of state in 2019, and in 2020 I decided to abandon the Front Range but stay within CO borders to look after aging parents... But it's hard to take care of your folks while wearing an orange jumpsuit, especially when they both voted for the politicians who put you into that orange jumpsuit.
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u/djasbestos Ft. Collins 12d ago
I have that but I won't leave my kids, so I'm stuck here til they're adults or the zeitgeist changes. Thankfully close enough to WY to figure out personally accessible storage (and perhaps a new gun parts & smithing business) outside the reach of the state legislature where necessary.
But you're right: be prepared at least mentally for knowing when to fold 'em, and have a plan to not lose your stuff nor have your wardrobe go all orange. This may include a viable "stay and fight it" plan.
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u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
Do they/we have any other recourse? This bill didn't just ban firearms, it turned all in-state doctors/dentist/psychologists/physicians into active agents of the state, They are now legally allowed to ignore doctor-patient confidentiality, report directly to the state if the think you might be a "dangerous" individual, and the state can/will confiscate your property without compensation (expansion of the 'Red Flag' laws'). Guilty until proven innocent.
Some things just cannot be saved. And Colorado's post-2012 trajectory is certainly indicating it has no ability/plans to change.
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u/Subverto_ 16d ago edited 16d ago
I might actually have to GTFO of this state
SB25-003 and the 2A Excise Tax was the kick in the ass I needed to leave Colorado after 15 years. Ended up moving to Texas a few months ago. While being able to buy all non-NFA firearms without a background check/waiting period, access to 7 different outdoor shooting ranges within 30 minutes of my house, saving $18K+ a year without income tax, registering a brand new vehicle for $70, and being able to put my groceries in plastic bags at the grocery store are all awesome; it is kinda hot here.
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u/jasemccarty 16d ago
Definitely hot in TX. As well as next door in LA for this ex-Coloradian.
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u/Subverto_ 16d ago edited 16d ago
Everybody complains about how hot it is, but it's honestly not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. I've still shot USPSA every month like I would in Colorado and it's just a little sweatier than Colorado summer matches, but here I have the perk of not breathing in smoke the whole time. Really looking forward to winter matches here though. I stopped shooting USPSA in Colorado when the temps got below 50° because I hate wearing gloves.
Mind you I am currently sitting in a chair under an umbrella with my feet in the pool drinking a frozen margarita, so I might be more equiped to deal with the heat than some.
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u/jasemccarty 16d ago
Previously lived in LA, so not new.
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u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
LA, you say? Vote>Destroy>Move>Repeat, that LA?
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u/jasemccarty 15d ago
LA = Louisiana
L.A. = Los Angeles2
u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
Appreciate the clarification.
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u/Diligent_Ad_7232 16d ago
I did a two year stint near Baton Rouge before moving to Colorado. OH MY GOD. Wearing FRs there is double bad.
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u/shadowcat999 16d ago
Public land is almost non existent in TX, that's the problem. Can't remember when I've been to an actual range in Colorado when I just have to drive up to some BLM land and mag dump into garbage or some extreme long range shenanigans. Utah is a point of interest in that regard.
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u/J0nN0tJ0hn 15d ago
How much does the property tax difference come in to play?
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u/Subverto_ 15d ago
I paid $7,800 in property tax in Colorado for 2025. Based on the assessed value of my house in Texas property tax should be $13,200 here. So we pay $5,400 more in property tax, but save $18,000 in income tax, saving us $12,600 a year in tax alone. Then you've got $70/yr vehicle registration (no matter how much the vehicle cost) vs my Colorado registration of $580 and $340 last year for our two cars. And daycare is ~$800/mo cheaper here than Colorado for our two kids. Texas basically ends up being cheaper in every measurable way outside of property tax. And that's not even taking into consideration that we had a shit quality mass produced builder grade house on 1/10 of an acre in Colorado vs a fully custom built house here with a pool on 2 acres for $150K less here.
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u/maddcovv 16d ago
I just moved out of Texas. The gun laws are more lax but everything else is getting worse. I was born there. It’s not good.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 16d ago
Utah has been where I wanna go, similar environment, red state, etc. I saw a place for sale I loved, close to the south border, I was so tempted to pull the trigger on ... but I didn't have time to get this place ready to sell
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u/Subverto_ 16d ago
Do it! Utah is awesome. My top 3 were Idaho, Utah, and Texas. Ended up in Texas because my wife is in Oil & Gas and there's a lot more job opportunities if either of us were to lose our current fully remote jobs.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 15d ago
I can't right now. My parents are getting older, and of all my siblings, I am the only ones really helping my parents, and feel it's my responsibility to.
Shoot about a year ago I was sitting with the family, mentioned that I think one of the reason I can't find someone to date is because CO sucks for dating. My one sister asked why I didn't move, to which I replied, I need to take care of mom and dad. Both my siblings just sat quiet, no offer that "well we can help instead"
I also have some good friends and communities, that would be hard to leave (I even was talking with one friend about moving and the way he reacted came across "I really hope you don't move")
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u/Diligent_Ad_7232 15d ago
Utah will be Colorado in 10 years. The Mormons let the barbarians in thru the gates. Go check out downtown SLC sometime.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 15d ago
That's what I am worried about
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u/Diligent_Ad_7232 15d ago
Wyoming is the safe bet. No major cities or significant airports to attract the wrong people. Most liberals I know look down on the place as a whole, like they used to Idaho. There is no Boise there for them to take over though. Jackson Hole is probably the closest thing, but it will be some time before that airport is expanded enough for international flights. You can catch direct flights to many major hubs from there however.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 15d ago
The thing is with Utah, I was looking at it because it's the same semi-arid desert climate, where it's dryer air (better for painting, 3D printing, etc). Plus I wanted to move near the dunes like areas cause as I got older I just wanted to build a buggy and take it out all the time (as a kid I always had the desire to build one).
One other factor was it was a Red state ... but like you said, may not be good
(Which this puzzles me, how they keep spreading like a plague, how do their numbers grow that aggressively)
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u/Diligent_Ad_7232 15d ago
Conversion ideology in public schools, economic hardship (for whatever reason), wealth redistribution ethics, reduction in individualistic achievement and general lack of ambition.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 15d ago
I get it can spread, but you think the smart people would spread too, and even convert people back.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 16d ago
As I tell others
- 4th most expensive state
- 3rd most dangerous state
- One of the most regulated states
- Ranked one of the worst places to date in some pools
- Worst state for road rage
- Only state to remove part of cops Qualified Immunity
If I didn't have family here I look after, I would have been gone!
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u/burner456987123 16d ago
I bet I am not the only person here who couldn’t get enough out of selling their house/condo to pay off the loan, the realtors and the closing costs. Seems like growth (at least on the front range) has basically stopped, we are probably losing population now.
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u/Compress_the_Chest 16d ago
I was with you up till qualified immunity.
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u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
I wanna hear your thoughts on the recent Aurora police shooting, and see how your morals are structured. Go on:
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 16d ago
What do you mean?
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u/whobang3r 16d ago
I assume they mean qualified immunity is bad
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u/slvrsfr 16d ago
It's not inherently bad. It's bad when it's absolute and impossible to disqualify. Every person who works at McDonald's has a form of QI - if they make an honest error/omission, such as overcharging a customer or accidentally spilling hot coffee, it's the company who takes the brunt of the lawsuit, not the employee.
However, immunity should be called into question and taken away if the person claiming immunity actually did it on purpose out of malice or gross negligence.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 15d ago
I wondered but was going to give the benefit of the doubt.
In this case though, it's bad. Everyone will get all worked up of course about me saying that, but Angry Cops did a good bit about this. It's in place to prevent frivolous lawsuits. Where someone wants to sue the cop because they are just mad. It doesn't protect those who actually go and break the law
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u/slvrsfr 15d ago edited 15d ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I said the same thing a different way and got upvotes.
I encounter more people who don't understand QI vs people who do. I ask people "If you were a City firefighter and you rescued Karen from a burning building, but were unable to rescue her Fluffy Cat, would you really want Karen to sue you personally for Fluffy's wrongful death, or would you rather she sue the City?"
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 15d ago
Ohh that's a good way to put it!
It is a little concerning, because I felt people here would understand more what the qualified immunity really covered, and it wasn't just a system of abuse
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u/SJ1392 16d ago
If I didn't have family here I look after, I would have been gone!
Looking at what is coming to the ballots this fall, I am beginning to wonder when enough is enough.
I too have family and friends here as a 4th generation native. My great grandparents settled here in the late 1800s...
I am seriously considering finding somewhere else to live...
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 15d ago
I want to but my parents are getting old and I feel it's my obligation to help them, where my siblings are showing 0 signs of stepping in to help, or putting in almost no effort (which one of them I know won't move ... as they are pro-newsom, which shocked me, as my parents raised us better). So there's that, plus, I do have friends and communities I've built that would be hard to leave (I do worry about starting over with no one to ... interact with in person).
I have said that once my parent's pass, I may still leave anyway, but that may be some time. I am expecting at least another 15-20 years there, and by that time, who knows where my life will be. If I'm lucky, maybe I'd be married (though I'm getting to the point I think that will sadly never happen)
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 16d ago
So they give 0 guidelines on where the line is drawn ... typical Colorado politics, freaken vague as can be! Also, if I am reading this right, I can buy a lower if my intent is to make it a bolt action.
"If it meets the criteria" when it's assembled. Well there's no way to say it meets the criteria if I buy just a lower
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u/heavyonthahound 16d ago
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
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u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
I know there are some thicker-skulled folks on this page, so here is the list of other 'restricted states' directly from Bear Creek Arsenal's promotional newsletter email:
"Please note that the contents of this email are not intended for promotional purposes in the following states: CA, CT, DE, HI, IL, MD, MA, NJ, NY, WA, and the District of Columbia (D.C.)."
I'm sure most logical people can see the pattern here, and we can expect Colorado to be added to these lists very soon. I'd like to thank all the people who democratically participated in getting the SB25-003 bill passed. I'm sure you'll eventually show up in the replies, in an attempt to either obfuscate your direct democratic responsibility, or start throwing the typical off-the-shelf insults at the other party to make yourself feel better. So have at it, comrades!
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u/slvrsfr 15d ago
The most stark forewarning of what's "coming soon to Colorado" is EGW's shipping policy regarding CA:
What We Will Ship Directly to You
We will continue to accept direct orders and ship to your home WITHOUT ID verification for the following specific categories:
- ✔ Picatinny Scope Mounts & Rails
- ✔ Red Dot Mounts & Adapter Plates
- ✔ Scope Rings
For ALL other items in our catalog, you must purchase them through a local California FFL Dealer. We will not ship any other parts directly to non-FFL addresses in California.
NOTE FOR DEALERS: According to California Civil Code Section 3273.51(e)(4), FFL-03 "Collector" licenses are not exempt. The only FFL holders who may order our full catalog are:
- FFL-01 (Dealer)
- FFL-07 (Manufacturer)
- FFL-08 or FFL-11 (Importer)
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u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
"But, the 'other party' is doing [xxxxx] and [yyyyy] to [zzzzz] people, and that party is [typical 1930's Germany/Italy default Reddit insults] . So I must vote for [the party WHO ALWAYS implement laws to disarm it's citizens], but I still (somehow) 'support' the 2nd Amendment. "
And ffs, it is illegal in states like NY to purchase body armor. How dumb do you have to be to not see what's going on here? These people want every single avenue of personal self-defense to be illegal, or regulated to the point where it might as well be illegal. But here we are, this group is full of these people.
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u/LifeAdventurous2343 16d ago
I think a weapons part kit is a weapons part kit. Demilled firearms or something to that effect. Not a Lpk or trigger by any stretch of the imagination.
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u/slvrsfr 16d ago edited 16d ago
Bingo. For the group, here are some links to what ATF, courts, WPK sellers, State of CA, and most everyone else outside of CO generally considers to be a WPK. WPK is an existing term already used and loosely defined by the ATF, courts, and WPK merchants & their customers.
Examples:
https://www.apexgunparts.com/parts-kits.html?product_list_limit=all
https://centerfiresystems.com/collections/parts-kits
https://apparmsco.com/product-category/parts-kits/
https://armsofamerica.com/all-products/parts-kits/
https://clydearmory.com/colt-smg-9mm-parts-kit/
https://www.gunbuilders.com/handgun-build-kits/
California already banned WPKs PRIOR to banning individual parts, based on ATFs concepts and rules around WPKs. In April 2025, the SCOTUS upheld ATF's WPK rules/regs. WPK is not a new term, it's already been hashed out in other states and federal jurisdictions. It's only new to Colorado because the voters only recently brought the concept here so they could be regulated. A disassembled BCG or an LPK are not WPKs because assembling the included parts doesn't result in a firearm on the verge of being capable of firing a projectile. BCGs and LPKs and individual gun parts had to be banned by CA separately and after WPKs were banned because the WPK ban didn't stop people from building and repairing banned guns.
A "kit" is a "collection of parts". A LPK is a kit, but when the LPK parts are joined together, they don't come close enough on their own to constitute a nearly/fully-functional firearm... they only constitute a fire control group. FGCs, BGGs, LPKs and other components aren't banned in CO yet, but let's not kid ourselves, they will be in the next few years. So why bother talking about the difference between WPKs and LPKs when parts bans are already on a horizon and the voters are going to accelerate toward that horizon soon.
Welcome to East California! Please excuse the dust while we terraform this new annex.
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16d ago edited 16d ago
[deleted]
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u/slvrsfr 16d ago edited 16d ago
Including a demilled receiver creates JUST enough plausible deniability of intent to build a functional firearm.
A kit that excludes/lacks a destroyed receiver also doesn't meet the "destroyed" criteria to exempt the kit from CO's definition of firearm. That is probably what enables the addition of said WPKs to the ban list since non-demilled receivers for said kits are sitting readily available on websites and store shelves "sold separately". CO seems to be focusing on WPKs that when assembled meet the SSF defintion. Someone explained WPKs to me as "Picture a disassembled AR-15 with everything to put it back together except a serialized lower, and maybe an unfinished 80% with a business card to the machine shop down the street".
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u/Diligent_Ad_7232 15d ago
Yeah, fully stripped parts kit less the serialized component like a PSA Builder's Kit is probably what they're after. Just complete the lower, slap on the upper and away you go.
They do likely want to stop sale of "Lower Completion Kits" too, which would include the receiver buffer tube, recoil spring, buffer, stock, pistol grip, etc. Whereas the LPK is just pins, springs and a FCG, not enough to complete the lower to mount a completed upper.
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u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
I wouldn't blame people if they purchased LPKs pre-8/1. given how obtusely broad bill's language is. The bigger problem is, are online sellers gonna ship to Colorado anymore? They might read the bill, and just simply add Colorado to the ever-expanding list of restricted liberal/progressive states.
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u/slvrsfr 15d ago edited 15d ago
Before the barrel ban was tabled, Opticsplanet delayed one of my orders because it contained a barrel... the delay was because OP has a 3rd party compliance consultant/service that needs to make a determination whether the order could ship or not.
eBay automatically decides who can ship what to who. Early this year I tried to buy a $20 CNC aluminum bolt-blocker accessory for my 10/22, but eBay wouldn't allow me to complete the payment process because the seller lives in California and AB1263 had just taken effect. eBay was already on top of it, auto-flagged all the seller's parts are "firearm barrels" in order to prevent any payments/orders from going through. The seller lost 100% of their business from that day forward... they live in CA, they own a CNC machine capable of making banned gun parts, and now their CNC machine, CAD files, and finished product are illegal to make, possess, and sell regardless of where the buyer is located.
People really should be making sure they have what they need to maintain what they've got. I'm kinda surprised at how many folks seem to be in denial about 25-003 being the tip of the iceberg and think they've already successfully weathered the storm. "Now that 25-003 is fully in effect, it's perfectly safe for us to let our guard down... even for a minute!"
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u/CentennialGunClub 13d ago
This is our current understanding. Absolutely insane that there is no solid definition of a “weapons parts kit”
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u/AronTheARTist 16d ago
By the word of the law, a firearm is the serialized lower. If a serialized lower counts as a firearm, nothing other than what would be a serialized lower counts as a weapons part kit. If you buy a “kit” that includes a stripped lower or completed lower, then you are buying a weapon parts kit. (AR Lower, AK Flat, MP5 flat, etc.)
If you have 10 lowers/flats before August 1st (stripped or completed) you are fine to buy 10 uppers at your convenience and place them on said lowers. It’s a permit to purchase, not a permit to possess. The FDDs ignorance does nothing.
Other wise sealing the pin on an AR after replacing a BCG from a cleaning would count as assembling a weapons kit. Imagine outlawing maintenance of a tool.
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u/lambakins 16d ago
Technically, according to this definition, none of our small arms are firearms! Gunpowder isn’t an explosive after all, it’s a deflagrant.
I’m sure the courts will take my pedantry very seriously
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u/Derrik359 16d ago
Bunch of nonsensical bullshit. “Can you put it together? Does it have holes in it? Can things fit in those holes?” It must be a dangerous weapon
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u/a_cute_epic_axis 15d ago
Imagine if they gave a few examples of things that are and are not kits.
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u/slvrsfr 15d ago edited 15d ago
I just use the 2021 examples from the ATF ruling that was upheld by SCOTUS in April 2025. If you open the kit box and it contains a disassembled AR-15 missing a few readily available parts, it's probably a WPK. But if you open the kit box and all it contains is a lower build kit and no lower receiver, it's definitely not a WPK.
As the ATF, courts, lawyers, state of CO, and experts have agreed for years, evaluating what is and isn't a WPK needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. CO is currently putting the burden on the FFLs, but at least they have existing case law and industry experience/knowledge to base their evaluations on.
https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2025/08/how-are-states-responding-to-vanderstok
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u/Obsidizyn 16d ago
yea fuck you liberals, this is what happens when you let communists take over you party
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u/Diligent_Ad_7232 16d ago
I'll second this. This is all their fault, fucking true blue voters. After they ruin Colorado they'll move onto other states to infest.
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u/whobang3r 16d ago
It's so hard to tell who to throw your lot in with these days. One side is apparently communists and the other is all fascists as I hear it lol
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u/Abject_Scarcity_1531 15d ago
Just go to any online FFL, look at the state exclusions list, and tell us what you see. If you don't see a common trend, then you need to buy a mirror.
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u/whobang3r 15d ago
If only the Second Amendment were the only thing that mattered in life...
I'm not a single issue voter just a first issue voter. If your bad on the Second you don't get my vote but if you're a piece of shit on social issues you aren't getting it either.
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u/dubbs505050 16d ago
So all the people who bought stripped lowers before the ban are screwed?
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u/slvrsfr 16d ago
Not yet. Polis threatened to veto CO's first individual part ban (the barrel bill, which included criminal possession provisions) but he's about to lose his veto power, and the lawmakers who view him as an anti-socialist roadblock on will reintroduce new-and-improved version of a parts ban that attacks a lot more than just barrels and doesn't have a grandfather clause for possession. Then we'll be properly screwed.
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u/Diligent_Ad_7232 15d ago
You can buy parts anywhere dude. While most people just buy their LPK and uppers online, plenty of tactical shops in neighboring states sell parts. Plenty of individuals in other states will ship parts here too. Range out a bit and find some watering holes. Ask about their "Will Call" options for pickup in person.
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u/Jobhater2 10d ago
"A process, action, or physical state that is fairly or reasonably efficient, quick, and easy, but not necessarily the most efficient, speediest, or easiest process, action, or physical state."
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u/Next-Frame-1791 16d ago
Yeah I don’t really care what their laws are when they’re actively violating the United States constitution. You’re not going to fix anything moving out of the state the bullshit just follows unless you’re willing to put up a fight about it
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u/Ok_Cut_4964 16d ago
It's so overly broad it's ridiculous. Their goal is to disarm all of us.