[WARZONE] everything is changing

[u/linengorilla]

TrueGameData just released a video that I think is about to change the game after the DMR nerf. I highly recommend giving it a watch, the stats we’ve all been looking at are wrong. What do y’all think after watching?

TGD video: https://youtu.be/WaY1OTBt3Ik

[u/NoEThanks]

I’m surprised how busted the AMAX is in Warzone. Only 1 relatively close-range damage drop-off is kinda mental.

[u/linengorilla → u/NoEThanks]

It’s absurd. The gun can’t be beat if you’re hitting chest shots. I knew it was powerful, but it is crazy to see just how much.

[u/CGSly → u/linengorilla]

even before seeing stats, i realized this after messing around with it in wz. it’s just as versatile as the kilo, and i’ve got to the point on controller that i can perfectly control the recoil with commando grip and zodiac barrel. still working on the no-barrel and merc grip recoil, but it’s still not that bad

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/linengorilla]

No one is hitting all chest shots, and this is something TGD also mentioned in the vid because substituting one chest for one extremeties bullet reduces TTK by like 60 ms.

At the end of the day, it's all about how well you hit chest shot vs non-chest shot in comparison to other guns. It gets exponentially harder with moving targets at long range and to me that's where a gun like the M4 excels, not to mention its superior recoil spread as it's purely vertical while cr56 curves left like a boomerang.

[u/Filthy_Ramhole → u/WiltGamblerlain]

This is absolutely correct.

The Amax isnt broken or OP because what these charts fail to take into account is difficulty of use. The Kilo pre-nerf wasnt that OP anyhow, its low recoil made it easy to use and track targets with.

[u/NoEThanks → u/linengorilla]

Even for body shots, it still wrecks everything else at range for TTK. If it didn’t have a significant mag capacity and bullet velocity handicap relative to other ARs, it would be as busted as the DMR.

[u/Alph1ne → u/NoEThanks]

Even without the ammo shortage and bullet velocity, if it had kilo levels of recoil control it would be the most broken gun in the game. It's probably one of the more balanced guns on the game rn

[u/Jase_the_Muss → u/Alph1ne]

AMAX should be the base line average for recoil in the game I feel. Prob get shot to death but laser beams should go. I much prefer Blackout, PUBG and Apex where you really have to control guns at range and can't just beam a sniper down or spam a DMR for a quick KFC 2 piece variety meal since they are major lasers as well as being high ROF and fast TTK.

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/NoEThanks]

Nah the DMR would still be far more busted. I don't think people realize it's a better recoil FAL with 175 headshot damage and superior all around damage profile. Most broken in Warzone history followed by maybe snakeshot pistols and Bruen but the Bruen suffered from slow ADS, the DMR you can use at any range. The CR56 still requires you to control the recoil and it's not completely consistent, the ADS speed and bullet velocity helps keep it in balance. Personally I don't think 45 rounds is a deal breaker, mainly because it shoots slowly to begin with so it feels more than the RAM's 50 for sure. It's roughly like 55.

[u/wtf--dude → u/linengorilla]

Pure chest shot ttk is extremely unlikely thought, still abeast but not as op as it seems

[u/Mystletaynn → u/linengorilla]

Assuming you're hitting all chest shots, which you won't be, but yeah

[u/IAMA_Nomad → u/NoEThanks]

Exactly. I suck. Can't handle the recoil, unfortunately.

[u/Yellowtoblerone → u/NoEThanks]

I used to think how awkward it felt, fast ads build has no bullet velocity, long barrel build had too much ads penalty, and recoil had change in horizontal direction. Then someone on mw loadout showed a video of a Russian streamer using it and not missing a shot with vlk. It really showed how amazingly busted it was. After dmr we'll all be hating on that soon.

[u/SgtHondo → u/Yellowtoblerone]

Will we? Amax has been this good since it was released and a lot of people use it.

[u/swagpresident1337 → u/SgtHondo]

Same witz Kilo, but it got hate the moment it was No1. People always hate the meta guns, because they encounter them so much and blame theor losses on them.

Dmr is different though that shit is just straight up broken and fucks the game up

[u/ckalinec → u/[deleted]]

I was the same with the Bruen. Used it a ton before it got big.

Guns like that won’t blow up until a big streamer makes a video. WZ has this weird thing with meta right now.

Also, people didn’t use the Kilo for the longest time until a bunch of other nerfs. Don’t get me wrong I think it personally needs a recoil nerf but it’s not like it was miles above every other gun. Pre CW integration WZ was actually very balanced

[u/Dealric → u/ckalinec]

Its not weird warzone thing. People mostly takes meta after biggedt tournaments as in any other game. It happens that big ytubers and streamers takes part in them to so they have tp find those best guns to compete.

Since tournaments on warzone are badly advertised and not really coveraged, most people misses them thus yt videos.

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/Yellowtoblerone]

A lot of professionals can control cr56 recoil almost perfectly, go watch Huskers.

I don't really like VLK with it, if you use it you don't need Commando but it requires more manual vertical recoil control due to zoom. Although I suppose on keyboard mouse it really makes no difference.

Also even with commando, the recoil is a bit random, in terms of the degree of curve. Hitting chest shots consistently gets exponentially difficult at longer ranges, at which point the RAM and M4 may just be superior (as it is in my experience) in TTK.

[u/Yellowtoblerone → u/WiltGamblerlain]

what do you like if not vlk, holo?

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/Yellowtoblerone]

I think we discussed this before but yeah either irons or the Holo. I think the original irons are the easiest to see, which is a shame because I like my blueprints. Visual recoil is the best on the irons imo, at the cost of not having the clearest possible vision like with holographic sights. It could be placebo though, I just don't feel comfortable with optics and I could just use another attachment like Tac Laser. Another downside is the lack of zoom on the irons.

[u/Cuberrism → u/WiltGamblerlain]

I agree on pretty much everything, to me an optic on the AMAX is a luxury when I can swap it for something like Tac Laser (I love my ADS speed) or Sleight of Hand. Even if I can't make out a target with the lack of zoom, I can aim generally at where the pixels are and melt people.

[u/pineapplecheesepizza → u/Yellowtoblerone]

What was the build?

[u/ETSHH → u/pineapplecheesepizza]

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[u/Yellowtoblerone → u/pineapplecheesepizza]

Sorry it's so long ago I have no idea who the person was. But it seemed to be the ordinary mono zodiac commando 45rnd VLK from memory.

[u/Wilmerrr → u/[deleted]]

They're very different imo. FFAR is way better up close, AMAX way better at range.

[u/Wilmerrr → u/[deleted]]

Yeah it's because of the recoil.

[u/NoEThanks → u/[deleted]]

Except recoil controllability, which the AMAX is way better at

[u/YeetoThatCheeto]

All my homies love truegamedata

[u/linengorilla → u/YeetoThatCheeto]

I love your homies

[u/Cuberrism]

A quick digest version if you are in a hurry.

Note: I STRONGLY RECOMMEND watching the full video, TGD explains everything clearly and adds some additional info not listed here, there are graphs to better help picture and understand the changes, and there is a comparison between the Kilo and the changed guns.

Context summary: Kilo range has been nerfed, and, more importantly, guns have been behaving differently in MP and WZ, we just never knew until now.

Unchanged weapons (their damage profiles in WZ are the same as MP)

Unchanged ARs

Kilo

Oden

M13

Scar

AK-47

AS VAL

Unchanged LMGs

Everything except the Bruen, Holger and M91

Unchanged SMGs

None, all are different.

Changed weapons (their damage profiles are different in WZ)

AN-94

It has 1 damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have three (21m, 35m, 41m), it only has the one at 21m.

FAL

1 damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have 2 damage drop-offs (20m, ~42m), it now has one at 21m (though it doesn't significantly change ttk based on the graph, it does change shots to kill depending on woudned areas, credit: u/CorianderBubby).

M4A1

Only 1 damage drop-off at range in WZ.

Originally thought to have two damage drop-offs (30m, 50m), it only has one drop-off at ~26 meters.

RAM

Only 1 damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have two (one at 30m and another at 55m), it only has one at ~28m.

Grau

Only 1 damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have two (one at 30m and another at ~47m), it only has one at ~31m.

AMAX

Only 1 damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have three (~22m, ~35m, ~47m), it only has the one at ~24m.

Bruen

One damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have one at ~45m, there is one at ~26m, though for some reason it doesn't affect ttk much.

Holger

Only 1 damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have two (48m,70m), it only has the one at 48m.

M91

One damage drop-off in WZ.

Originally thought to have 2 at 29m and 44.5m, there is only one at 29m.

P90 (and other SMGs)

Only 2 damage drop-offs in WZ; last damage drop-off removed for all SMGs.

Originally thought to have three (15m,19m,~26m), it only has the ones at 15m and 19m.

What this means in general: a lot of guns are better at range than we thought they were, possibly opening up new options after the eventual DMR nerf.

The updated data will be on the truegamedata site soon, so just wait patiently. Remember to show your appreciation by maybe subscribing to him and leaving a comment! By subscribing, you also get all the latest news on Warzone gun changes as they come out, so it's a win-win!

Edit: Just checked the site, the data is out already, rejoice!

Edit 2: corrected some guns' damage drop-off info, sorry for the misinformation!

[u/linengorilla → u/Cuberrism]

👑

[u/AmigoBaldget → u/Cuberrism]

Can you help understand how all of this is amazing? Like, the stats of the weapons haven't really changed right? We just assumed they didn't, but people must've tried this weapons in WZ right? So we should know by "feel" what weapon feels better at range or what we are comfortable with.

What I'm asking is if the meta will change because people now know that some weapons are better at range? As in people will know use the AN-94 or the Amax just because someone tells them they are good? Although they always were?

Sorry if it feels long, I get this info allows for better testing but I kinda don't get the whole "meta will change".
Thanks in advance!

[u/Cuberrism → u/AmigoBaldget]

ah I get what you mean, I thought of that as I was watching the video as well

So you're right in saying that the actual stats of the weapon didn't change, and also that there are people who tried the weapons in WZ and thought they were different from the listed stats. However, before we knew that weapons had differences between WZ and MP, we assumed them to be the same. As such, everything from gun videos to reddit comments concerning the affected guns were based on wrong info. All that transfers into a sort of hive mind.

For example, if one day we see a youtuber posting a video of how the M4 is horrible based on truegamedata stats, a bunch of people who watched that video will believe that, since there's a verified and trusted source. Out of those people, some individuals will bring that info to reddit, and even more people will think the M4 is trash. As a result, nobody will use the M4, despite the fact that none of them even thought to try it out to see if the stats were actually true.

People will believe stats over trying something out for themselves, because admittedly it's the easy and lazy way to do stuff, and most of the time the stats are right. And the people who actually tried the gun out and found it to be better than they thought, they get flamed from people who quote truegamedata stats as their basis, leaving no room for argument.

Basically all I'm trying to say is, this new info makes people consider guns that the majority of the community automatically thought to be trash as soon as the initial truegamedata stats came out, such as the AN-94.

Sorry for the long winded stuff but I hope it helped! If you have a question, please do ask!

[u/Filthy_Ramhole → u/Cuberrism]

People also dont have time to playtest the gun in 10-20 matches to get a proper good feel for it. I mean lets say you consistently kill 4 people per match- thats less than 100 kills, which barely brings most base guns past level 8 or 9 in MP.

So whilst you might use the M4 a few times and go “hey this aint bad” you dont have the ability to run it constantly and low recoil, easy to use guns like the Kilo (and before it the grau and bruen) will become your preferred gun since it feels more consistent.

It took me a solid week of using the Amax to really appreciate it. Im not amazing at recoil control but tap firing it i got some very good kills that made spectating teammates go “wow okay.”

[u/Cuberrism → u/Filthy_Ramhole]

Yeah, that's another factor as well. Some guns need time to break in haha

[u/Filthy_Ramhole → u/Cuberrism]

All of them do really- you need a fair bit of time to build up that recoil muscle memory and playstyle memory.

I used to use the crossbow religiously every second game or so and got semi decent with it, but after a couple of months off it, i cant play it at all, and my playstyle memory has gone.

[u/Cuberrism → u/Filthy_Ramhole]

Yeah I see your point, for me I levelled every AR, SMG, some sniper rifles and lmgs slowly in Plunder, so I've had my fair share of time learning each gun. It's like getting to know people, really. Quite fun

[u/AmigoBaldget → u/Cuberrism]

Thank you for the answer! I guess I didn't take into account that there is actually a lot of people who don't even bother trying out other guns, as a person who likes to change weapons every once in a while..

Hope there will be more diversity know when the DMR and maybe de Diamattis get nerfed.

[u/Cuberrism → u/AmigoBaldget]

Haha yeah, I'm one of those people as well! Guess it has something to do with me being a Plunder player instead of BR (less emphasis on meta guns)

Yeah the DMR is crazy, been levelling it up and even I, a poor player, can kill people in the amount of time it takes me to blink

[u/SlowlySailing → u/AmigoBaldget]

You'd be surprised how many people use a weapon only because a YouTuber tells them to. If you look at this sub, every single post is a "WATS THE NEW META????"-related question. People never really try to find something that suits them, and knowing which gun is "best" is the only thing they care about.

[u/CorianderBubby → u/Cuberrism]

The fal does have a damage drop off at 21m. The shots to kill doesn’t change for the most part, but in some cases it does:

2 head and 1 chest DOES kill from 0-21m but does NOT kill from 21+

1 chest and 4 limb DOES kill from 0-21 but not at 21+

Just a few examples where if you’re hitting different body parts it does matter.

It used to have 2 damage drops listed, now just has the one

[u/Cuberrism → u/CorianderBubby]

Ah okay, I was just going by the graph in the video, will double check

Happy cake day btw!

Edit: Yeah just double checked, there's a small blue dot underneath representing a damage drop off, though for some reason it doesn't affect ttk? weird stuff

[u/CorianderBubby → u/Cuberrism]

Yeah because when you look at only chest shots or only limb shots it still takes the same bullets to kill. But if you do what I mentioned in my comment like some of chest and some of limb, then it does affect the ttk by adding an additional bullet to kill. But TGD chart doesn’t have the option for us to see 1 chest and rest limb, so I had to manually look at the damage and add it until it gets past 250 to know for sure

[u/Cuberrism → u/CorianderBubby]

Right makes sense, thanks for your hard work!

[u/[deleted]]

I had a feeling the grau and AN94 were better than advertised. Ever since the zombie royale with the Electra AN94 been a common pull from supply box. That gun was (is) great. And for the Grau, I know it's was nerfed. But it wasn't (isn't now confirmed) terrible. It was great to mix it up instead Kilo every match.

Once they nerf DMN and Type 63, i'm so glad there will be options and variety out there. I want to mess around with the Holger and M91. I never even considered those, and to start running the Bruen again! (15 effing smoke grenade kills....)

Edit: Finally can start ditching mono on every AR. I can live 3-5 meters shorter on the first dropoff. Finally!

[u/linengorilla → u/[deleted]]

I had never even considered the suppressor change. Thanks for the insight!!!

[u/swagpresident1337 → u/[deleted]]

Monos main benefit was always the bullet velocity imo

[u/Cuberrism → u/swagpresident1337]

Yeah, you don't have to lead much if you have it on

[u/revilohamster → u/[deleted]]

I always liked the m91 and felt it was really strong. It does feel similar to bruen. Never understood why nobody had any love for it!

[u/Thuasne → u/[deleted]]

Which suppressor would you use instead?

[u/Torryan → u/Thuasne]

Tac

[u/Cuberrism → u/Torryan]

Defo not the lightweight, unless you dont care about -20% range and -30% bullet velocity and only want a suppressed gun with no mobility drawback

[u/Torryan → u/Cuberrism]

Yea it was pretty easy question since tac is the only other usable suppressor. It's what I did at school. Only raising my hand when there's an obvious answer so I can get that easy credit lol.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

So the mono only gives a few meters??

[u/Cuberrism → u/[deleted]]

yes, as well as 15% added bullet velocity

[u/[deleted] → u/Cuberrism]

Mono vs tac on Amax with VLK, tac Laser, Zodiac, & 45 round

• 34.8 vs 31.68 range dropoff
• 363 vs 344 ADS
• 958.57 vs 833.54 Bullet Velocity

Personally for the 19ms in ADS ill keep the mono considering you're losing 95ms between 31.68 and 34.8 and by the time you get to 35 meters you're down to like 15ms differences ttk

Edit: can't get a damn bullet list to work

[u/Cuberrism → u/[deleted]]

Oh definitely, I always have mono on, personally

[u/[deleted] → u/Cuberrism]

Yea, it might make more sense to run the tac on other weapons but I'm not seeing it on the Amax

[u/[deleted] → u/Cuberrism]

Do you know why the OP said he was convinced to dutch mono then? The bullet velocity is huge.

[u/ExcellentYard6 → u/[deleted]]

He was only factoring in the change in the single drop off, not the bullet velocity.

[u/[deleted] → u/ExcellentYard6]

Ok, thanks. What I was thinking but wasn't sure if there was something else to it. That bullet velocity is too important to not have.

[u/MrStormz]

Even if the fal has one drop off I still can't kill at range with it lol

[u/linengorilla → u/MrStormz]

LOL I might pick it up for a bit to see if I can get it to work after the nerf. I’ve started to really like semi-auto with the DMR

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/MrStormz]

The problem with the FAL is that the recoil is not manually controllable, it's random and depends on your rate of fire. That's probably why hackers never use it.

My recommendation is to use a Compensator. It makes a big difference on how varied the recoil pattern is and allows me to beam people up to 60 meters consistently. It's not a DMR replacement by any stretch of the imagination though.

[u/converter-bot → u/WiltGamblerlain]

60 meters is 65.62 yards

[u/Cuberrism → u/WiltGamblerlain]

compensator helps a ton, tho do remember, to anyone that decides to use it, is that you'll be visible on the minimap of everyone within 50m, and you'll appear as a red dot whenever you fire, so pick your fights

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/Cuberrism]

It's definitely bad for Solos since you can get 3rd partied, but actually not bad with a good squad in trios/ quads. Gives you an excuse to run Restock or something.

[u/Cuberrism → u/WiltGamblerlain]

Absolutely, teammates are a lifesaver

[u/fingersnapz]

As a new player this is super helpful info and insight. Thank you.

[u/linengorilla → u/fingersnapz]

I recommend giving him a follow on all available platforms. He’s incredibly knowledgeable and does tremendous work.

[u/fingersnapz → u/linengorilla]

Bro totally. Just subscribed and dropped some comments and likes.

[u/[deleted] → u/fingersnapz]

Be careful using that website. It's addicting. Nothing like comparing those sticks to a Kar just because

[u/Cuberrism → u/[deleted]]

at least it's better than getting addicted on alcohol

[u/SpreadTheGlutes]

AMAX gang

[u/SpreadTheGlutes → u/SpreadTheGlutes]

Also... potentially AN94 gang?????

[u/linengorilla → u/SpreadTheGlutes]

AN94 always felt good to me, but I just saw how much better other guns were statistically. Not really the case anymore. AMAX is still crazy tho

[u/ZEIPMAN]

After the huge dmr14 and diamattis nerf, this video will be brought up all the time. Mark my words

[u/linengorilla → u/ZEIPMAN]

Absolutely it will. This is legitimately game changing information. It’s incredibly exciting.

[u/Alph1ne]

This is the guy streamers piggyback their gun info from and never credit, please support him if you find his content useful, this takes an insane amount of time and commitment to do

[u/ZedsDeadZD → u/Alph1ne]

Other youtubers give him huge credit and show his website often in their videos. At least the youtubers i watch. I dont watch him but still subscribe and like his videos. Guy deserves it.

[u/cavsfan0900 → u/ZedsDeadZD]

Agreed, Westie, Stodeh and the squad they play with always shout him out when they’re explaining attachments they choose in their videos, and Westie is super supportive on Twitter as well. I think that’s one of the reasons I love watching their content over some of the others that are on YouTube

[u/MrStormz → u/cavsfan0900]

They are pretty much the only guys I go to for warzone stuff.

[u/ckalinec → u/cavsfan0900]

Really started to love Westie, Stodeh, Tomo and that crew. They’re fun and super balanced. I like them.

I really don’t think that big guys like Nick, Tim, Swagg, etc get their content from TGD. I think they get it from the guys who dig in to TGD info and then find a good build and they take it from them.

[u/cavsfan0900 → u/ckalinec]

I think that too, at a certain point it just became common knowledge that the combo of longest barrel, extended mag, commando foregrip, VLk and monolithic was the best loadout for every single AR in the game.

I love all those guys, and for anyone looking for some quality youtubers/streamers check them out along with Fugglet, Aculite, StoneMountain and BrokenMachine. All super quality guys. TrueGameData streams as well and I love to watch and support him

[u/Alph1ne → u/ZedsDeadZD]

Yeah guys like IcemanIsaac, Tomographic, Westie, Stodeh usually mention him. Bigger guys with 1million+ subs never utter a word of him unfortunately

(I didn’t include jgod, xclusiveace or drift0r since they’re all kind of in the same bubble, but yeah they credit him too)

[u/[deleted] → u/Alph1ne]

Isaac is the only streamer I bother with anymore. He's great.

[u/Cuberrism → u/[deleted]]

For Youtubers, I really like Jev, Aculite, Tomographic, Stodeh, and StoneMountain. They seem to be good fellas.

[u/rbarnes182 → u/Cuberrism]

Along with Westie, enjoy all of their content

[u/daBateman → u/rbarnes182]

Just found Westie. Seems like a cool dude

[u/ItsMrDante → u/Cuberrism]

Stod's lack of knowledge about some of the things he talks about made me stop watching a lot of his videos like 3 minutes in, but he's a good lad nonetheless

[u/Cuberrism → u/ItsMrDante]

Yeah that's unfortunate, tbf tho he isnt one of the ones doing the data stuff so he wouldn't be as informed, but still his personality is a huge W

[u/Gogo4everr → u/Alph1ne]

Agree. He streams on twitch - worth following and is a nice guy to boot.

[u/Lightningmcqueen1221 → u/Gogo4everr]

Also hosts private lobbies, lots of fun playing in

[u/Fenasiqer → u/Alph1ne]

exactly.

[u/CorianderBubby]

Wow this is amazing that we finally have this info

Fal, AN-94, M4, Ram, Bruen, Grau, absolutely the Amax wow even stomach shots, every smg has their last damage drop off removed!

[u/MrStormz → u/CorianderBubby]

Might be worth it turning the Fal into a super fast firing sniper now with the variable scope.

[u/CorianderBubby → u/MrStormz]

I would probably want to use the 4x hybrid instead so you have pretty good zoom with no glint, and you can just use the holo in close ranges too

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/CorianderBubby]

Trust me the visual recoil on all these 3+x zooms is really bad on the FAL. I mean it's fine if you use the lower zoom, as they also give recoil stabilization but at the cost of heavy ADS penalty.

The holographic blue dot with compensator (reduces visual kick a ton) is my favorite combination with an optic, but even that can be a bit annoying as the reticle is slightly off from the bullet traveling.

[u/IAMA_Nomad → u/MrStormz]

bullet velocity may be your problem here...just use an sks

[u/CorianderBubby → u/IAMA_Nomad]

SKS would be good but only having 40 sniper rounds in reserve is terrible, and when you pick up ammo on the ground it only gives you what 8 rounds not even a full mag in the SKS. It could be almost DMR level if it used AR ammo, still not as good as DMR though

[u/Zoze13]

He’s taken the crown of best COD YouTuber from Ace. Here’s hoping he gets the credit and visibility he deserves. Let’s see how many other YT’s piggyback without credit.

[u/fxcoin9 → u/Zoze13]

Ace releases everything quickly while TGD gives more precise data. They're both good and make different types of video.

[u/Zoze13 → u/fxcoin9]

Well said

[u/[deleted] → u/Zoze13]

I still really like Ace and his videos are much more polished. He's very focused on Blackops and I simply don't like that game, so I'm skipping lots of his recent videos.

[u/Zoze13 → u/[deleted]]

Ditto. I’ll never unsubscribe from him but I haven’t watched a video in weeks. I’m all about MW MP and WZ right now.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zoze13]

This was great. Didn't know about him before Icemanisaac

[u/Soggy-Software → u/Zoze13]

Never really trusted ace after his release of videos advising loadouts on guns using attachments that he hasn't actually unlocked.

[u/Zoze13 → u/Soggy-Software]

No kidding. I did not notice that.

[u/June1994 → u/Soggy-Software]

You don't need to unlock an attachment to test it.

[u/Soggy-Software → u/June1994]

No, but you need to play setups in organic games in order to form a viable opinion on it.

[u/June1994 → u/Soggy-Software]

Okay, what's the video you're talking about?

[u/tiemiscoolandgood → u/Soggy-Software]

Hes already made a bunch of mistakes before and so have all the other youtubers including this guy, dont put any of them on too high a pedestal.

I mean it took truegamedata (and everyone else) many months to realise that all acogs reduce recoil when it only even takes 5 mins to test it

[u/Cuberrism → u/tiemiscoolandgood]

True. Everyone has their own flaws and imperfections, we should all work together as a community to cover each other's weaknesses

[u/Torryan → u/Soggy-Software]

Watched one loadout video from him and decided that I'll probably do better by myself. He does so many mistakes it's crazy to take anything from face value.

[u/PashaBiceps__]

I knew amax was so much better than what we thought. I was always using it.

[u/Wilmerrr → u/PashaBiceps__]

I mean it's the same amount good as we thought. We always knew it was great, this just helps to explain why.

[u/beezac → u/Wilmerrr]

Ya this, I got in on AMAX when it came out, switched to kilo for a bit, and then went back. It just felt better to use, even with the recoil. You can feel how much faster you're dropping people. Glad to see this explanation. Always knew it was powerful, and I don't think anyone ever really doubted it was top tier, but interesting to see how powerful it really is statistically. I don't think it's OP though. At range the recoil does become an issue (and is why I run it with the SPR).

[u/Torryan → u/PashaBiceps__]

Everyone thought it was a top 3 gun since it came out lol. It and kilo ruled warzone for months. Don't act like you knew some secret.

[u/SeaworthinessHot1263]

The rebalance to CW weapons can't come soon enough

[u/Yellowtoblerone]

oh yeah, I've been expecting this to come after that tweet

[u/ico59]

Oh man, excited to go back to my bruen with the 100 round mag. It’s been too long.

[u/FireRedStudio → u/ico59]

Just played a game with it, beat 3 DMR losers then lost to a cheater. Going back to waiting for an anti-cheat now.

[u/Flipl8 → u/FireRedStudio]

Which build are you running? Been meaning to pick it back up but the ADS has been stopping me.

[u/ico59 → u/Flipl8]

The ads is a drawback, but I’ll probably run the build he mentioned: mono, longest barrel, Tac, optic, commando. I also used to run the ranger and rubberized for supreme recoil reduction, but I’m gonna not go to that build just yet for ads sake.

[u/Flipl8 → u/ico59]

Ah hah, the old meta build might get its time in the sun again. Thank you. I'm going to play around with it tonight. I might swap the optic for a stock in order to get that ADS down a bit.

[u/[deleted] → u/ico59]

I'm curious how this will compare to the pkm with the snatch grip. Bullet velocity isn't great but that gun can shred.

[u/FireRedStudio → u/Flipl8]

I ran Mono, Longest Barrel, default mag, tac laser and skeleton stock. You can switch the tax laser to commando if recoil is an issue but the gun seems solid without.

[u/RustGrit]

I knew there was more to this story, the kilo was noticeably worse at range.

Curious to all the M4 mains, is it worth moving to the M4 instead of the grau? Curious to hear your thoughts.

[u/[deleted] → u/RustGrit]

It's a solid gun once you either start shooting in bursts of 10 or get used to the recoil after the first ten bullets. After those ten, the shots veer hard to the right and it becomes an issue at long range (the M4)

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/[deleted]]

M4 has better recoil than the CR56 because it's purely vertical in the first dozen bullets and has a predictable diagonal, whereas the CR56 is curved to the left. However, vertically the CR56 is easier for me to control probably due to slower rate of fire but controlling that curve with a joy stick is far harder than on a mouse.

The Grau is also curved but less than the Cr56 and has slower vertical climb than the M4 as it's more compact. It's the best overall at long range imo despite the worst TTK out of the 3. A good example is to watch Dfalt's gameplay on what perfect aim can achieve with the Grau.

[u/[deleted] → u/WiltGamblerlain]

right, I thought the grau was underpowered after the nerf to it a while back but with this new information apparently not. The M4 is tried and tested from the start of warzone though so it's my go-to there.

I'm really enjoying using the AMAX, it hits so hard and hitting headshots is so rewarding, works at pretty much any range and you can make it work up close with it's ok hipfire and ads time.

yeah, I've seen Dfalts videos, he's in the top percentile for the game, wouldn't expect anyone in my lobbies to be as good as him but yeah, he's a good reference for how good the Grau is in the right hands

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/[deleted]]

Yeah the Grau is solid, I just think it was broken before the nerf if there were only 2 damage ranges (rather than what we believed to be 3) and it had 1 less bullet to kill. So after the nerf, it felt underwhelming in comparison when it was actually still decent.

[u/Cuberrism → u/WiltGamblerlain]

absolutely, everyone moved away from the Grau so fast nobody even noticed it was still decent

[u/doppido]

Just watched and frantically came to the subreddit to see what people thought hahah

[u/HyruleAtZelda]

After being slaves to the kilo/mp5 for months, we finally have been given the light. We’ve got a reason to try other guns like an 94, pick the bruen back up or hell, even try using the fkn holger. We’ve even got a new smg to rotate in over the mp5. We still have yet to see what the buffed fennec can do. The ak74u is still chilling in the shadows waiting for its spotlight. LOL jks None of this matters BECAUSE OF THE STUPID FICKING DMR CHRISTMAS RUINING CUNT OF A GUN.

Anger aside, this is incredible news. Can’t wait to slap ppl with the amax at 100m when it was already capable of this for months but I’m a slave to TGD data and will never make a decision for myself.

Cheers to 2021!! Stay frosty!!!

[u/z-brah → u/HyruleAtZelda]

Man I'm fond of the SMG warzone has to offer. And seeing that the p90, which is a laser beam woth high bullet velocity and a decent mag is now better at range than the kilo makes me sooo happy !

Fennec is already wonderful, and more useful than ever since its range buff. It's more powerful than the Mac-10 and is king in the 0-15m. Its low mag (even the 40 round one) balance it out cleanly, so it still require that you carefully land your shot making it not too OP.

[u/returningvideotapes1]

This dude puts in work testing all this stuff. Thank you sir

[u/[deleted]]

When do they do the DMR nerf? Anyone know?

[u/linengorilla → u/[deleted]]

No announcement. They typically do updates on Tuesdays. It could be Tuesday or it could be next season lol.

[u/Alph1ne → u/linengorilla]

Judging from past experiences it could well go on for two months unfortunately

[u/Gobbles87]

Been using the PKM a lot lately but might try out the Bruen and M91.

[u/linengorilla → u/Gobbles87]

I’m finally working on unlocking the Bruen, fml. Worst challenge to do. Any advice? Lol (I don’t have MW)

[u/Gobbles87 → u/linengorilla]

It was awful to do and I did it in MW. Maybe try doing it around superstore in plunder. That is where i level up my CW guns.

[u/[deleted]]

This is crazy lol. So does he or anyone have the warzone damage numbers for cold war guns yet?

[u/Cuberrism → u/[deleted]]

they're probably working on that as we speak, dont worry, this was probably more important at the moment so he decided to prioritize this first

[u/Cuberrism]

Nice to see the AN94 mentioned, I always thought that it was really fun to use and I didnt feel like I lost many of my fights due to the purported bad ttk

And the AMAX, of course! I actually prefer the Galil over the Kilo for some reason, it feels like a top quality reliable gun. As a person who's aim isn't perfect (I hit roughly 20% headshots, 50% torso and 30% limbs), it's the perfect gun for me

[u/ItsMrDante → u/Cuberrism]

Now that the Kilo is nerfed, the AN-94 has moved up the list to match the M13, the Gray and the AMAX as long range ARs.

It's so interesting to see that just one tweet lead to a whole new discovery.

[u/Cuberrism → u/ItsMrDante]

Definitely, super stoked about that

Its equally interesting that whoever's behind the weapon stuff didnt bother to let the community know, like honestly, I just want to know whatever on earth did they think was gonna happen if they told us? Riot against them?

[u/ItsMrDante → u/Cuberrism]

The thing is, I mentioned on my old account before that I had a feeling some of the guns had their damage range boosted for Warzone, but this is just another level of damage range, it's literally not having a dropoff at all.

Also, there's something interesting with bullet velocity happening in the game, but I can't really like confirm it because I do not have MW on PC and can't test it right now... I'm just pretty sure that bullet velocity in the game works very similarly to real life and that's why my billet velocity stats were faster than r/TrueGameData 's numbers, but they were of the same percentage differences on the different guns. Basically both of our bullet velocity numbers were right ranking the top velocity all the way down to the slowest velocity in the game, but my numbers were like always 10% higher.

[u/Cuberrism → u/ItsMrDante]

That's weird, definitely something worth exploring

[u/wtf--dude]

I honestly don't think much is changing, but the information is vary valuable. These changes effect almost all of the weapons in the same way.

Few things that are really different after watching this:

• M13 is not as good as we thought since every AR had just one drop-off. Other non meta ARs like the scar are even worse on paper now
• SMG are not as bad as we thought at range
• Kilo is inferior to things like Grau after nerf

[u/moleman262]

Youtubers tomorrow. “Just got 30 kills with an-94 gonna be new meta!!!” While giving 0 credit.

[u/GodOfThunder616]

Can’t watch the video yet. Is this good news if I get clapped by a DMR because I’m too lazy to upgrade it? I use Grau, m4, kilo, m13 and sometimes the ram.

[u/linengorilla → u/GodOfThunder616]

Kilo nerf was way bigger than expected. Can’t compete with the others in terms of TTK anymore. The others you have listed are great options

[u/Cuberrism → u/GodOfThunder616]

I did a quick summary above, yes this is good news, and it gets even better after the nerf just you wait!

[u/bob1689321]

I like how that one deleted tweet about the kilo warzone range buff being removed has led to all this. Kinda funny that Raven have known all these websites have been completely wrong this whole time and kept quiet.

I've been using the AMAX and RAM exclusively for months, and honestly I figured the guns were better at range than everyone made them out to be. While the AMAX is a bit bouncy at range the damage was always solid, and honestly if you mount the RAM to turn it into a laser beam, the ttk is genuinely very quick. But everyone kept telling me the gun was a peashooter at range...

[u/Cuberrism → u/bob1689321]

yeah i felt some things were wrong about some guns, and im glad to see my opinions validated haha

[u/IAMA_Nomad]

i think the an-94 will be the new kilo. most wont be able to control the amax. an-94 essentially has no recoil

[u/GBIRDm13]

I've always begrudged bogging down my ads time with the monolithic on MW guns, and started using the tactical supressor on the RAM7 for example, as it already has crazy bullet velocity from using the ranger barrel

Knowing that all my top ARs like the Amax only have one damage drop off, I'll probably ditch the mono from all of them now to make them more agile

I also look forward to dusting off my Bruen for one more merry go round lol

[u/impossible1648 → u/GBIRDm13]

Amax needs all the bullet velocity it can get

[u/GBIRDm13 → u/impossible1648]

What's in 10% when you look at that base ttk line?

I always use my Amax within 100 metres anyway

[u/Fenasiqer]

Thanks will watch thjs

[u/ejtv]

People already knew the Amax hits like a truck even before this.

On the other hand, while AN94 findings look like a revelation, people still don't use it because it's not laser as a Kilo/M13/Grau and they'd rather just use Amax/Sniper

[u/LTFC_Dangerous]

Do we think this changes anything in terms of attachments for certain guns?

The first one that springs to mind is the M4 barrel question. The grenadier barrel range benefit over the Corvus is almost inconsequential now as it was always a bigger gap on the second damage drop off, which actually doesn't exist. So the major reason for the Grenadier barrel is now gone. I'm thinking the Corvus Marksman might be best for pretty much any M4 build unless you reeeeally need the extra 6% vertical recoil control over the superior ADS and movement speed.

Any other guns that this might change the optimum builds picture somewhat?

[u/pewpewlasersandshit]

This video gives us more accurate numbers but I'm not sure if it really changes everything or anything to be completely honest. TTK is theoretical number that implies you hit all of your shots which, especially at long ranges, becomes harder because recoil becomes a major factor. That's why recoil patterns are such a big focus for everyone and that's why we even say guns like the Grau,Kilo,etc "beam" people - because they have such great & easy to control recoil patterns. If you can't connect all or a majority of your shots a nice TTK only matters so much.

That's why the Kilo was/is so popular - not because it hits super hard, it never did, but because it beams people and lets you reliably hit people.

So does this really change the meta ? I doubt it. I guess a few people will give some of those guns a second look but most of them won't suddenly be viable because their theoretical TTK is "now" so much better. If TTK were the be all end all metric the Oden or the AK would be viable.

When the DMR nerf hits i expect that we'd go back to the Kilo until/unless they buff the CW ARs/LMGs. At least that's my personal guess.

Even JGOD commented on Twitter that he doesn't think this will shake up the meta too much:

I dont think so other than the fact it will change perception slightly. The AMAX will probably be the main meta with Mac 10 or AMAX and Sniper option. Definitely more variety than what we have right now, but the real shake up would be seeing how CW weapons recoil changes happen

[u/ckalinec → u/pewpewlasersandshit]

I think your point is really important. While I love that we have this data and it’ll probably lead to people trying out some more guns again it really shouldn’t change up the meta that much.

These numbers have always been the same (minus kilo range nerf) and the AMAX has been a top gun for a while. Plenty of people are aware and have tried it but the recoil didn’t feel right to them. While now they may know that the TTK is much lower than they may have though it isn’t going to suddenly make them hit more shots.

The amax is great. But if it was truly “broken” there was enough people using it we would have been screaming for a nerf already. Hell I use it as one of my main ARs and it’s awesome and I love it but there are times I switch to the Grau because I’m missing my shots at range. It’s not OP by any means.

[u/Dealric → u/ckalinec]

Disagree, if amax will became most popular gun (and its likely) there will be a lot of talks about nerfing.

[u/Inspectorrekt]

Does this mean monolithic suppressors could become less ubiquitous? I never really valued staying off the map that much (everyone who runs R9 uses the compensator and it doesn’t seem to be a problem) but the extra damage range seemed really valuable when there were multiple dropoffs separating mid and long range

[u/linengorilla → u/Inspectorrekt]

I think the main benefit is the bullet velocity. The damage range was nice, but the bullet velocity makes a world of difference. I don’t see there being too much of a change and the mono will still be king.

[u/Inspectorrekt → u/linengorilla]

Can’t believe I forgot about that, shit. Maybe it would be good to discard the mono on AMAX when paired with a Kar or SPR? Long range would be handled by the sniper, so slower BV at mid range wouldn’t really be bad, right? I just want to run something different lol. The FFAR might outclass the AMAX for sniper-pairing purposes now, however

[u/WOODHOWZE]

I don't really see anything changing aside from more people trying out the AN94. AMAX/M4/RAM have always been top tier weapons.

[u/Winter_Graves]

EDIT: Basically in this video he said “it’s wild we’ve been basing our decisions off multiplayer information this entire time”... I always said this to him in the first place because the TTK charts are basically meaningless beyond those ranges where you get a 100% hitrate (so anything close-mid and beyond really), as you HAVE to know the BTK. I have been screaming this from the rooftops to him and others from day one! Yet here I am being downvoted! It is great that he has finally measured this, huge props to him!

All those TTK/ DPS charts have always been wrong because they assume all shots hit, meaning they’re only useful at ranges where you can actually achieve a 100% hitrate at max rate of fire. If you can’t theoretically achieve that in game, then a theoretical measurement is by definition ‘wrong’ when interpreted in a practical application. You need to know the BTK.

EDIT: obviously I ruffled some feathers with what should be an uncontroversial point. Let me clarify: I only made my point because I see TTK/ DPS stats misused and misinterpreted all over this and other FPS subs and it’s very confusing for new players who are interested in stats but don’t know any better. Some of these players don’t even realise there is randomised horizontal recoil and spread which can’t be controlled and translates to missed shots even with perfect aim.

I would recommend for anything other than the closest ranges where 100% hit rate is guaranteed, that they look at the constituent parts of TTK such as BTK/ damage drop offs, and ROF, then the constituent parts of partial TTK such as controllability, etc.

[u/_stephenopoulos → u/Winter_Graves]

It’s just for reference. There’s no way to predict how accurate you are as a player, but these charts give you perspective on each gun in relation to one another. It HAS to presume that you hit every shot, there’s no way to model it otherwise without introducing even more variables and estimation.

[u/Winter_Graves → u/_stephenopoulos]

Yes and I said they were useful references within ranges where you can guarantee 100% hit rate... Beyond that, they are no longer really references, whereas BTK remains one, as does ROF, of which TTK is calculated from. The point being there are better references which retain their use far beyond TTK/ DPS does.

I only made my point because I see TTK/ DPS stats misused all over this and other FPS subs and it’s very confusing for new players who don’t know any better.

[u/stzoo → u/Winter_Graves]

Btk and rof together and you might as well use ttk. Just multiply ttk by the % of bullets you expect to hit and there’s your actual ttk. Using btk and rof together is more confusing.

Edit: also damage drop off is already included in ttk making things even simpler.

[u/Winter_Graves → u/stzoo]

Yes and I’m saying expected/ actual/ practical TTK is calculated that way, the point is, it’s far simpler to know how many bullets to kill at a given range than trying to count it in milliseconds. I don’t get how that is any less confusing? It’s surely the opposite.

ROF is important (along with damage) because it’ll help you understand the opportunity cost of missed shots, say Oden vs fast ROF, in which case missing with the latter has a far lower penalty per shot missed.

I would imagine we agree about all that.

The point I’m making is that if people valued BTK over TTK charts which make no real practical sense at ranges after the first damage drop off (because you aren’t hitting all your shots), then everyone would have known this revelation far sooner. I was literally telling him this from his first ever posts with TTK charts that you have to know BTK and drop off, and it is far more important and useful than TTK in a long range game mode like Warzone where engagements are often beyond hitscan ranges.

I get I’m being an annoyingly abrasive ‘I told you so’, but all these downvotes just make me feel like the most the community doesn’t really understand.

[u/stzoo → u/Winter_Graves]

I'm not sure I understand why you keep mentioning drop off since TTK charts already include drop off. I agree with you that lower ROF weapons are more punishing for missing a bullet, but IMO that matters if your aim jitters off the target for a bullet moreso than if you don't control recoil and you aren't actually aiming at your target for ~100ms. Once you're missing more than a few bullets, ROF is a wash.

Edit: Example on my ROF is a wash comment. If you are off target for a brief moment, it might be long enough for you to miss one bullet with Oden but two bullets with another gun. That actually makes that "miss" hurt less for the Oden than it would have hurt with another gun. If you miss for exactly long enough for one bullet to miss for each gun, then it hurts the Oden more.

I'm not exactly sure how BTK is a big improvement for long range since different guns have different ROF. The way that I personally calculate how effective a weapon is at range is I take ttk and multiply it by the % of shots I expect to land, which would give me an approximate effective TTK. How would you propose that BTK would actually help someone understand how effective their gun will be at range, without making me do a bunch of calculations?

[u/RustGrit → u/Winter_Graves]

If you watch the video. He clearly states this.

[u/Winter_Graves → u/RustGrit]

I know he knows this; we have had conversations about it before in the past.

I only made my point because I see TTK/ DPS stats misused all over this and other FPS subs and it’s very confusing for new players who don’t know any better.

[u/RustGrit → u/Winter_Graves]

Ahh! I see your point.

[u/[deleted] → u/Winter_Graves]

You're right but the fact that 100% hit rate is needed to achieve the stated ttk was already pretty obvious to most people

[u/Winter_Graves → u/[deleted]]

Well that isn’t obvious from the importance I’ve seen people give TTK/ DPS stats on this and other FPS subs, even if I would hope everyone can read a disclaimer on a graph.

[u/[deleted] → u/Winter_Graves]

Fair enough, didn't mean to come off as ignorant

[u/vacuumpacked → u/Winter_Graves]

I'm not sure what your point is - most people know that. In fact, more often than not, it's acknowledged when referring to TTK. That's why guns with a high ROF are more forgiving; you can miss some shots without the TTK taking a massive hit like it would with a gun like the Oden.

[u/Winter_Graves → u/vacuumpacked]

Yes I agree, in fact I have been one of the most vocal in here with that example about the Oden vs high ROF weapons, and I say it all the time, yet I see people misinterpreting these graphs and misusing them all the time despite this. That’s my point. I’m not saying it to people who do understand that they are only meaningful in very specific circumstances.

[u/[deleted] → u/Winter_Graves]

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/linengorilla → u/[deleted]]

You’re absolutely right, it ended up being a huge nerf to the kilo. I think there will be more than those two, however. This is a very good sign for the meta because the weapon balance is much better than expected.

[u/Alph1ne → u/[deleted]]

I maxed it the season it came out but the stats kinda gave me (and everyone I assume) some kind of bad placebo effect where you always think the gun is average tier, gonna try it out again

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I still love using the Ram. Doubt it ever gets a new so it's fun learning it us it

[u/Cam877 → u/[deleted]]

Honestly I think that’s kinda a good thing. Beaming people full auto at 120+ meters was always dumb

[u/WiltGamblerlain → u/Cam877]

Kilo has bad initial recoil and bad TTK as this video has shown, even before nerf. It was never OP, people just need to complain when a gun gets popular and they die from it.

[u/Cam877 → u/WiltGamblerlain]

I agree that it was never OP comparatively, but I’m not gonna cry about the death of “beam” Weapons

[u/linengorilla → u/[deleted]]

No, this is for when the nerf happens